Free will and determinism

[partinobodycular]

You can't call subconscious decisions as being made by the mind. Your mind is the conscious part of your brain. The first dictionary definition: the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought.

Sorry, I'm gonna call you out this time. You got to define 'determinism', but I'm not gonna let you define 'mind'.

Wikipedia: Mind

The mind is that which thinks, feels, perceives, imagines, remembers, and wills. It covers the totality of mental phenomena, including both conscious processes, through which an individual is aware of external and internal circumstances, and unconscious processes, which can influence an individual without intention or awareness.

Personally, I'm not sure that my conscious mind can take credit for much of anything. On some level it seems to be in charge, but on most levels... not really. Take for example that 'inner monologue' that keeps running around inside my head, who's steering that darn thing? Because sometimes I wish that it would just shut up. And then there are other times when I think that it keeps running even when I'm sleeping, because I'll wake up with a brilliant idea just floating there inside my head, with a note that says "You're Welcome (The workhorse of this ship)".

It's not up to you whether you like it or not. From here: Your taste preferences could be down to your genes, new study reveals

I agree, there's a lot of stuff that I'm not consciously in control of, but by golly they're still on me, as if I can disavow them because "the devil made me do it". Make no mistake about it, I definitely have genetic predispositions, biases, and learned behaviors, but I still have the ability to overrule all of them and do whatever the heck I please.

And that my friend is free will. Evolution may have designed all of these nifty neato behavioral control mechanisms, but it did put a captain in charge of this ship... and it's me.

 

[partinobodycular]

"The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a heav’n of hell, a hell of heav’n. What matter where, if I be still the same"

Hmmm... that Lucifer sounds like a pretty bright guy.

 

[QvQ]

Hmmm... that Lucifer sounds like a pretty bright guy.

Lucifer
"We shall be free; th’ Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav’n."

Lucifer was still in hell no matter whether he affirmed or denied it
Did he have the free will to change his mind?
"what matter where if I still be the same."

 

[Neogaia777]

Why "requires submission" if submission is the only option?
Rebellion requires conscious and a conscience.
Trees submit.
The Book of Job seems to indicate that a man can either affirm or deny.

Man has freedom of conscience to affirm or deny ?

Since we are quoting literature and films
In Milton's Paradise Lost, Lucifer is cast into hell.
Lucifer states:

"The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a heav’n of hell, a hell of heav’n. What matter where, if I be still the same"

Paradise Lost, Book One, lines 254-263

Whether someone either affirms or else denies, etc, is also still only a denial of the truth (which doesn't change the truth), and is also still only due to the way he or she was made to go/choose (or will go/choose in the future) according to the laws/rule/will/law of the One who already decided/knows/always knows/always only chooses/made, etc.

 

[Neogaia777]

The thing is, I don't wish to reign anywhere, nor do I wish to serve anything other than what's cited in Micah 6:8... to do justly and to love mercy.

Now some might think that I've left something off of that quote, but I don't think so, because I think that the third thing is redundant.

Redundant if you truly have the other two? I maybe might be able to agree with that maybe? But you can also wish to be humble, or walk humbly, and it also be entirely for your own benefit, or wholly self-serving, etc, because it can help you be/keep/stay out of a whole lot of trouble, or save you from a lot of, what might have been completely unnecessary, heartache/heartbreak with a lot of, or quite a few things.

Take Care.

 

[Reneep]

This reply will mostly be for the believers/religious.

You cannot believe in free will and also believe that there is a 100% fully omniscient being.

If someone, even a God/god, doesn't know with 100% certainty which way all choices are going to be made or happen or go with 100% certainty, then it is some other lesser percentage of two or more different possibilities, and they don't know which way for sure it is going to go with 100% certainty. It's basic mathematics. And basic logic. And basic mathematical laws/rules when it comes to probabilities and possibilities.

In the movie Matrix, (the second one), Neo tells/asks the Oracle how he can make a choice if she already knows the outcome of it, etc, and this is because that is always 100% impossible for any being. The two just simply cannot coexist with any being, in any reality, etc.

But besides all of this, there is also plenty of other evidence that the universe/this reality is entirely 100% deterministic. It's just evidence that a lot of people deny due to their own rebellious nature most usually. It requires submission to something, and a lot of people just don't like that most usually.

God Bless.

I think you are wrong. You see there is no love without free will, there is no real emotions without love as the motive. GOD IS WILLING TO RISK SO THAT HIS CHILDREN WILL LEARN TO LOVE, TRUST, SHARE CARE ALL OF THE GOOD THINGS HANG ON OUR ABILITY TO LOSE IT AND CHOOSE IT. AND YES THE END IS DETERMINED, BUT HE NEEDS YOUR FREE WILL TO GET TO THE BEST END.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think you are wrong. You see there is no love without free will, there is no real emotions without love as the motive. GOD IS WILLING TO RISK SO THAT HIS CHILDREN WILL LEARN TO LOVE, TRUST, SHARE CARE ALL OF THE GOOD THINGS HANG ON OUR ABILITY TO LOSE IT AND CHOOSE IT. AND YES THE END IS DETERMINED, BUT HE NEEDS YOUR FREE WILL TO GET TO THE BEST END.

Emotions are overrated. And real true love is not something you feel, but is something you do, etc. Or in God's case, choose to do specifically, etc. And that was in creating or making specifically for God the Father specifically, etc. And all of our choices/emotions/feelings are null and void and are irrelevant upside or compared to that, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Reneep]

Emotions are overrated. And real true love is not something you feel, but is something you do, etc. Or in God's case, choose to do, etc. And all of our choices/emotions/feelings are null and void and are irrelevant upside or compared to that, etc.

God Bless.

The Joy of the Lord is our strength, none of these verses will be if both determinism and free will do not exsist together, Isa 51:3 , 51 :11, Jer 33 :11 just to name a few such verses, God is bigger than our thinking

They both exsist together in Him, if He is not in us we are not his children .we must understand both and operate from both or we are not doing / in his will. That is what love is. It is Father who does not force us to do his will on his time.. but allows us to come to him for his perfect love , so that we are operating from his perfect love. That balance between knowing He has them and still needs me to chose to do what he asks for them .

 

[Neogaia777]

The Joy of the Lord is our strength, none of these verses will be if both determinism and free will do not exsist together, Isa 51, Jer 33 :11 just to name a few such verses, God is bigger than our thinking

They both exsist together in Him, if He is not in us we are not his children .

The two cannot coexist. Refer back to some of my other posts from earlier.

And as for us and our "feelings", some of them can feel good, and God made for us to be able to feel/experience them, and they can sometimes be a source of temporary strength, etc, but they also have nothing at all to do with the subject of free will and God's predermining/already knowing/foreoradining, or predestination, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Bradskii]

...but it did put a captain in charge of this ship... and it's me.

Sure. But can a captain do anything he wants? Obviously not. How he steers the ship depends on the crew, the wind, the tides, the nearby land, other ships, the type of ship, the size and number of the sails, the time of day, his intended course, his knowledge of his position...The list goes on. And then,after he takes all that into consideration, all those limitations, then he has to decide where he wants to go.

Is he just going to sail around randomly or is there a reason he sets off on a particular heading? What determines his course?

 

[partinobodycular]

What determines his course?

After taking all those things into consideration... he does. Remember that we've already determined that it actually comes down to a choice between the things that he desires and the things that he doesn't. Like choosing coffee over Earl Grey. You choose it because you like it, or because it's simply part of your routine, or who knows why. But the point is that it's factors internal to you that are making that choice.

How is that not free will?

 

[Neogaia777]

After taking all those things into consideration... he does. Remember that we've already determined that it actually comes down to a choice between the things that he desires and the things that he doesn't. Like coffee or Earl Grey. You choose it because you like it, or because it's simply part of your routine, or who knows why. But the point is that it's factors internal to you that are making that choice.

How is that not free will?

Because everything that happens or goes on within us internally, is not random, and also goes on/behaves according to the laws of determinism probably. And this even includes not only all your own choices, but also your very own feelings and thoughts even, which are not random, but all always happen/go depending on what was already there/present before it/them already, or IOW's, always deterministically.

 

[Bradskii]

After taking all those things into consideration... he does. Remember that we've already determined that it actually comes down to a choice between the things that he desires and the things that he doesn't.

It's a choice between what he would like to do, that is what he wants to do, and what he prefers to do.

Like choosing coffee over Earl Grey. You choose it because you like it, or because it's simply part of your routine, or who knows why. But the point is that it's factors internal to you that are making that choice.

Don't make me keep repeating myself. I've explained why you might like the taste of something. And it's not a choice.

How is that not free will?

Because the decision is determined by causes over which you have no control. The cap'n makes the decision to head east because he needs to get his cargo from NY to London. It's his choice. He made it. He's in control. He can head in any direction he likes. But what he decides to do is head to the UK. That's his preference. He might want to sail down to Rio. He might want to drop anchor and do some fishing. But he prefers to get his job done and that determines his actions.

 

[QvQ]

What determines his course?

The ability to confirm or deny any one or all possible courses would be free will.
Certainly, one course might put him on the rocks and another course would put him out of a job
Free will does not mean that what is willed is possible of execution, only that the choice is recognized, confirmed or denied.

 

[Neogaia777]

What determines his actions is the totality of circumstance within that moment in time
The totality of circumstances within the Next moment in time is what will determine the next subsequent action.

So can he ever choose otherwise?

 

[QvQ]

So can he ever choose otherwise?

Lucifer said "What matter where if I still be the same?"

That is an interesting question

 

[Neogaia777]

The ability to confirm or deny any one or all possible courses would be free will.
Certainly, one course might put him on the rocks and another course would put him out of a job
Free will does not mean that what is willed is possible of execution, only that the choice is recognized, confirmed or denied.

Why did you edit/delete what I quoted that you said?

Anyway, here is a scenario, say he choses to crash his ship into some rocks just to prove that there is a such thing as free will, etc. Well, after he lost his job and was questioned about it, we find out he only did that due to a conversation he was having with another person right before that about determinism/predestination and free will, etc. So that we find out the only reason he did it in the end is only just because another person told him he couldn't do that and it was shown to him very, very clearly that there was no such thing as free will, and he didn't like that, etc. And so he crashed his ship into some rocks to prove that there was free will, etc. But the only reason he did that was because of the conversation he was having right before that that he really, really didn't like about determinism/predestination and free will, etc. Anyway, do you see where I am going with this? And metaphorically speaking, there are a lot of people who do just this, or something very similar to this, upon having conversations like these, or similar conversations about this subject that happen to go like this, etc.

God Bless.

 

[QvQ]

Why did you edit/delete what I quoted that you said?

I edit and edit and edit
I realized that I hadn't addressed your question which was "could he do otherwise?
I often edit or delete posts for reason like..not relevant..or such
I stand firmly behind that original and thank you for answering

Look at my answer that I rewrote. It is more correctly addessed to your previous post

 

[Bradskii]

The ability to confirm or deny any one or all possible courses would be free will.

Why did he decide to sail east?

 

[QvQ]

Why did he decide to sail east?

Because the south seas were calling him and he was lost in the early morning fog.
It was the next port of call. He was motivating into the future

The current situaltion was changing and he changed accordingly
When the fog lifted he corrected course based on new information.

The time they were a'changing and he must needs change right along with them