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Free will and determinism

CoreyD

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I'm not talking about how you reason. I'm talking about the reason (noun) why you do something. What caused you to do it. So if you decide to do X then I want you to tell me what caused you to do X. What was the reason you did X.
I know that sir.
Are you having problems understanding what I say?
I know that we are on the internet, and there are a variety of persons from different parts of the world, so I hope English is not a challenge for you.
I could try to be more precise if that is the case.
Please let me know.

You can pick any example. I mean , this isn't difficult...
I gave several examples... which you responded to.
@Aaron112, I should take your advice. It does not work otherwise.
 
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CoreyD

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This is not a theological discussion. And the definition that you yourself gave is the one being discussed:

'Free will is the ability to make choices, regardless of the determining factors... whether past, present, or future.'
Your OP says...
All decisions we make are determined by existing and prior influences. There has been an effectively infinite chain of events which has resulted in me sitting here writing this sentence. They have all led to this point. From the major events - I was born at a specific time and place, to the minor ones - it's raining today, to the seemingly inconsequential - I broke a string on my guitar last night.​
There is no way that existence cannot be described other than determined.​
The question is then not whether we make decisions that affect the trajectory of future events - I obviously decided to do this rather than something else. But if free will is defined as the ability to make decisions that are not determined by prior events and we could rerun the last hour exactly as it happened and make a different decision, then something actually needs to be different. But rerunning it exactly as it happened means that nothing is different.​
So free will cannot be compatible with determinism. And if existence is deterministic then free will is an illusion.​

How does this agree with a decision - a choice made, not because it was determined by an antecedent cause, but based on a will generated from a functioning cause?
For example, a functioning cause that has no cause cannot be affected by any cause.

Concerning free willed agents, the Bible says at Hoses 14:4, I will heal their apostasy; I will freely love them, for My anger has turned away from them. Here, the Hebrew word nedabah- Freewill offering, voluntary offering, willing gift. is used when referring to an uncaused agent.

In the case of human free willed agents, the functioning cause is the character at work - the heart, which is guided by principle that allows one to evaluate and determine the best choice, from the options available.
Such a choice may or may not be determined by antecedent causes.

In either case, a person can learn something, that prompts them to make a decision to do something that is not based on any series of past causes, but rather the person's developing character (the person within), which is the functioning cause, that may be shaped by past (antecedent causes), but does not render their free willed choice void, nor determined.
In this case, free will would be compatible with antecedent causes.

Your argument is, that antecedent causes are what determines the choice made, rendering free will obsolete, and that is not compatible with the Bible's definition.

Please show otherwise, in a clear and coherent way.
 
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Jo555

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I was going to say it's simpler than that. But you are right in some circumstances. Obviously there's no conscience involved in me having tea as opposed to coffee or deciding not to go to the beach because it's raining. But there may well be times when your conscience plays a part in your decisions.

To use an example that's already been raised, you might not want to put yourself in harms way and get shot at in a war situation. So you'd want to avoid that. But others are going to war in effect to protect you and your family. So...guilty conscience? Quite possibly. So you might prefer to 'do your duty' as opposed to wanting not getting shot at.
Yes, if it is based on guilty conscience, or even duty that is not propelled by the love of God, then that is morality from my position.

I feel like i would be repeating myself too many times if i went into how this was never God's design for us, but worked within man's disobedience to eat of the wrong tree.

As I've said before, not sure if i would have done differently if i was in their condition at the time, made in the image of God, but without the goods to go a different route.

Could they have gone differently. I see a possibility because although they were not in Christ, they were without sin, from my perspective. The book of Romans covers this area. Just can't remember the details right now. I know as an atheist that is of no value to you so let us see if i can describe my thought by the unseen properties that i think we all know exist.

What I'm picking up from you Bradskii, is that you can see how flaws can develop with that system (morality), and you are absolutely right.

Sonetimes our knowledge is borrowed knowledge from another's flawed perception ... Think we went into this one in the past posed as the question then why do Christians disagree?

Because we don't always get our belief systems from God's Spirit, but prior belief systems and our own flawed perception by what has shaped our lives...am I speaking determinism? By golly, there is hope for me yet.

I realize this may be a concept difficult for an atheist to grasp, but just because we often count on flawed systems to get to the truth, it doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist.

Atheist will look to seek that truth through the sciences ... And you can find God there too if one remains open; if one goes in without looking to prove their belief systems, but remain open to the reality that may be revealed by God.

And as Christians this is, imo, a great approach too (remaining open). Although, we will look for the truth in his Word because we believe his Word is divinely given from Him. But we can find truth in his creation too. Jesus often used natural properties to describe spiritual properties. It all testifies to the existence of God.

Now some of us will hold a belief system because for us it is so deeply imbedded in us. For instance, i, as a Christian have had God literally reveal his love to me, more than once. That seed is so deeply rooted in me, not because I did it, but He did it. No one can snatch that from me. For me God's love is as real as an atheist sees a mountain and believes in mountains. No one can tell you there is no mountain for there is a mountain. In the same way no one can tell me that God does not love me. It is as tangible to me as that mountain is to you.

But I realize that is a reality atheists do not recognize so i would advise that if you want to know the truth of whether God exists or not, you can keep digging into his creation and the unseen properties that exist. As ling as you remain open, God can meet you there.

I can't leave God out of the conversation because it is at the foundation from which I stand, but just as i see truths in what you say, I'm sure you can find some truths in what i say

And although i speak this way, i am not trying to convert anyone. I love digging into the same topics, and also with others, as my comprehension within the conversation allows, as i can see how God uses it in my life to further my understanding of things.

That piece on choice i shared i wrote about ten years ago or more. This stuff has always interested me, especially when we find something doesn't seem to work with what i know of scripture. I take it up in prayer and ask God to enlighten me. As He walks me through i often see how He uses his Word and life itself to bring in that revelation.

Sometimes the answer doesn't come right away because He may first have to chip away at a false reality we have, then He starts to construct on his truth.

I think the sciences seek to do the same and i believe as long as we remain open to the possibility of there being a God, we can find Him there, as He reveals in his time and way because He does have a corporate goal too.

But I'm really branching out now and growing short on time again so let me just say that, unfortunately i see many Christians stuck in morality instead of moving forward into the life we were called out to live in. Now, this awakened conscience is something we have to wrestle with (for lack of a better word) because of the fall, until we are fully grown in Christ, something we come to as we grow together.

I really didn't mean to get into all that i wanted to speak more on your example. Hopefully, when i return i can stay on track.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Free will in the Bible is not the same as free will, in philosophy and science.
Free will involves doing things - not under compulsion, but willingly, from the heart - one's desires.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
A dog willingly, even cheerfully, loves his master. Some would gladly die for or fetch the slippers for the master, or herd the sheep with ludicrous enjoyment! It always does what it prefers.

The question here isn't what option each one does, nor what he should do, even whether what he does is under obligation or compulsion, but WHY they choose whatever they finally choose. What the OP suggests fits Scripture perfectly (other than failing to give credit to God as the first cause of all long (or short) chains of causation).
At Hoses 14:4, the Hebrew word nedabah- Freewill offering, voluntary offering, willing gift. is used.
I will heal their apostasy; I will freely love them, for My anger has turned away from them.
Notice that this is the only kind of 'freewill' mentioned as such in Scripture. But what the Christian proponents of "libertarian freewill" are talking about is the everyday "willed" decision-making. As you said, quite a different thing.

As for your quote of Hosea, the context rather obviously indicates not that God has 'libertarian freewill' (though he is the only being who does), nor even that he loves them cheerfully (though I should think that can be assumed, since he is God), but that he will love them without reservation, not taking into account their past apostasy.

But yeah, it is a different discussion, not about whether people can do anything uncaused to do it.
Since this is not the subject being discussed here (as the Bible is unimportant to the OP), but rather a philosophical concept that is defined by a philosophical worldview, I can see why the OP thinks it does not exist.
After all, it's only in the mind of the philosophical thinkers.
It is said that only philosophers and theologians have a problem defining free will. There is a truth to that, but it doesn't mean that anyone else's definition is valid. It only means they don't really try for accuracy, but instead assume that their point-of-view is valid, because it is how things seem to them.
 
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Mark Quayle

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How does this agree with a decision - a choice made, not because it was determined by an antecedent cause, but based on a will generated from a functioning cause?
Only first cause is a functioning cause without antecedent cause.

"A will generated from a functioning cause" is in full agreement with a the ability to decide "- a choice made, not because it was determined by an antecedent cause". It is not one or the other. It is both. If I didn't know any better, I would have concluded you were in full agreement with the OP and were posting rhetorical questions.
For example, a functioning cause that has no cause cannot be affected by any cause.
That is correct. Thus, there is no such thing, unless it is first cause. And I think you would agree, there can be only one First Cause.
 
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Bradskii

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If Free will is the ability to make choices, regardless of the determining factors... whether past, present, or future, then free will exists.
Your argument is that it does not. So something is wrong with your argument.
This couldn't really be any clearer. If you can make a decision that is not based on any determining factors, on any antecedent conditions, then you have free will. All you need to do is give me a decision that fulfills those criteria and you win the debate.

Any time that you're ready...
You are misunderstanding.
I'm afraid it's not possible for me to make it any clearer.
 
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Bradskii

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Have I not done that?
No.
Are you saying you do not understand how a person's thought process works to evaluate conditions that can exist, or will exist, based on what one decides to do?
Yes, I do. But I want to know how you think it works. Anytime you're ready...I'll wait here while you formulate an answer.
I have repeatedly shown you free will in reality...
Which, according to the definition that you have given yourself, you have not done.
 
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Mark Quayle

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CoreyD said:
There are just two problems with this meshing with the OP's argument... Well three problems.
  1. The influence of holy spirit on an individuals choice, is not an antecedent cause.
Mark Quayle said:
Excuse me??? How not?
Show me please, or rather, explain, how this is antecedent.
John 16:13 - However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.
I can't imagine how NOT! He is guiding, and by your own words, influencing! How is that not causal? Every influence, internal and external, is causal, the aggregation of which determines what one finally most prefers at that moment of decision.
Also this:
Philippians 2:13 - For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good purpose.
Same thing. Your will is literally worked to be what it is and does, and in this case, for God's purposes. If God works in you to will, how is that possibly not causal, concerning your will?

Mark Quayle said:
If it is influence, it is causal in some regard or other.
No, but, how is a cause that has nothing to do with past causes, support of your argument, anyway?
What cause would that be? The only cause that I am aware of that has nothing to do with past causes is First Cause. But I don't see what you are even talking about here. Were we talking about First Cause? Did I mention something else that could be considered an uncaused cause?
An influence does not cause anything. An influence has the potential to affect, but it does not drive one in that direction. It's the will of the individual to be guided by the influence, or not.
Of course the will can choose to reject, rebel against, consider or even accept influences. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying that the will, doing that, is nevertheless caused to do as it does, by antecedent causes --genetics, upbringing, current events, past events, feelings, flu, toothache, depression, hormones, congestion and drugs, you-name-it, influences all. No one of them perhaps directly being THE cause, nor even two, but all of them together bringing about the will's [instantaneous] preference(s) in that moment of decision.

Frankly I see this as more than obvious, almost as if we are talking two sides of the subject. I don't think you can show me how anything can happen uncaused, except first cause, nor, maybe more specifically at issue here, how anyone can even make a decision at all, if there is no cause, i.e. 'reason why'. And I don't think you would claim that there is no preference for one choice over another, even though that preference may not necessarily be observable or accounted by the chooser.
For example, the Devil and his agents influence people to disobey God, and many choose not to.
Similarly, the influence of God's spirit in people's life, is often opposed, rejected, etc., by that person's desires.
James 1:13-15
13 Let no one being tempted say, "I am being tempted by God." For God is unable to be tempted by evils, and He Himself tempts no one.
14 But a man is tempted, being drawn away and being enticed by the own desire.
15 Then desire having conceived, gives birth to sin; and sin having become fully grown, brings forth death.
Of course. That doesn't mean that the totality of influences are the question of that final decision, but rather, that they cause the preference(s) at play in that moment of decision. Lol, even at the moment of deciding to reject or consider etc this or that influence, (if we are even conscious of its presence as an influence), that decision too is made by what the person prefers at that moment.



Mark Quayle said:
But, it is quite a bit deeper than that. The Holy Spirit changes the nature of some, from bondage to passions and desires, to the ability to choose according to morality and further "promptings" (shall we say). Yet, even that ability is still going to play out according to what the believer prefers at whatever moment (s)he makes that choice.
Huh?
Okay, let me chew over that.
The holy spirit changes the nature of the person... so the person is of a different nature.
So the nature the person now has, makes him a robot? No, the person can still act freely, but his choices are not free willed. His choices are determined.
Yes, still determined precisely as God intended from the beginning. (But bear in mind, against the objection probably welling up, a robot has no will.) His choices are, whether intentional or not, whether for God or in rebellion, whether conscious or not, whether after integrity-driven consideration or not, precisely what God planned to happen. The will is not free in the definition that seems most common in this thread.
Did I understand you correctly.
If I misunderstood, I am sorry. Please correct me, and explain even simpler.
I can't find, by the link, quite what led to my remarks, to be able to explain more simply, but generally, I'd say though there are specific differences between the regenerate and the unregenerate, the principle always applies to both, that their decisions are always according to whatever their preferences are that moment of decision.

It might be worth mentioning here, that the infinite power of God is relevant in his ever so light and subtle touch. He need not strain to get what he has in mind. He need not overpower the will, for the will to be nevertheless clay in the potters hands. ("The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." (from Proverbs 21).)
We agree they do not believe in God, nor gods, nor holy spirit.
Or, as they sometimes put it, 'fail to believe' in them.
 
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Bradskii

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So free will cannot be compatible with determinism. And if existence is deterministic then free will is an illusion.​

How does this agree with a decision - a choice made, not because it was determined by an antecedent cause, but based on a will generated from a functioning cause?

In the case of human free willed agents, the functioning cause is the character at work - the heart, which is guided by principle that allows one to evaluate and determine the best choice, from the options available.
Determining the best option is not indicative of a free will. You will always pick what you think is the best option. By definition, it will be the one that you prefer (not necessarily what you want, but I ain't going there again as you don't seem to understand the distinction).
Such a choice may or may not be determined by antecedent causes.
Then you'll be able to give me an example where it isn't.
In either case, a person can learn something, that prompts them to make a decision to do something that is not based on any series of past causes, but rather the person's developing character (the person within), which is the functioning cause, that may be shaped by past (antecedent causes), but does not render their free willed choice void, nor determined.
So you can learn something that changes your character and you then make different decisions? I 100% completely agree.

This is precisely why I asked you for your idea of what the thought process is when making decisions. If you had given that (you still can if you like) we might examine a case when the process changed. That is, you decided to do X one day, but then changed your mind and decided to do Y. And if I asked you why you decided to do Y, you might say, as you just implied: 'Because I learned something yesterday that caused me to make that choice'.

And I would then point out, rather obviously, that you learning something new was one of the antecedent causes that determined your decision. If I asked you why you decided to do Y instead of X, then saying 'For no reason at all. Nothing caused me to change my mind' then that wouldn't be true.

This happens to us all. We do not go through life unchanging. Life changes us. We experience something new which causes us to change. We learn something new that causes us to change. Someone puts forward an argument that we feel is compelling and it causes us to change. And what we learn, what we experience, an argument that convinces us, these are all the antecedent conditions that determine your choices.


Your argument is, that antecedent causes are what determines the choice made, rendering free will obsolete, and that is not compatible with the Bible's definition.
This isn't a theological discussion. You have been given, and have given the definition which has been used from Post #1.
 
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Bradskii

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I gave several examples...
And I just used one where you said that you might learn something which would cause you to change your mind. See above. Now the challenge is to give an example of a choice that you made that wasn't caused by anything.
 
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Mark Quayle

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CoreyD said:
An influence does not cause anything. An influence has the potential to affect, but it does not drive one in that direction. It's the will of the individual to be guided by the influence, or not.

It is difficult for me to understand how you can think that an influence only "has the potential to affect [the will]". If an influence is an influence, it has an effect. One influence is not all that drives one in whatever direction he ends up preferring. And some influences are, for all intents and purposes, driving one the opposite direction from what he ends up preferring.
 
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CoreyD

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This couldn't really be any clearer. If you can make a decision that is not based on any determining factors, on any antecedent conditions, then you have free will. All you need to do is give me a decision that fulfills those criteria and you win the debate.

Any time that you're ready...

I'm afraid it's not possible for me to make it any clearer.
You highlighted the problem.
If you can make a decision that is not based on any determining factors, on any antecedent conditions, then you have free will.
That right there is the problem.
Making an assertion stated as fact, and then asking everyone to accept the assertion on the basis that it comes from a philosophical worldview.

As long as you have that problem, your OP will forever run, with a demand to accept your assertion, and a demand to prove your assertion... neither of which will be fulfilled.
Yet, amazingly, an atheist will continue to stand behind his argument... never supporting it.
What's new?

No.

Yes, I do. But I want to know how you think it works. Anytime you're ready...I'll wait here while you formulate an answer.

Which, according to the definition that you have given yourself, you have not done.
Why wait for a repeat, when you can review what you have already been given, and read?
The problem you are having, is not accepting. The problem is not a matter of your not hearing.

Because you cannot accept that free will exists, regardless of the assertion that it does not, you think that until someone agrees with your assertion, they have not answered you.
Yet, you cannot prove your assertion to be true, and do not feel you have to.

Have you ever seen this played out, and who tends to do that?
 
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DennisF

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As I already predicted:


Your assumption is false. A cursory glance at Wikipedia, SEP, or IEP will show you this.
Good point. Causality is an instance of logical necessity but determinism is not. I will explain below.

I am wondering when someone will bring up the kind of argument that Donald MacKay, who was a professor of biophysics at Keele U. in England, made in the 20th century. Define "free will" in a certain precise sense, namely, that there cannot exist a physically deterministic prediction about what a choosing agent - call him Joe - will choose to do in the future that if disclosed to him, he would be both correct to believe and incorrect to disbelieve the prediction. The argument hinges on self-referencing logic because something Joe will do in the future affects him, the person about whom the prediction is made. I have a somewhat altered form of it here. A more casual (not causal!) explanation of it is as follows.

The Logic of Free Will​

The common difficulty in reconciling divine sovereignty, whether attributed to God or Nature, and human freedom of the will, is caused by the kind of logic employed in attempting to understand their relationship. We are acculturated to think in the logic of Western tradition, the propositional logic of Aristotle. This is generally quite beneficial, for it gives our thinking a formal framework of coherency. However, it has been understood for centuries that our familiar logic has its limits in helping us understand paradoxical concepts.

It is paradox, or more precisely, antinomy, that reveals limits to logic including scientific arguments. The Apostle Paul referred to an antinomy, a statement of a Cretan (Titus 1:12): Cretans are all liars, etc. Of course, “all Cretans” includes the Cretan who uttered the statement. Consequently, the statement must be false. But if it is not true, then Epimenides (the most likely Cretan to have said this) might have told the truth. Yet, if true, then the statement could not be true. Antinomies go around in logical circles like this and logicians consider them “logically indeterminate.” Their truth-value (true or false) cannot be determined. Logical indeterminacy appears in the understanding of the relationship between God’s sovereignty or Nature's determinacy and our free will.

In deference to those who have an unwillingness to accept God’s sovereignty as deterministic (that is, as determining all things, even the fall of dice), the weaker idea, that God-in-time can only foresee but not determine the future with absolute accuracy is a sufficient starting point. So let’s start with God, or for atheists reading this, some super-scientist who merely knows the future deterministically but does not determine it. (Such a view of God makes it difficult to know whether God or Nature is in charge of the universe. But that is another matter.) Furthermore, let us assume human freedom of choice, and in particular for Joe. God-in-time can then predict the outcome of future events involving choices Joe will make – for example, whether he will read this message, or accept the gospel or not. God watches and waits, and his predictions come true every time. The predictive performance is perfect.

Now, what would be the logical status of these predictions if he were to offer them to Joe? Is Joe bound by their predictive truth to believe them? If this deterministically true yet undisclosed knowledge of God were to be revealed to Joe, would Joe be mistaken to believe otherwise?

If Joe’s freedom of choice is understood in the specific sense that there cannot exist a prediction of Joe’s choice that would be unconditionally true for Joe, then the answer is no; there cannot exist a prediction about Joe which he would be both correct to believe and incorrect to disbelieve, if only he knew it. Let’s see why this is so.

If Joe is offered the prediction about a choice he will make, and he believes it, then the “Joe” who believes it is not the “Joe” described by the prediction. In offering the prediction to Joe, it changes Joe so that he is no longer the “Joe” of the prediction. The prediction does not take into account one of the critical factors about Joe, namely, his believing the prediction.

But God or a super-scientist can also take into account the effect that the prediction will have on Joe. Suppose further that God modifies the prediction to take into account Joe’s believing it. That way, when Joe believes it, the prediction remains valid. Joe’s believing it has been taken into account in it. But in this case, Joe would not be incorrect to disbelieve the prediction, because a “Joe” who does not believe it is also not the believing Joe described in it. For either prediction, whether the prediction is true or not depends on whether Joe believes it or not. Whether a given true undisclosed deterministic prediction is true or not is up to Joe.

In disclosing the prediction to Joe, God has interacted (“interfered”) with Joe, causing the otherwise true prediction to be “out of date” due to the interaction. God-in-time, in interaction with us, also participates in the logical indeterminacy that underlies Joe’s free choice. But only a God whose secret knowledge of all history is not disclosed to Joe, can know with certainty Joe’s choices. And Joe can know them, but only by knowing his own choices.

The scriptures present us with the curious fact that both “views” of God are needed to express his full “dimensionality.” It is not difficult to extend the above argument to allow for God-in-"eternity" (the Father, perhaps) to be the predestinarian of Calvinism, who causes all events by the counsel of his will, while also allowing for God-in-time (the Son, perhaps) in the incarnation, God who is closer to us than hands and feet. The scriptures describe the Son as the one who is in dialog with us, who is the mediator between us and the Father, through the Spirit. Even Christ claimed not to know the future, but only the Father knows, he said.

To fail to distinguish between God-in-time and God-in-"eternity" leads to the confused situation that I detect in the discussion in this thread. Even God cannot disclose to us foreknowledge of our choices that we would be both correct to believe and mistaken to disbelieve. It is simply a logical fact (though by a higher-order logic than that of Aristotle) that we can be free and God be sovereign.

Note that the above argument assumes free will and proceeds to show that it is not negated by physical determinism. It is a reasonable assumption because we live our lives on the basis of that assumption, and might wonder whether our scientific understanding of ourselves, based on physical causality, negates it. Causality that is deterministic only applies to open-loop systems, but once there is feedback, such as giving the prediction to Joe beforehand, brings in a different kind of logic that applies to such physical "systems" such as Joe. A certain level of self-awareness changes the whole discussion of determinism and free will of self-aware beings.

A dual kind of argument that assumes physical determinism and argues to a logical position of semi-decidability is given in my version of this argumentation about self-referencing logic in the above link.

This kind of self-referencing logic appears also in computer software - usually of the AI kind - and one must then ask if physical determinism applies to software. The discussion of determinism and free will is thus shifted up a gear or two!
 
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CoreyD

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CoreyD said:
An influence does not cause anything. An influence has the potential to affect, but it does not drive one in that direction. It's the will of the individual to be guided by the influence, or not.

It is difficult for me to understand how you can think that an influence only "has the potential to affect [the will]". If an influence is an influence, it has an effect. One influence is not all that drives one in whatever direction he ends up preferring. And some influences are, for all intents and purposes, driving one the opposite direction from what he ends up preferring.
See here.
Can a person have a negative and positive influence, and can the person choose between those, or ignore both and choose a path of their own making?
 
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Bradskii

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You highlighted the problem.
If you can make a decision that is not based on any determining factors, on any antecedent conditions, then you have free will.
That right there is the problem.
Making an assertion stated as fact, and then asking everyone to accept the assertion on the basis that it comes from a philosophical worldview.

As long as you have that problem, your OP will forever run, with a demand to accept your assertion, and a demand to prove your assertion...
It can't be proved. Because it relies on determination. To prove determination one would have to examine literally everything that has ever happened and show that it was caused by preceding conditions. That's obviously not possible. So no-one has asked for the claim to be proved. At any time. But what has been asked, more times that you could possibly imagine, is for an example to disprove it, which can easily be done. If the claim is being rejected, (as opposed to being merely hand waved away coupled with a counter claim made that we have free will because 'gee, it's just so obvious') then literally all that is needed is an example where a choice has been made 'that is not based on any determining factors, on any antecedent conditions'.

That is all you need do. Just supply one example.

Why wait for a repeat, when you can review what you have already been given, and read?
See above, You gave a part answer to the process when you mentioned learning something that changed your mind. That will do just fine.
Because you cannot accept that free will exists, regardless of the assertion that it does not...
And it's only assertions that have been given. I've given an explanation of why it doesn't exist and the only response has been 'Oh yes it does'. That's really disappointing.
Yet, you cannot prove your assertion to be true, and do not feel you have to.
As was just explained, it's impossible to prove. But so very easy to disprove. Just give an example of a choice that wasn't determined by anything. I'll immediately admit defeat, contact everyone who has ever posted in this thread to apologise for wasting their time and close the thread.

Just one example...
 
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CoreyD

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A dog willingly, even cheerfully, loves his master. Some would gladly die for or fetch the slippers for the master, or herd the sheep with ludicrous enjoyment! It always does what it prefers.
You use a dog?
Can a dog decide to go lounge by a pool, instead of fetch the paper, knowing that if he does, he will likely not get fed?
How can you use a dog as an example in a discussion on free will?

The question here isn't what option each one does, nor what he should do, even whether what he does is under obligation or compulsion, but WHY they choose whatever they finally choose. What the OP suggests fits Scripture perfectly (other than failing to give credit to God as the first cause of all long (or short) chains of causation).
So, does that mean you would tell your wife and children, you preferred to be on the battle field than be with them?

Notice that this is the only kind of 'freewill' mentioned as such in Scripture. But what the Christian proponents of "libertarian freewill" are talking about is the everyday "willed" decision-making. As you said, quite a different thing.

As for your quote of Hosea, the context rather obviously indicates not that God has 'libertarian freewill' (though he is the only being who does), nor even that he loves them cheerfully (though I should think that can be assumed, since he is God), but that he will love them without reservation, not taking into account their past apostasy.

But yeah, it is a different discussion, not about whether people can do anything uncaused to do it.

It is said that only philosophers and theologians have a problem defining free will. There is a truth to that, but it doesn't mean that anyone else's definition is valid. It only means they don't really try for accuracy, but instead assume that their point-of-view is valid, because it is how things seem to them.
Does that mean you agree that free will exists?

Only first cause is a functioning cause without antecedent cause.

"A will generated from a functioning cause" is in full agreement with a the ability to decide "- a choice made, not because it was determined by an antecedent cause". It is not one or the other. It is both. If I didn't know any better, I would have concluded you were in full agreement with the OP and were posting rhetorical questions.

That is correct. Thus, there is no such thing, unless it is first cause. And I think you would agree, there can be only one First Cause.
How can I agree with the OP, when free will is not made obsolete, because there are reasons, involved in decision making?
Are you not asking that I take a philosophical worldview, and accept it simply because persons want to believe it?
 
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CoreyD

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It can't be proved. Because it relies on determination. To prove determination one would have to examine literally everything that has ever happened and show that it was caused by preceding conditions. That's obviously not possible. So no-one has asked for the claim to be proved. At any time. But what has been asked, more times that you could possibly imagine, is for an example to disprove it, which can easily be done. If the claim is being rejected, (as opposed to being merely hand waved away coupled with a counter claim made that we have free will because 'gee, it's just so obvious') then literally all that is needed is an example where a choice has been made 'that is not based on any determining factors, on any antecedent conditions'.

That is all you need do. Just supply one example.


See above, You gave a part answer to the process when you mentioned learning something that changed your mind. That will do just fine.

And it's only assertions that have been given. I've given an explanation of why it doesn't exist and the only response has been 'Oh yes it does'. That's really disappointing.

As was just explained, it's impossible to prove. But so very easy to disprove. Just give an example of a choice that wasn't determined by anything. I'll immediately admit defeat, contact everyone who has ever posted in this thread to apologise for wasting their time and close the thread.

Just one example...
Wait a minute.
You can't prove free will does not exist, but you run with a philosophy that it doesn't, without being able to prove the philosophy is true, and ask people to prove the philosophy is not true!!!?
Am I supposed to LOL at this point? Are you making a joke?

Let me go get some dinner, and see you guys tomorrow.
 
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Bradskii

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I am wondering when someone will bring up the kind of argument that Donald MacKay, who was a professor of biophysics at Keele U. in England, made in the 20th century. Define "free will" in a certain precise sense, namely, that there cannot exist a physically deterministic prediction about what a choosing agent - call him Joe - will choose to do in the future that if disclosed to him, he would be both correct to believe and incorrect to disbelieve the prediction.
Prediction has absolutely nothing to do with determinism. This has been addressed ad nauseum.
Now, what would be the logical status of these predictions if he were to offer them to Joe? Is Joe bound by their predictive truth to believe them? If this deterministically true yet undisclosed knowledge of God were to be revealed to Joe, would Joe be mistaken to believe otherwise?
This isn't a problem for free will. It's a problem in the concept of God.
Note that the above argument assumes free will and proceeds to show that it is not negated by physical determinism. It is a reasonable assumption because we live our lives on the basis of that assumption...
No, we actually don't (and even if we did it wouldn't prove free will). We live our lives as if free will exists, as if we are the master of our own destiny, but we also know as a fact, that every decision we make is for a reason. A reason based on antecedent conditions. If we are asked 'why did you do that' then we will always have an answer (assuming it wasn't a subconscious reactive decision in which case free will doesn't come into it). You will always be able to answer 'I did it because...' and fill in the ellipses are required.
 
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Bradskii

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Wait a minute.
You can't prove free will does not exist, but you run with a philosophy that it does, without being able to prove the philosophy is true, and ask people to prove the philosophy is not true!!!?
Yes. Why on earth do you think that's a problem? The claim is based based on inductive reasoning - that determinism is true. Which, by definition, you can't prove. But which you can disprove. All you need is one example.

Whenever you are ready to supply one...
 
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Mark Quayle

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Good point. Causality is an instance of logical necessity but determinism is not. I will explain below.

I am wondering when someone will bring up the kind of argument that Donald MacKay, who was a professor of biophysics at Keele U. in England, made in the 20th century. Define "free will" in a certain precise sense, namely, that there cannot exist a physically deterministic prediction about what a choosing agent - call him Joe - will choose to do in the future that if disclosed to him, he would be both correct to believe and incorrect to disbelieve the prediction. The argument hinges on self-referencing logic because something Joe will do in the future affects him, the person about whom the prediction is made. I have a somewhat altered form of it here. A more casual (not causal!) explanation of it is as follows.

The Logic of Free Will​

The common difficulty in reconciling divine sovereignty, whether attributed to God or Nature, and human freedom of the will, is caused by the kind of logic employed in attempting to understand their relationship. We are acculturated to think in the logic of Western tradition, the propositional logic of Aristotle. This is generally quite beneficial, for it gives our thinking a formal framework of coherency. However, it has been understood for centuries that our familiar logic has its limits in helping us understand paradoxical concepts.

It is paradox, or more precisely, antinomy, that reveals limits to logic including scientific arguments. The Apostle Paul referred to an antinomy, a statement of a Cretan (Titus 1:12): Cretans are all liars, etc. Of course, “all Cretans” includes the Cretan who uttered the statement. Consequently, the statement must be false. But if it is not true, then Epimenides (the most likely Cretan to have said this) might have told the truth. Yet, if true, then the statement could not be true. Antinomies go around in logical circles like this and logicians consider them “logically indeterminate.” Their truth-value (true or false) cannot be determined. Logical indeterminacy appears in the understanding of the relationship between God’s sovereignty or Nature's determinacy and our free will.

In deference to those who have an unwillingness to accept God’s sovereignty as deterministic (that is, as determining all things, even the fall of dice), the weaker idea, that God-in-time can only foresee but not determine the future with absolute accuracy is a sufficient starting point. So let’s start with God, or for atheists reading this, some super-scientist who merely knows the future deterministically but does not determine it. (Such a view of God makes it difficult to know whether God or Nature is in charge of the universe. But that is another matter.) Furthermore, let us assume human freedom of choice, and in particular for Joe. God-in-time can then predict the outcome of future events involving choices Joe will make – for example, whether he will read this message, or accept the gospel or not. God watches and waits, and his predictions come true every time. The predictive performance is perfect.

Now, what would be the logical status of these predictions if he were to offer them to Joe? Is Joe bound by their predictive truth to believe them? If this deterministically true yet undisclosed knowledge of God were to be revealed to Joe, would Joe be mistaken to believe otherwise?

If Joe’s freedom of choice is understood in the specific sense that there cannot exist a prediction of Joe’s choice that would be unconditionally true for Joe, then the answer is no; there cannot exist a prediction about Joe which he would be both correct to believe and incorrect to disbelieve, if only he knew it. Let’s see why this is so.

If Joe is offered the prediction about a choice he will make, and he believes it, then the “Joe” who believes it is not the “Joe” described by the prediction. In offering the prediction to Joe, it changes Joe so that he is no longer the “Joe” of the prediction. The prediction does not take into account one of the critical factors about Joe, namely, his believing the prediction.

But God or a super-scientist can also take into account the effect that the prediction will have on Joe. Suppose further that God modifies the prediction to take into account Joe’s believing it. That way, when Joe believes it, the prediction remains valid. Joe’s believing it has been taken into account in it. But in this case, Joe would not be incorrect to disbelieve the prediction, because a “Joe” who does not believe it is also not the believing Joe described in it. For either prediction, whether the prediction is true or not depends on whether Joe believes it or not. Whether a given true undisclosed deterministic prediction is true or not is up to Joe.

In disclosing the prediction to Joe, God has interacted (“interfered”) with Joe, causing the otherwise true prediction to be “out of date” due to the interaction. God-in-time, in interaction with us, also participates in the logical indeterminacy that underlies Joe’s free choice. But only a God whose secret knowledge of all history is not disclosed to Joe, can know with certainty Joe’s choices. And Joe can know them, but only by knowing his own choices.

The scriptures present us with the curious fact that both “views” of God are needed to express his full “dimensionality.” It is not difficult to extend the above argument to allow for God-in-"eternity" (the Father, perhaps) to be the predestinarian of Calvinism, who causes all events by the counsel of his will, while also allowing for God-in-time (the Son, perhaps) in the incarnation, God who is closer to us than hands and feet. The scriptures describe the Son as the one who is in dialog with us, who is the mediator between us and the Father, through the Spirit. Even Christ claimed not to know the future, but only the Father knows, he said.

To fail to distinguish between God-in-time and God-in-"eternity" leads to the confused situation that I detect in the discussion in this thread. Even God cannot disclose to us foreknowledge of our choices that we would be both correct to believe and mistaken to disbelieve. It is simply a logical fact (though by a higher-order logic than that of Aristotle) that we can be free and God be sovereign.

Note that the above argument assumes free will and proceeds to show that it is not negated by physical determinism. It is a reasonable assumption because we live our lives on the basis of that assumption, and might wonder whether our scientific understanding of ourselves, based on physical causality, negates it. Causality that is deterministic only applies to open-loop systems, but once there is feedback, such as giving the prediction to Joe beforehand, brings in a different kind of logic that applies to such physical "systems" such as Joe. A certain level of self-awareness changes the whole discussion of determinism and free will of self-aware beings.

A dual kind of argument that assumes physical determinism and argues to a logical position of semi-decidability is given in my version of this argumentation about self-referencing logic in the above link.

This kind of self-referencing logic appears also in computer software - usually of the AI kind - and one must then ask if physical determinism applies to software. The discussion of determinism and free will is thus shifted up a gear or two!
So you are arguing terminology, not against the fact of causality, but against referring to what is necessarily effect, as, "determined". Nice.
 
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