Fraud!

[Susan]

There was a discussion began among atheists in General Apologetics about "pious fraud."

I would like to begin that discussion among Christians here.

Moderators: if this thread dissolves into flames PLEASE close it.

Let's begin with: 

What is your definition of fraud? Give your personal definition, a legal definition, or both.

 

 

[A Sheep]

Fraud is:

Intentional deception resulting in injury to another person, or
deliberate trickery intended to gain an advantage.


A fraudulent person is:

A person who makes deceitful pretenses.

 

[Susan]

A legal definition generally used in America is to the effect of this:

Fraud is the intentional misrepresentation (not "honest mistake" or sincere belief) of a material (relevant) fact, that can not be recognized as such, and that causes the victim detriment or harm.

The "recognized as such" element is not necessary to prove fraud in matters where the average person would not be assumed to have knowledge or ability to spot a fraud (generally assumed to be specialized repair work, medicine, finance, law and/or religion) 

For example, let's say that a person decides to sell tap water as "Miracle Desert Spring Water" from a spring in Israel for 100 dollars a vial. The tap is in America, the water is coming from the local resevoir.

Therefore, if the person sells it as desert spring water from Israel, he is misrepresenting a material fact.

Let's say the person then sells a vial to someone through an ad in the newspaper. The victim to be would have no reason to suspect that the water is local from its appearance and the promotional material, so he buys it for $100 dollars.

The seller has just caused the victim financial harm, because no one in their right mind would buy American tap water for 100 dollars-unless they are tricked into believing it to be special.

 

 

[kod]

Originally posted by Susan
There was a discussion began among atheists in General Apologetics about "pious fraud."
Give your personal definition, a legal definition, or both. 
 

 

I was recently called a "pious fraud" because I claim to be a Christian, but the other person didn't think I was because he didn't agree with my point of view.  I'm glad there's nobody like that on this message board.  (what is the sign for tongue-in-cheek?)

 

[SavedByGrace3]

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[SavedByGrace3]

Given the definition of fraud we have read here, it sounds like every advertiser in the country is guilty.

Companies regularly promise outrageous things about their products.

But...

There has in fact been efforts by some to press this discussion past "products" and into "religious claims." For instance, a man who is called by God with gifts of healing might be prosecuted if the healings did not occur or if the healings did not stay. Ministers would be required to prove that prayer actually does work. People contributing to a ministry or church could sue if the things promised did not occur.&nbsp;

This is a very dangerous precedent, and we should be very weary of supporting this sort of move. You or your church may be dragged into court because some promise did not materialize in the lives of everyone who attends your services.

I personally amazed that Christians are so shallow to allow themselves to be lured into this unbelievers argument. So sad!

Lord Jesus, open our eyes to the methods and lies of the enemy!

Amen!

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I was recently called a "pious fraud" because I claim to be a Christian, but the other person didn't think I was because he didn't agree with my point of view.&nbsp; I'm glad there's nobody like that on this message board.&nbsp; (what is the sign for tongue-in-cheek?)

Kind of what I was talking about in my previous post.

&nbsp;

 

[seebs]

I certainly think there's a problem with big-money evangelists selling various things, using their position as a way to give their promises credibility.

 

[Susan]

I am not in the "unbelievers' argument."
I simply believe that Christians should not commit fraud.
By that I mean things like the pyramid scheme "Greater Ministries," healings and relics FOR PROFIT, and like things.
I don't mean having to prove that prayer must be proven, or any other like comments.