Fox spins proposal to eliminate "So help you God" from committee swearing in

[USincognito]

And when you compare that to the violence we see today, how do you feel? How would you feel if you were a teen or preteen in today's world where your life could be over for nothing more than walking out on the street or going to school.

As the statistics we keep citing show, this fantasy of yours is as disconnected from reality as your fantasy the 1950s being a universal Mayberry. Children being killed in drive by shootings are a small number of the children who actually are killed by gun violence, which itself is a vanishingly small number of American children overall.

 

[disciple Clint]

So you think that forcing people to take your Lord’s name in vain by swearing to him when they want nothing to do with him on a book they think is filled with lies is the answer? What purpose does making people sin serve?

Better question: Sin? what Sin? If you have a concept of sin then you also have a concept of God.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Better question: Sin? what Sin? If you have a concept of sin then you also have a concept of God.

You have a concept of sin. And I would think a Christian making people sin would be a bad thing for the Christian. Especially since the only reason for it is either a) you can have a false sense of comfort that there are more Christians than there really are or b) you think someone is going to follow Christ simply by forcing them to touch a Bible.

For me, if you want me to be truthful in my work, it seems really stupid to make one of my first actions being actively lying to everyone.

 

[disciple Clint]

You have a concept of sin. And I would think a Christian making people sin would be a bad thing for the Christian. Especially since the only reason for it is either a) you can have a false sense of comfort that there are more Christians than there really are or b) you think someone is going to follow Christ simply by forcing them to touch a Bible.

For me, if you want me to be truthful in my work, it seems really stupid to make one of my first actions being actively lying to everyone.

Would it be unreasonable to consider that a person might not be a fully committed Christian at the time of the oath but might come to conviction at some later date? Or could it be considered that God might help someone overcome difficulties even if they are not a Christian. Help me God is not the exclusive right of the Christian. I have seen many people who did not claim to be Christian call out to God for help.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Better question: Sin? what Sin? If you have a concept of sin then you also have a concept of God.

Even better question -- does a God who needs government support have any real power over sin?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Would it be unreasonable to consider that a person might not be a fully committed Christian at the time of the oath but might come to conviction at some later date? Or could it be considered that God might help someone overcome difficulties even if they are not a Christian. Help me God is not the exclusive right of the Christian. I have seen many people who did not claim to be Christian call out to God for help.

...because the government compelled them to?

 

[Speedwell]

It is ok to look outside our country to learn our lessons. Can you not see that other countries have laws against Christians and can you not see what is happening there because of those laws?

Except that the whiners and complainers frequently disown those other Christians who are actually suffering persecution (Roman Catholics, Orthodox and Oriental, Armenians, Copts, Ethiopians, Chaldeans, etc.) as not "real" Christians, except when they want to make it seem as if US fundamentalist Protestants are facing the same kind of discrimination.

 

[GreatLakes4Ever]

Would it be unreasonable to consider that a person might not be a fully committed Christian at the time of the oath but might come to conviction at some later date? Or could it be considered that God might help someone overcome difficulties even if they are not a Christian. Help me God is not the exclusive right of the Christian. I have seen many people who did not claim to be Christian call out to God for help.

No more unreasonable than someone who was a Christian taking the oath and leaving the faith at some later date.

Some people do not believe in your chosen deity. Forcing them to will not make them and in reality will probably given them a poor view of Christians and will deliberately steer away from that faith.

Why is it that some Christians have zero respect for other people’s faiths, but other people must have complete and total reverence for the Christian faith? If you respected other people’s faiths this phrase would be dropped, no questions asked, instead you want the government to force other people to revere your faith even if it means they are committing sins in your religion (taking the Lord’s name in vain, which is what this would be if a nonbeliever did this).

 

[cow451]

It is ok to look outside our country to learn our lessons. Can you not see that other countries have laws against Christians and can you not see what is happening there because of those laws? Obviously the whiners and complainers are not limited to Christians there are plenty right on this site who either are not Christians or have forgotten why they are Christians.

I remember why I’m a Christian and I also know why I have. I reason to whine and complain about being inconvenienced by secular laws.

 

[LoAmmi]

Even better question -- does a God who needs government support have any real power over sin?

 

[disciple Clint]

Even better question -- does a God who needs government support have any real power over sin?

There is no proof that God need protection from the government but if you check history there is substantial evidence that those who believe in God need protection from government. That is what the liberals are trying to eliminate.

 

[USincognito]

There is no proof that God need protection from the government but if you check history there is substantial evidence that those who believe in God need protection from government.

World history? That is a valid point. American history (we are talking about the U.S. here)? Not so much.

That is what the liberals are trying to eliminate.

Please, do go on. Explain to us how "liberals" are trying to eliminate protection from government for those who believe in God.

 

[disciple Clint]

Except that the whiners and complainers frequently disown those other Christians who are actually suffering persecution (Roman Catholics, Orthodox and Oriental, Armenians, Copts, Ethiopians, Chaldeans, etc.) as not "real" Christians, except when they want to make it seem as if US fundamentalist Protestants are facing the same kind of discrimination.

whiners and complainers

is that hateful or just biased?

 

[Speedwell]

is that hateful or just biased?

No, just exasperated. Christians are not persecuted in this country.

 

[disciple Clint]

No, just exasperated. Christians are not persecuted in this country.

Informed exasperation: Christians facing increased persecution in America: poll
12 Worst Christian Persecution Nations; US Makes List for First Time

 

[USincognito]

Informed exasperation: Christians facing increased persecution in America: poll
12 Worst Christian Persecution Nations; US Makes List for First Time

Seriously? A poll by Lifeway? Polls indicate how people feel or what they think. They are not facts in an of themselves and often times people will think the opposite of reality.
https://lifewayresearch.com/wp-cont...tolerance-and-Religious-Liberty-Sept-2015.pdf

And the other one is a "Hall of Shame" list put together by International Christian Concern that lumps the U.S. in with Nigeria, Saudi Arabia and North Korea. Forgive me if I don't take it seriously.

 

[TLK Valentine]

There is no proof that God need protection from the government

Do we therefore agree that there's no reason to require "So help me God" in a swearing in ceremony?

but if you check history there is substantial evidence that those who believe in God need protection from government.

No, they need protection by government -- protection from those who don't believe in God.

Similarly, those who don't believe in God sometimes need protection by government from those who do believe in God.

And those who believe in this God occasionally need protection by the government from those who believe in that God...

And the rules are, everyone gets the same amount of protection -- no less, no more.

That is what the liberals are trying to eliminate.

That just doesn't make sense -- if you need protection from government, why are you begging for their assistance?

 

[Speedwell]

Informed exasperation: Christians facing increased persecution in America: poll
12 Worst Christian Persecution Nations; US Makes List for First Time

So Fundamentalists think they are being persecuted more and the rest of us think they're whining about nothing. Thanks for making my point.

""Christians in the U.S. are facing constant attacks in the media, where they are portrayed as bigoted, racist, sexist, and close- minded," the report argues, highlighting in part the battle between traditional marriage and LGBT-supporting groups."

The only fault I can find with your sources is that they tend to use the word "Christian" when what they really mean is "conservative Evangelical Protestant Christian."

 

[cow451]

Informed exasperation: Christians facing increased persecution in America: poll
12 Worst Christian Persecution Nations; US Makes List for First Time

Feeling persecuted and being persecuted are two different things. What some Christians are calling persecution I call being inconvenienced. Hence my opinion that it amounts to increased whining and complaining.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Feeling persecuted and being persecuted are two different things. What some Christians are calling persecution I call being inconvenienced. Hence my opinion that it amounts to increased whining and complaining.

Let's not forget the number of Christians (a small number, but we shouldn't ignore them) that want to feel persecuted because they believe it's a sign that the End Times are near...

Of course, rather than go to a country where they can experience actual Christian persecution for the first (and quite possibly last) time, they'd rather feel inconvenienced here because Uncle Sam doesn't give them an extra scoop of ice cream... off someone else's plate, of course.