Founders of Freemasonry?

[circuitrider]

Rhamiel,

The differences of view on Freemasonry among different church groups doesn't say much of anything about Freemasonry. It says much more about the diversity of opinions on almost everything in different Christian denominations.

Pick any theological or social topic and I can find denominations with opposite opinions from each other.

Skip, like many fundamentalists, likes to talk about "Biblical Christianity." But Christians do not agree on what constitutes "Biblical Christianity." While mainstream Christian bodies agree on some very basic views (think the Apostle's Creed as an example), on anything beyond basics Christianity is extremely diverse.

 

[circuitrider]

Rhamiel,

Also I wanted to point out that you didn't deal with my statement about ordained clergy being involved in Freemasonry. Instead you jumped to critique Roman Catholic laymen who are Masons.

I would say that is because, like most people who oppose Freemasonry, you don't have a good answer for the participation of clergy and theologians in Freemasonry.

 

[Rhamiel]

what about clergy who are members of Freemasons?

as you pointed out before, there is great diversity among Christianity
I could point out that a number of clergy has also fervently denounced and repudiated Freemasonry

again, you are part of a very modern church, Freemasonry is older then the Methodist Church, so that might explain why your own faith tradition has a distorted view of the Lodge.

 

[circuitrider]

Rhamiel,

I'm sure you can find clergy who oppose Freemasonry since there are some denominations who do. But that isn't the point. The point is that you have tried to declare Freemasonry to be incompatible with Christianity. You might be able ot argue that it is incompatible with your own Church or some other denomination. But since that is only a view of specific denominations, you can't declare Freemasonry incompatible with the whole of the Christian faith.

 

[Rhamiel]

Rhamiel,

I'm sure you can find clergy who oppose Freemasonry since there are some denominations who do. But that isn't the point. The point is that you have tried to declare Freemasonry to be incompatible with Christianity. You might be able ot argue that it is incompatible with your own Church or some other denomination. But since that is only a view of specific denominations, you can't declare Freemasonry incompatible with the whole of the Christian faith.

well I also think that homosexual actions are incompatible with the Christian faith
even though I can find denominations that disagree with this and even members of my own Church who do not agree I can still confidently say "homosexual actions are incompatible with Christianity"

does every denomination agree with this?
no

the Religious Indifference of Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity

 

[americanvet]

There is no conflict between the Gospel of our Lord Jesus and Masonry. However, yes some churches have made it a conflict because in their minds "if you don't agree with us 100% you are wrong".

 

[Albion]

There is no conflict between the Gospel of our Lord Jesus and Masonry. However, yes some churches have made it a conflict because in their minds "if you don't agree with us 100% you are wrong".

That's quite correct, but it's also ironic that some church bodies condemned Masonry on the basis that it allows men of different Christian denominations to join, while other ones found nothing wrong with that but instead condemned Masonry (erroneously) for being a "secret society." In other words...it's exactly as you said above: "If you don't agree with us 100%, we're writing you off as being a real Christian."

This might be seen as saying more about them than about Masons.

 

[Rhamiel]

it is the fact that Freemasonry says that religion does not really matter
that is the disturbing part
that is why Christians should not be members of that group

 

[Simpleman25]

Freemasonry says no such thing! A belief in God is a prerequisite for membership. No atheist are allowed.

 

[Rhamiel]

Freemasonry says no such thing! A belief in God is a prerequisite for membership. No atheist are allowed.

oh? which god do you have to believe in?
does Masonry say that belief in any god is ok?

or does it uphold the truth of Christianity?

now Christians can be in groups like the NFL, which put no focus on religion at all

or we can be in groups like the Knights of Columbus
that put focus on Jesus Christ and His Church

but Freemasonry says that Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Paganism and all the various sects of Christianity are all equal

 

[Albion]

oh? which god do you have to believe in?
does Masonry say that belief in any god is ok?

or does it uphold the truth of Christianity?

Masonry is not a religion. How many times does this have to be explained to you ?

now Christians can be in groups like the NFL, which put no focus on religion at all
or we can be in groups like the Knights of Columbus
that put focus on Jesus Christ and His Church

but Freemasonry says that Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Paganism and all the various sects of Christianity are all equal

Freemasonry says no such thing, and you know that it does not.

 

[Albion]

it is the fact that Freemasonry says that religion does not really matter
that is the disturbing part

Then put your mind at ease. Freemasonry says nothing of the sort.

that is why Christians should not be members of that group

Well, since 1) your premise was in error, and

2) you took the position that this was the reason Christians should not belong to Masonry,

you have just asserted that there isn't any reason that Christians should not be Masons. Congratulations.

 

[Rhamiel]

Simpleman said you HAVE to believe in a god to be a Freemason?

so it is a religious organization
or at least an organization that has some religious standards?

these standards do not line up with Christianity


the ancient Churches(Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic) recognize that Freemasonry is not compatible with Christianity
modern denominations seem to have no problem with Freemasonry

 

[Skip Sampson]

There is no conflict between the Gospel of our Lord Jesus and Masonry. However, yes some churches have made it a conflict because in their minds "if you don't agree with us 100% you are wrong".

Which 'church' has done that? Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Masonry is not a religion. How many times does this have to be explained to you ?

On what basis do you make that claim? Other Masons have described it as a 'mild religion,' and I, personally, believe it to be one.

The issue remains this: does Freemasonry meet the definition of a religion? If you have a preferred definition, I'll be happy to use it to prove my point. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

As an ordained United Methodist Elder in Full Connection with the UMC I can tell you that being a Freemason is not incompatible with the Discipline or teaching of the United Methodist Church. You will find no statement of opposition in any of our doctrines or teachings.

Being that you are also a Freemason, your statement appears to be a bit self-serving. Just out of curiosity, has the UMC ever examined the issue formally and/or issued a statement on it? Or are you now the spokesman for the UMC as well as Freemasonry?

Skip, like many fundamentalists, likes to talk about "Biblical Christianity." But Christians do not agree on what constitutes "Biblical Christianity." While mainstream Christian bodies agree on some very basic views (think the Apostle's Creed as an example), on anything beyond basics Christianity is extremely diverse.

Your comment is a bit confusing as it states that Christians do and do not agree on basic Christian views. I'll put that down to poor word choice.

Christians are pretty much aligned with the following viewpoint: together in the essentials, tolerant in the non-essentials. Where real differences emerge among Christian organizations (e.g., baptism as a salvific act) disputes will indeed occur because black-letter Bible statements are involved. Fundamentalists view Biblical Christianity as centered on those black-letter comments which are indisputable in their meaning.

Whether Christians "agree on what constitutes 'Biblical Christianity' " or not is irrelevant; each of us gets to make up our minds for ourselves as we will be held responsible for such decisions. So regardless who agrees with me or not, my criticism of Freemasonry cannot be so easily discarded as you are trying to do. I've stated my case many times, and in most instances Freemasons resort to strawmen or mis-directions to avoid the criticism. If I were wrong in these charges, or in the relevant Christian doctrine upon which they are based, it would have been long trumpeted by you and the other Masons on this forum.

You are a Mason because you have found good in belonging to the organization, an act you have said is consistent with the UMC doctrine in finding good everywhere. How one could find anything good in a religious organization that not only excludes that Gospel, but teaches doctrine directly contradictory to it, is beyond me. That you and other pastors are Freemasons neither justifies Freemasonry nor their membership. It merely shows that anyone can be blinded to the truth, and carries with it the warning that anyone who calls himself a Christian must be careful about his associations, personal or organizational. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Albion]

Being that you are also a Freemason, your statement appears to be a bit self-serving.

Excuse me, but that's a ridiculous charge. How is it "self-serving" for him to inform you that he is an ordained clergyman in the United Methodist Church and that the UMC does not find fault in that?

These are facts, and if you have any information to the effect that the UMC has taken a stand against Masonry, post it. Of course, that can't be done and we all know it. That being the case, "self-serving" means nothing more than that the facts happen to be on his side!

 

[Skip Sampson]

Excuse me, but that's a ridiculous charge. How is it "self-serving" for him to inform you that he is an ordained clergyman in the United Methodist Church and that the UMC does not find fault in that?

Well, you certainly need an excuse. But, it's good to see that you don't read Circuitrider's posts with any greater attention to detail than you read mine.

Yet more proof that 'Masonic scholarship' is a contradiction of terms. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Simpleman25]

In other words Albion, he resorts to what he does best. Insult.

If you want some good proof of how anti mason this guy is, just read his story from the beginning to now.

He's been banned from sites for not following simple rules. He did this because he was taken to the woodshed. On numerous issues.

Then count how many threads he and his leader have gotten shut down on this site alone!

It's odd that someone who professes to be such a good Christian can't seem to follow the rules on a Christian website.

The biggest fabrication is that their anti Masonic, not anti mason. Yet they seem to make arguments against various masons that don't match up to their word. They make it very personal. Therefore making themselves anti mason.

Talk about contradiction!

 

[circuitrider]

it is the fact that Freemasonry says that religion does not really matter
that is the disturbing part
that is why Christians should not be members of that group

So Rhamiel, you should only belong to organizations that are for Christians only?

Why should it be objectionable for a fraternity which is not a religious organization to admit members who aren't a part of your religion?