Founders of Freemasonry?

[Albion]

As usual, when I get into a discussion about Freemasonry where at least one professional anti-mason is present, the discussion get surreal.

We have people claiming here that Freemasonry and Christianity are not compatible or that you can't be a Mason and a Christian. We also have claims that Freemasonry is involved in wars against a Christian group and murders as well, etc.

Now lets get back to reality...

Well, you basically have one person working overtime to come up with "what ifs." There's nothing more to it than that, and he's never proven a single one of his speculations.

 

[circuitrider]

look at the lynchings during the civil rights movement
the KKK had many "active Christians" as members
that does not mean that Christianity is compatible with racism

you pointed out there are active Catholics who are members of your lodge
so?
you can find nominal Christians in every denomination
people who go to services, but live in a way that is incompatible with the Christian faith

Rhamiel, you aren't listening. These folks aren't "nominal Christians." They are deeply involved in their churches, several of them certified by training to teach and preach in the Church and others ordained clergy in the Church. Certified lay ministers and ordained clergy aren't "nominal Christians."

May I ask Rhamiel how much theological training you have? You are dismissing people as "nominal Christians" who have advanced theological degrees, have gone through extensive training, and years of approval processes and many who have been ordained elders (priests) in the Church.

Just as an example, it takes a minimum of nine (9) years of training, schooling, examination, and work in the Church to get ordained in the United Methodist Church as an Elder (Priest). It take three or more years of schooling to just be certified to preach as a lay minister without ordination.

These are the men running lodges who are freemasons. Trained, committed, active, and serious Christians.

If you have some real charge to make against Freemasons in the United States how about you provide some real, not made up, evidence which includes verifiable facts. Otherwise you are bearing false witness.

 

[Rhamiel]

Rhamiel, you aren't listening. These folks aren't "nominal Christians." They are deeply involved in their churches, several of them certified by training to teach and preach in the Church and others ordained clergy in the Church. Certified lay ministers and ordained clergy aren't "nominal Christians."

May I ask Rhamiel how much theological training you have? You are dismissing people as "nominal Christians" who have advanced theological degrees, have gone through extensive training, and years of approval processes and many who have been ordained elders (priests) in the Church.

Just as an example, it takes a minimum of nine (9) years of training, schooling, examination, and work in the Church to get ordained in the United Methodist Church as an Elder (Priest). It take three or more years of schooling to just be certified to preach as a lay minister without ordination.

These are the men running lodges who are freemasons. Trained, committed, active, and serious Christians.

If you have some real charge to make against Freemasons in the United States how about you provide some real, not made up, evidence which includes verifiable facts. Otherwise you are bearing false witness.

I am sorry if I sounded rude or glib

one point, Freemasonry is international, so if they are the Freemasons in the United States, the Freemasons in Argentina, the Freemasons in Germany, the Freemasons in France
still Freemasons

also, I do not often hear United Methodist take up the mantle of priest
unless of course we are talking about the priesthood of all believers

as for specific charges,
the sin of religious indifference?
putting truth and error as being equal.
To say that Hinduism and Islam are equal to Christianity


you all say "oh we know Christians who are members of Freemasonry, so that means it must be ok"
but the wheat and the tares grow side by side
this does not justify Freemasonry
as stated before, I bet in the 1930's you could find many "committed Christians" as members of the KKK

 

[Skip Sampson]

The one who posts here most often and once was a Mason until disciplined by his lodge

To whom do you refer? And what is your source for that charge? Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Maybe you don't understand fundamentalism as well as you think you do, or you are too close to the subject.

Actually I do because I have researched the topic. I'd suggest you consult an online dictionary as the starting point for your long-overdue research. You are clearly in ignorance of what it means and teaches. And I think your being called on it is quite a blow to your pride. You sound like someone who is not used to being questioned, and who certainly does not like it.

Everyone who is a Christian believes their understanding of Christianity is "Biblical Christianity."

I think you are quite incorrect over that.

I know enough about your career in anti-masonry to say that I'd not take your word for what is or isn't Biblical Christianity.

Why would the one preclude the other in your mind? It would seem that the very fact that I oppose Freemasonry is sufficient in your opinion to make such an incorrect claim. As noted earlier, if you really want to find out the truth on that matter, start and thread and see where we go with it. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

There are active, serious Catholics in my lodge, ...

Which speaks volumes about their hypocrisy. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Simpleman25]

Which speaks volumes about their hypocrisy. Cordially, Skip.

Here we go judging others!

All based on what you believe. Not based on fact. Based on what YOU believe to be the truth.

 

[Albion]

Which speaks volumes about their hypocrisy. Cordially, Skip.

Why don't we just let them decide on their own spiritual lives without running it by your office first. OK?

 

[circuitrider]

Which speaks volumes about their hypocrisy. Cordially, Skip.

Which speaks volumes about your judgmentalism.

 

[Rhamiel]

Here we go judging others!

All based on what you believe. Not based on fact. Based on what YOU believe to be the truth.

this is not really based on the personal beliefs of anyone
this is objective

you can not be a good Catholic AND be a Mason
because one of the rules of the Catholic Church is that you cannot be a Mason

 

[Simpleman25]

this is not really based on the personal beliefs of anyone
this is objective

you can not be a good Catholic AND be a Mason
because one of the rules of the Catholic Church is that you cannot be a Mason

I disagree, as do thousands of Catholics. Ultimately there is but one judge. No one can say with certainty that he's Catholic.

 

[Simpleman25]

this is not really based on the personal beliefs of anyone
this is objective

you can not be a good Catholic AND be a Mason
because one of the rules of the Catholic Church is that you cannot be a Mason

p.s. It is not objective. Not all Christians are Catholic. Not all Catholics believe the same way, or believe in all the rules.

 

[Rhamiel]

I disagree, as do thousands of Catholics. Ultimately there is but one judge. No one can say with certainty that he's Catholic.

this is like saying
"you can be a good United Methodist and worship Vishnu"

no, you can't because that action is incompatible with the UMC

so, the thousands of Catholics who are Freemasons, are doing something that is against the objective rules of the Catholic Church

like, this is not "agree" or "disagree"
the Catholic Church, and many other Churches, are against Freemasonry

 

[Albion]

this is like saying
"you can be a good United Methodist and worship Vishnu"

No. That's just silly. We are talking about Christians and you are saying that your Christian standards are different from the Christian standards of other Christians...so .you feel free to liken them to pagans! IMO that's not only nonsense, it's highly disrespectful.

no, you can't because that action is incompatible with the UMC

Says Rhamiel. It's not what the UMC says.

So who is in the better position to decide?

so, the thousands of Catholics who are Freemasons, are doing something that is against the objective rules of the Catholic Church

Perhaps, but the Church knows it and doesn't object. It's not particularly interested in political disputes and maneuverings remaining from the 19th century, apparently.

And it's not as though these Catholic Masons are doing something in secret when their elections to various Masonic leadership positions is printed in the local newspaper.

 

[Albion]

Considering our friend Rhamiel's delicate conscience, I wonder why he isn't interested in the Catholic Church's own secret society, the Knights of Columbus, which is often called the Catholic Masonic order?

It has the same kinds of oaths, Egyptian symbols, and an origin in Freemasonry--all the stuff that makes any conspiracy theorist's pulse race.

 

[circuitrider]

this is like saying
"you can be a good United Methodist and worship Vishnu"

no, you can't because that action is incompatible with the UMC

so, the thousands of Catholics who are Freemasons, are doing something that is against the objective rules of the Catholic Church

like, this is not "agree" or "disagree"
the Catholic Church, and many other Churches, are against Freemasonry

I'm a bit confused here Rhamiel. What action is incompatible with the UMC?

As an ordained United Methodist Elder in Full Connection with the UMC I can tell you that being a Freemason is not incompatible with the Discipline or teaching of the United Methodist Church. You will find no statement of opposition in any of our doctrines or teachings.

 

[Albion]

I'm a bit confused here Rhamiel. What action is incompatible with the UMC?

As an ordained United Methodist Elder in Full Connection with the UMC I can tell you that being a Freemason is not incompatible with the Discipline or teaching of the United Methodist Church. You will fine no statement of opposition in any of our doctrines or teachings.

Do mean to say that you, an ordained minister of the Gospel in good standing in the United Methodist Church, think you know more about the church's standards and requirements...than Rhamiel does?????

 

[circuitrider]

Do mean to say that you, an ordained minister of the Gospel in good standing in the United Methodist Church, think you know more about the church's standards and requirements...than Rhamiel does?????

Kind of wild huh?

 

[Rhamiel]

I'm a bit confused here Rhamiel. What action is incompatible with the UMC?

As an ordained United Methodist Elder in Full Connection with the UMC I can tell you that being a Freemason is not incompatible with the Discipline or teaching of the United Methodist Church. You will find no statement of opposition in any of our doctrines or teachings.

I was using the rather wild and extreme example of a Methodist who worships Vishnu can not be counted as a "good Methodist"
because he is doing an action that is clearly against the teachings of the UMC

Just like you can not be a "good Catholic" and be a Freemason because doing that action is clearly against the teachings of the RCC

Albion was offended that I used Hindu worship as an example, I was not calling Freemasonry pagan, I was just using an extreme example to better illustrate my point

all of you claim to know "good Catholics" who are Freemasons
that would be like me saying I know "good Methodist" who worship Vishnu
the fact that they are doing this actions means that they are not in line with what their church teaches

yes, I do know that the UMC does not have any problem with people being members of the Lodge

but there are many Churches that do see such membership as problematic

it is discouraged by the Church of Scotland
Many Kirk members still Masons despite earlier call to 'think again' - The Scotsman

Eastern Orthodoxy also believes that Freemasonry is not compatible with Christianity
these are not some fringe denominations, while the Church of Scotland is not a huge denomination, they are still seen as a mainline Protestant Church are they not?

 

[Albion]

Ithese are not some fringe denominations, while the Church of Scotland is not a huge denomination, they are still seen as a mainline Protestant Church are they not?

Oh yes, but if you knew the truth--and I doubt that you want to hear it--most of those denominations that have taken a stand against Masonry have done so in recent years and did it in a stunningly slipshod manner.

I examined a number of them and found that the typical one set up a committee that read a few things online and concluded something that amounted to "they said this is what happens in Masonry." And then a report was made to some convention that of course voted against Masonry because, well, the delegates had also heard bad (but untrue) things.

And I am not exaggerating at all about this. Of course, a few denominations have gone at it more carefully. At the same time, we would have to be fair to include the fact that there are just as respectable denominations that have refused to falsely accuse Masonry of things that other churches have rubber stamped on the basis of hearsay.

In my case, the number of clergy and bishops who are Masons is large and always has been significant, with the full knowledge of the church.