Found this article, what do you think?

[SughaNSpice]

Andy, WHY are there "prejudicial attitudes" about homosexuality AND homosexuals that has spanned human history?

The 800-pound gorilla is in the room.

Why are there racist attitudes?
Why are there sexist attitudes?
Why are there ageist attitudes?

 

[SughaNSpice]

Bolding mine.

What I bolded got me thinking. Other goups have been enslaved. The 200 years part may not be the greatest part of what caused the damage. That may well go to systematic destruction of Black family groups during that time.

A bit ironic in that the gays seem to have suffered that part for a still longer time and are to this day. People are still trying to destroy/prevent gay family groups.

It’s very sad. And the worst attack is to deny that they are families

 

[Inviolable]

Wait, the original question was about people in general, not homosexuals.

The original question asked, what African Americans thought of the article.

 

[AdamClarke]

"No parallels between movements for rights is exact. African-Americans are the only Americans who were enslaved for more than two centuries, and people of color carry the badge of who we are on our faces. But we are far from the only people suffering discrimination -- sadly, so do many others. They deserve the law's protection and they deserve civil rights too. Sexual disposition parallels race -- I was born black and I had no choice. I couldn't and wouldn't change if I could. Like race, our sexuality isn't a preference -- it is immutable, unchangeable, and the Constitution protects us against prejudices based on immutable differences"
-Julian Bond - Chair of the NAACP


It seems that the leaders of the civil rights movement don’t’ support the premise of the essay you linked us to – and they don’t support your desire to use them to justify your own prejudices either

It seems that neither Mrs. King nor Mr. Bond are in touch with what the majority of African Americans believe. That doesn't mean they are wrong, but it does mean that they are not necessarily a good representation of those they claim to represent.

 

[SughaNSpice]

The original question asked, what African Americans thought of the article.

And it seems the responses have not been to the OP posters liking very much.

It seems that those people of color who don't agree are "out of touch"

 

[AdamClarke]

There are some things similar, there are some things different. If one is insisting they are the same, then that person really is being idiotic. The question is on where each issue falls. Is this something they are alike in, or different, and thus do they make a good or bad analogy?

That's the point. The primary group affected by the 60's civil rights movement is saying that these issues are not alike in the same way that the homosexual rights proponents claim they are. That is why I found it so interesting.

 

[AdamClarke]

And we needed another gay thread why?

It wasn't intended as a gay thread. I wanted to know how people felt about the fact that the very group that homosexual rights proponents most often claim kinship with disagree with them.

 

[Inviolable]

And it seems the responses have not been to the OP posters liking very much.

It seems that those people of color who don't agree are "out of touch"

In all fairness I've only seen people with relationships to homosexuals post in here, who seem to be in disagreement with the article.

I like the article because it addresses the issue directly and makes some comparisons that should've been made a long time ago.

 

[AdamClarke]

So you've never been to a public school?

Been in many Until my child was in 8th grade I was always a volunteer, ran the cub scout pack, and was always a member of the PTA. I was even a room mother until they changed the title. I have a great deal of experience in the public schools and yet have never seen any of the the things mentioned.

 

[AdamClarke]

I do.


I have had experience of teachers who showed open contempt for children who were, or who were assumed to be, homosexual.

In South Africa or the U.S.?

 

[AdamClarke]

Wait, the original question was about people in general, not homosexuals.

What I was hoping for was a diversity of responses to the article and so far I am fairly pleased with the contributions so far.

I do admit I am interested in a point by point refutation of the piece but I am sure I can find those online on blogs etc.

 

[AdamClarke]

No individual group owns civil rights, nobody can "hijack" them unless they are trying to take them away from others by claiming they own them, so basically the authoris of this statement want to hijack civil rights themselves.

I have to admit that I was a little confused by parts of the article. What I understood the author to be claiming was highjacked was the idea of a group being unjustly discriminated against based upon a characteristic over which they have no control. Many in the African American Community seem to view same sex sex acts as actions not immutable characteristics.

 

[AdamClarke]

Mildred Loving was in favor of equal rights for all. My daughter is in favor of equal rights for all. My husband is in favor of equal rights for all, my son is in favor of equal rights for all. Who says the cogic members are all Christian, and who says they get to decide who has a valid claim to equal rights.

Civil Rights apply to everyone, not only one group of people.

I never claimed that they did, you are confusing me with someone who has a side on this issue. I truly don't, but as a person interested in Christian behavior I find the subject interesting.

I think what the author is getting at is that there is a difference between inherent characteristics and behavior.

 

[AdamClarke]

I found the reasoning to be specious at best, and inflammatory at it's worst.
Slavery was really bad, agreed. I don't see how that translates into "So because homosexuals where not as persecuted (which is debatable) the two cases are not on equivalent footing. I can look at the two cases and see the parallels. Are they equal? No. But that does not mean they do not deserve equal rights the same as anyone else.


In what way does the fact that SOME of the people looking for rights being white make this about white privilege?


Homosexuals are still capable of procreation and a persons sexual orientation does nothing to change the "unitive" (is this a word?) function of marriage.


Correta Scott King thinks that the case of black civil rights and gay civil rights are on the same footing. Apparently she has been corrupted by a white special interest group. How is this not blatantly racist again?

Those are some interesting thoughts. I did however already address the Mrs. King stance in another post. I have a great deal of respect for Mrs. King but I see no reason to take her opinion as any more influential or insightful than anyone else's.

 

[AdamClarke]

It seems that the leaders of the civil rights movement don’t’ support the premise of the essay you linked us to – and they don’t support your desire to use them to justify your own prejudices either

Precisely what prejudice of mine are you speaking of?

 

[AdamClarke]

The original question asked, what African Americans thought of the article.

No actually I wanted a diversity of opinions, I apologize if I posted in a confusing manner.

 

[AdamClarke]

And it seems the responses have not been to the OP posters liking very much.

It seems that those people of color who don't agree are "out of touch"

First of all why would you make such a comment about me? I haven't responded negatively to any comment on this thread.
Secondly why do you think they are out of touch? Were the almost 75% of African Americans in California who voted for Prop 8 "out of touch?"

 

[SughaNSpice]

It seems that neither Mrs. King nor Mr. Bond are in touch with what the majority of African Americans believe. That doesn't mean they are wrong, but it does mean that they are not necessarily a good representation of those they claim to represent.

And it seems the responses have not been to the OP posters liking very much


The chair of the NAACP is out of touch because he doesn’t agree with you?




“It is time to say forthrightly that the government's exclusion of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters from civil marriage officially degrades them and their families. It denies them the basic human right to marry the person they love. It denies them numerous legal protections for their families
This discrimination is wrong. We cannot keep turning our backs on gay and lesbian Americans. I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I've heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples. Cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred, and intolerance I have known in racism and in bigotry.”
John Lewis – organizer of the 1968 march on Washington

Is Mr. Lewis out of touch?


Gays and lesbians have a more difficult time than we did. We had our families and our churches on our side. All too often, they have neither."
Dr. James Lawson – civil rights leader

I’m sure you think he is out of touch too

"I'd be disappointed if we did not approve this resolution. I think it would be consistent with our historic spirit of fairness and justice. But it also would be consistent with the spirit of grace and mercy as the path to peace and that you judge not that you not be judged." – Andrew Young, Mayor of Atlanta

"Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the 'wrong kind of person' for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights.” Mildred Loving

"Marriage is a basic human right. You cannot tell people they cannot fall in love. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. used to say when people talked about interracial marriage, and I quote, "Races do not fall in love and get married. Individuals fall in love and get married." ~Rep. John Lewis of Georgia before Congress on the Defense of Marriage Act, 7/1/96
“Discrimination against LGBT people tears at the fabric of the Constitution and weakens all of our rights. Today's landmark decision is good for America.

We must do everything possible to support families - including lesbian and gay families. All of us - regardless of sexual orientation - stand to benefit from equal marriage rights because stable families strengthen our communities and neighborhoods.” Former Senator Carol Mosley Brown

I’m sure you think all of these people are out of touch as well

 

[AdamClarke]

And it seems the responses have not been to the OP posters liking very much

Again I have to ask why you claim this. I have already posted in other threads previous to this one that I don't really have a dog in this fight (well actually I said race I don't like the idea of dog fighting) Same-sex marriage will not affect my marriage and preventing same sex marriage will not lower the incidents of same sex sex which I consider to be sinful. So I'm not really bothered one way or the other.

The chair of the NAACP is out of touch because he doesn’t agree with you?

No I would say he's out of touch because he doesn't seem to agree with the majority of African Americans. At least as far as the surveys I have found.




“It is time to say forthrightly that the government's exclusion of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters from civil marriage officially degrades them and their families. It denies them the basic human right to marry the person they love. It denies them numerous legal protections for their families
This discrimination is wrong. We cannot keep turning our backs on gay and lesbian Americans. I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I've heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples. Cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred, and intolerance I have known in racism and in bigotry.”
John Lewis – organizer of the 1968 march on Washington

Is Mr. Lewis out of touch?

With the majority of African Americans it seems so. I would love to see more studies to prove that I am wrong.


Gays and lesbians have a more difficult time than we did. We had our families and our churches on our side. All too often, they have neither."
Dr. James Lawson – civil rights leader

I’m sure you think he is out of touch too

No he is stating a fact in this quote. He is not however stating that the basis for the discrimination is the same, nor is he attempting to equate the two movements.

"I'd be disappointed if we did not approve this resolution. I think it would be consistent with our historic spirit of fairness and justice. But it also would be consistent with the spirit of grace and mercy as the path to peace and that you judge not that you not be judged." – Andrew Young, Mayor of

Atlanta

"Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the 'wrong kind of person' for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights.” Mildred Loving

"Marriage is a basic human right. You cannot tell people they cannot fall in love. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. used to say when people talked about interracial marriage, and I quote, "Races do not fall in love and get married. Individuals fall in love and get married." ~Rep.John Lewis of Georgia before Congress on the Defense of Marriage Act, 7/1/96
“Discrimination against LGBT people tears at the fabric of the Constitution and weakens all of our rights. Today's landmark decision is good for America.

We must do everything possible to support families - including lesbian and gay families. All of us - regardless of sexual orientation - stand to benefit from equal marriage rights because stable families strengthen our communities and neighborhoods.” Former Senator Carol Mosley Brown

I’m sure you think all of these people are out of touch as well

If they are arguing that discrimination based upon behavior equates to discrimination based upon an inherent characteristic yes. I would also point out that they are not representative of the mainstream of African American thought and opinion. At least not as far as I have been able to determine.

If you have something other than quotes, perhaps, academic, scientifically conducted surveys of African American persons then I would very much love to see it. But quite honestly I don't see any reason to take any of the individuals comments above and grant to them any more credibility than the fella who lives two doors down who also happens to be African American.

 

[SughaNSpice]

If they are arguing that discrimination based upon behavior equates to discrimination based upon an inherent characteristic yes.

Based on behavior – sort of like religion which is based on behavior – so I guess civil rights for religious minorities must be wrong as well.


Can you provide evidence that homosexuality is an inherent characteristic? You just claimed it was.