Fornication

[Rocketblast37]

And I don't know any law in the old testament that says a man must marry a engage woman he slept with but the only one where it says if a man sleeps with his sister. That's the only one I know where it says that two people must marry.

 

[Rocketblast37]

And if she wasn't engage (as ii can see, sorry I misread).. that don't make sense either actually seeing they were both free. Unless the man wasn't a virgin and she was innocent then that's rape. Because he touched a pure and innocent flower. Unless she slept with him then that would be her fault. I don't see why the man would have to pay any crime if she gave into it. The only way he would have to pay is of he raped her and trespassed her innocence of virginity. There must be a lot of men who are not virgins on earth on who sleeps with virgins. It never seemed like a crime in America. Actually it seems normal. Just as there are women who are not virgins sleep with men who are. Etc so.

 

[Rocketblast37]

And there's no way to prove who is a virgin or not on earth. That's just impossible. Only God knows that truth. People will lie and say they are virgins when in truth they might not have been.

 

[Radagast]

If it was without her knowledge and he raped her then she don't have to marry him but he deserves some kind of punish to pay for the crime he did.

The punishment is right there in the Scripture I quoted: "he must still pay the bride-price for virgins."

And if it was consensual, then marriage is indeed the appropriate thing.

 

[createdtoworship]

It doesn't just produce less, sometimes it has to come out, and if you aren't having it come out under your control, it'll come out when you sleep, and under Leviticus, that still makes you unclean.
It's also a nasty mess to have to wake up to at 3am and have to shower and try to do laundry.
You won't die, but you will have wet dreams, and those aren't exactly a desirable outcome.

Wet dreams are literally out of our control. A woman's period was unclean it was just sanitary laws. Today we have tampons.

 

[Jamdoc]

Wet dreams are literally out of our control. A woman's period was unclean it was just sanitary laws. Today we have tampons.

and masturbating to get rid of the old sperm in a more controlled manner is in your control.
If you pee your bed in your sleep it's out of your control too, but wouldn't you rather just pee before you lay down so that doesn't happen?

 

[createdtoworship]

and masturbating to get rid of the old sperm in a more controlled manner is in your control.
If you pee your bed in your sleep it's out of your control too, but wouldn't you rather just pee before you lay down so that doesn't happen?

Well again that lacks biblical support. Some people need opiods to help them with pain that does not mean they should use it every day to get their fix in.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well again that lacks biblical support. Some people need opiods to help them with pain that does not mean they should use it every day to get their fix in.

There seems to be some peculiar logic going on here between the two of you. Perhaps it is a good time to step back, take a breath, and each ask yourself whether or not your analogies are actually universally true and if they are at all helpful in furthering useful discussion.

 

[Jamdoc]

Well again that lacks biblical support. Some people need opiods to help them with pain that does not mean they should use it every day to get their fix in.

and yet it doesn't mean they should suffer needlessly if the medication is truly to relieve their pain. God made the opium poppy for a reason.
Often times, sin is about what's going through your mind more than a physical act, depending on whether that physical act itself is causing harm or not. That's part of why we're guided by the Holy Spirit rather than being legalists. We're to use judgement and discernment from situation to situation because the law by itself doesn't discern and can end up causing more harm than good if followed to the letter while missing the spirit of the law in its practice.
If you're abusing a drug to get high, that's most certainly sin. If you're using the same drug in smaller doses to alleviate physical pain connected to a medical issue, that's not sin.
If you're masturbating to porn while fantasizing about having sex with the woman on the screen or magazine page or your imagination of a real woman you know that might be someone else's wife, where's your heart at? It's in lust and fornication and maybe even adultery.
If you are masturbating while thinking of your wife because you love her and miss her (the deployed soldier scenario) and want to be spending time together with her, even sexually, and are thinking about joy with her, is that sin?
If you're simply taking care of a biological need to get rid of old sperm to not have wet dreams, and aren't using porn or lusting about someone to do it.. where's your heart, it's not in lust or adultery or fornication. So I wouldn't see the sin in the physical act itself.
Mind you I'm not defending pornography, that in itself causes harm, stirs lust, and just compounds sins on top of other sins.
But I think with the absence of any mentions of the physical act of masturbation itself.. that the physical act is not sin, and that we should use discernment and judge where our heart is.

 

[Rocketblast37]

The punishment is right there in the Scripture I quoted: "he must still pay the bride-price for virgins."

And if it was consensual, then marriage is indeed the appropriate thing.

Um what do you mean consensual?

 

[Rocketblast37]

and yet it doesn't mean they should suffer needlessly if the medication is truly to relieve their pain. God made the opium poppy for a reason.
Often times, sin is about what's going through your mind more than a physical act, depending on whether that physical act itself is causing harm or not. That's part of why we're guided by the Holy Spirit rather than being legalists. We're to use judgement and discernment from situation to situation because the law by itself doesn't discern and can end up causing more harm than good if followed to the letter while missing the spirit of the law in its practice.
If you're abusing a drug to get high, that's most certainly sin. If you're using the same drug in smaller doses to alleviate physical pain connected to a medical issue, that's not sin.
If you're masturbating to porn while fantasizing about having sex with the woman on the screen or magazine page or your imagination of a real woman you know that might be someone else's wife, where's your heart at? It's in lust and fornication and maybe even adultery.
If you are masturbating while thinking of your wife because you love her and miss her (the deployed soldier scenario) and want to be spending time together with her, even sexually, and are thinking about joy with her, is that sin?
If you're simply taking care of a biological need to get rid of old sperm to not have wet dreams, and aren't using porn or lusting about someone to do it.. where's your heart, it's not in lust or adultery or fornication. So I wouldn't see the sin in the physical act itself.
Mind you I'm not defending pornography, that in itself causes harm, stirs lust, and just compounds sins on top of other sins.
But I think with the absence of any mentions of the physical act of masturbation itself.. that the physical act is not sin, and that we should use discernment and judge where our heart is.

Sometimes drugs make people get under euphoria and lust... Drugs has all kinds of side effects...

 

[Radagast]

Um what do you mean consensual?

I mean that Exodus 22:16-17 also covers cases where the young woman and the young man wanted to have sex with each other. And in that case, they should marry.

 

[Rocketblast37]

I mean that Exodus 22:16-17 also covers cases where the young woman and the young man wanted to have sex with each other.

Well I didn't see that part. I guess they would have to marry but don't a lot of people do that every day. Have sex with thier boyfriend and girlfriend..? I don't get it cause it seems like people been doing that.

 

[Radagast]

Well I didn't see that part. I guess they would have to marry but don't a lot of people do that every day. Have sex with thier boyfriend and girlfriend..? I don't get it cause it seems like people been doing that.

Yes, but Exodus 22:16-17 made it a law for the ancient Jews: if they got caught, they should get married:

And if the father thinks that it wasn't right what the young man did, then she doesn't have to marry him, but the young man still has to pay the "bride-price" money that the ancient Jews paid when they got married.

Exodus 22:16-17: If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

 

[Rocketblast37]

Yes, but Exodus 22:16-17 made it a law for the ancient Jews: if they got caught, they should get married:

And if the father thinks that it wasn't right what the young man did, then she doesn't have to marry him, but the young man still has to pay the "bride-price" money that the ancient Jews paid when they got married.

Exodus 22:16-17: If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

But what if the woman lied and wasn't really a virgin? To me it sounds like it's implying the woman he seduced wasn't pledged to be married to him ..but that maybe he was pledged to be marry to someone else..I don't know but I'm kinda curious now...what is bride price money? And if he was "engaged", why would the other person take him to be married if he seduced another woman and had sex with her...

 

[Radagast]

But what if the woman lied and wasn't really a virgin?

That doesn't matter. It is assumed that a woman who is not married or engaged was a virgin.

To me it sounds like it's implying the woman he seduced wasn't pledged to be married to him

Not to him and not to anybody else.

I'm kinda curious now...what is bride price money?

Like many other cultures, the ancient Hebrews said that a man had to pay money to the father of the bride.

 

[Jamdoc]

Sometimes drugs make people get under euphoria and lust... Drugs has all kinds of side effects...

That's why It's a situation by situation discernment not a blanket of "drugs bad". Because the difference between using a drug for sin and using it as medicine for healing is determined by who's using it for what purpose and how much.
Alcohol is a sin when drank in excess to get drunk, but it's also a good solvent for medicines, so you might have a small teaspoon of alcohol with medicine dissolved in it. Did you get drunk? No. Is it sin? God is more discerning than that. The Lord pondereth the hearts.

 

[createdtoworship]

and masturbating to get rid of the old sperm in a more controlled manner is in your control.
If you pee your bed in your sleep it's out of your control too, but wouldn't you rather just pee before you lay down so that doesn't happen?

There seems to be some peculiar logic going on here between the two of you. Perhaps it is a good time to step back, take a breath, and each ask yourself whether or not your analogies are actually universally true and if they are at all helpful in furthering useful discussion.

so again masturbation is not needed. Schools even doctors recommend it as an alternative to unprotected sex. It's their abstinence program basically so you will only find out positive stuff out there on it. But it's actually very unheathy for a host of reasons I mention. I for example have not done so in about 13 months, and have only had maybe 2 or 3 wet dreams the whole time. So God knows what He is doing, he is not going to create a male sex organ then make it overload with sperm for example. That is not the way God works. The body naturally discharges it when need through urine as well as other methods I mention. But it's not unhealthy to refrain from lusting with infinite amounts of online women, via pornography. Simply because you are wanting your fix in. Pornography is actually very violent and demeaning to women, and God desires us to honor them as a sister in Christ.

 

[Rocketblast37]

That doesn't matter. It is assumed that a woman who is not married or engaged was a virgin.



Not to him and not to anybody else.



Like many other cultures, the ancient Hebrews said that a man had to pay money to the father of the bride.

There's no way to prove if the woman was a virgin or not unless she had kids etc. And it seems like it does imply that the man was pledged to marry someone else because it says he seduced a woman not "pledged" to be marry which makes me believe he had another woman out there who was pledged to be married to him. But like I said there's no way to prove if someone is a virgin today unless the doctor can do tests etc. And I know sometimes people do things in God's laws without knowing it's in the bible vice versa. They can also use God's law to have it come to pass on purpose too... But God is not mocked whatever a person sow they will reap....

 

[Rocketblast37]

That's why It's a situation by situation discernment not a blanket of "drugs bad". Because the difference between using a drug for sin and using it as medicine for healing is determined by who's using it for what purpose and how much.
Alcohol is a sin when drank in excess to get drunk, but it's also a good solvent for medicines, so you might have a small teaspoon of alcohol with medicine dissolved in it. Did you get drunk? No. Is it sin? God is more discerning than that. The Lord pondereth the hearts.

I mean all drugs have side effects..some worst then others...drugs can do quite a number on a person...drugs are bad period. Stay away from drugs.