Fornication in long term relationship

[clep]

My partner and I have reconciled after a year apart in a ten year relationship. We have lived together for that time period except for the past year. He moved back in a few months ago. Things have been going famously and we plan to be married in the next few months and we start our Alpha marriage prep course in a couple of days. Our son is seven years old.

We have found a church and have been going for the past couple of months. Life is great and we are nurturing a relationship with God. In our reading a couple of weeks ago we had a realization about fornication that we never had before. Now that we believe differently it is something we take much more seriously. We have not had sex in the past two weeks.

We asked one of our pastors if it is advisable to wait until we are married to make love again. She didn't really give us a straight answer. We asked another pastor and he didn't either. One said "I would advise a new couple...", but said not to stop sleeping in the same bed or having one of us move out until marriage. I am not willing to live apart until marriage anyways. The other pastor said "well you have been living together as a married couple for the last ten years except for a year". He kind of chuckled.

Can anyone out there tell me scripturally what the best route may be to go? Is it a sin if we make love before the wedding date if we have been doing that for so long? Can we do that if god knows in our hearts our desire and plan to marry now?

I believe that when we were not aware, god will forgive us for that, but since we are aware now of the sin of fornication we will not enter the kingdom of heaven if we knowingly commit a sin. Am I just too rigid?

Thank you

 

[fm107]

Hi Clep,

As you said yourself, you were unaware of this being a sin before but know that you know about this I urge you to abstain. You have managed to do so for a year now so just continue and wait it out.

I think your conscience even is telling you this.

..........................................................................................

I noticed you also said that you talked to a woman pastor.

According to scripture (God's word) women are not to become pastors. This is God's natural order of things.

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed

This is a concern. If I were in your shoes I would be re-thinking about what Church to attend. It is hard to find a Church which follows the bible but the one you are currently attending seems to have lost it's way because it is not following God's word.

God also told us that women ought to have their head's covered. My guess is since their are women pastors at your Church they probably are not obeying this teaching either:

1 Corinthians 11:5
And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved.

Why do women have to wear a head covering? For the sake of the angels...

1 Corinthians 11:10
For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

..........................................................................................

You also said if you knowingly commit sin you will not get into Heaven.

I do not believe this is scriptural.

James 4:17
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

I've known what I ought to do and decided not to do it knowing it was the right thing to do. (I regretted it later)

But for a Christian who knows what they ought to do and continues to sin anyway, it is a greater sin to them because they have the conviction.

That's my thoughts on that point you made.

.............................................................................................

Hope I have helped you with your question.


God bless.

 

[visionary]

Now that you have a "born again" spirit in you directing your life in Him.. follow the conviction to wait.

 

[heymikey80]

My partner and I have reconciled after a year apart in a ten year relationship. We have lived together for that time period except for the past year. He moved back in a few months ago. Things have been going famously and we plan to be married in the next few months and we start our Alpha marriage prep course in a couple of days. Our son is seven years old.

We have found a church and have been going for the past couple of months. Life is great and we are nurturing a relationship with God. In our reading a couple of weeks ago we had a realization about fornication that we never had before. Now that we believe differently it is something we take much more seriously. We have not had sex in the past two weeks.

We asked one of our pastors if it is advisable to wait until we are married to make love again. She didn't really give us a straight answer. We asked another pastor and he didn't either. One said "I would advise a new couple...", but said not to stop sleeping in the same bed or having one of us move out until marriage. I am not willing to live apart until marriage anyways. The other pastor said "well you have been living together as a married couple for the last ten years except for a year". He kind of chuckled.

Well, they're looking at this as a "quantity" issue. It's not.

There are two nuances that are really problematic, okay? You and your husband to be should mutually agree on your viewpoint. Sexuality brings with it certain awakenings which, when they're done too early, become powerful urges (Scripturally, this is stated again & again in Song of Solomon: don't awaken love before its time).

A failure to hold the line after this point is still forgivable. As you go on in Christian life you'll discover Christ Jesus does a lot for aware sins as well as unaware sins. But yes, now that you know, you can see that the sin is cutting at your spirit, internally. It is worse than when you didn't realize it.

And that could hurt your relationship in marriage if you don't hold off.

Can anyone out there tell me scripturally what the best route may be to go? Is it a sin if we make love before the wedding date if we have been doing that for so long? Can we do that if god knows in our hearts our desire and plan to marry now?

Scripturally the best route is to abstain, and look forward expectantly to a marriage relationship that is not tainted with sinfulness.

For those who are longing for right relationships, their sexual relationships become a relief and a joy under the marriage bond.

I believe that when we were not aware, god will forgive us for that, but since we are aware now of the sin of fornication we will not enter the kingdom of heaven if we knowingly commit a sin. Am I just too rigid?

You will discover that there are plenty of sins that you become aware of, that you willfully do. Again, the consequences of sin in your relationships, that's the problem. God forgives as you turn in repentance, and agree with Him that it is sin -- including the sin of willfulness in sinning. They're all sin. And God has made a way of forgiveness at a high price to Himself.

 

[fm107]

we will not enter the kingdom of heaven if we knowingly commit a sin.

I was thinking about this a little today.

I thought of Peter, he denied the Lord three times, he knew what the right thing was to do but was scared for his life.

The more I think of this though, the more I realise how much sin we do which is in fact things we know are sinful.

Every lie is a sin but can we honestly say we have never lied at least once since we have become saved?

 

[clep]

Well, they're looking at this as a "quantity" issue. It's not.

There are two nuances that are really problematic, okay? You and your husband to be should mutually agree on your viewpoint. Sexuality brings with it certain awakenings which, when they're done too early, become powerful urges (Scripturally, this is stated again & again in Song of Solomon: don't awaken love before its time).

A failure to hold the line after this point is still forgivable. As you go on in Christian life you'll discover Christ Jesus does a lot for aware sins as well as unaware sins. But yes, now that you know, you can see that the sin is cutting at your spirit, internally. It is worse than when you didn't realize it.

And that could hurt your relationship in marriage if you don't hold off.

Scripturally the best route is to abstain, and look forward expectantly to a marriage relationship that is not tainted with sinfulness.

For those who are longing for right relationships, their sexual relationships become a relief and a joy under the marriage bond.

You will discover that there are plenty of sins that you become aware of, that you willfully do. Again, the consequences of sin in your relationships, that's the problem. God forgives as you turn in repentance, and agree with Him that it is sin -- including the sin of willfulness in sinning. They're all sin. And God has made a way of forgiveness at a high price to Himself.

Thank you for this response in particular. We are still abstaining and have decided to continue to do that.

I believe that as I grow in my relationship with God I will be made aware of a multitude of other sins I am not aware of now. I do not believe though in just asking for forgiveness and doing the same thing again and again.

I have a particular problem with the knowledge of sin and the willfulness to keep acting out that particular sin. The moment I realized we were committing sin in sleeping together, it has not happened since. We made a choice to live for the will of God instead of our own and it has not been difficult to achieve at all.

Thank you for your response.

 

[clep]

I was thinking about this a little today.

I thought of Peter, he denied the Lord three times, he knew what the right thing was to do but was scared for his life.

The more I think of this though, the more I realise how much sin we do which is in fact things we know are sinful.

Every lie is a sin but can we honestly say we have never lied at least once since we have become saved?

I think there is more to the idea of the sin of lying. I remember many years ago I was a chronic liar. I later went on a rigorous personal journey to better myself. I found that with consistent work in that area I lied less and less. It was the result of getting to know myself and I didn't even know that would be a result. I found that I lied due to fear, insecurity, lack of self worth and many other reasons. When I worked on all of the roots that caused me to lie I no longer felt the need to lie and that was gone from my life.

When I looked at it, every lie I told whether significant or minute was for a reason of something lacking in myself.

I can say that I do not lie now, nor do I have to. If I feel like I want to, I have to say I will talk about whatever it is I am discussing later on. I can then reflect upon what is lacking in myself, pick up the conversation again and be truthful. It has been the most liberating thing in my life.

I can say that before I came to God I was truthful. I never would have been though without learning about myself to that point. I don't know if a relationship with God would have been enough, but I can't really say though as I have never been in that position.

 

[heron]

This is a good illustration of repentance. You did not know before, you yielded your life to God, and now you feel conviction. Jesus said, "Go and sin no more."

Your scriptural answer.
I would have chuckled too though. Legally you had reached a commonlaw status, so by law and in public recognition, you were committed to each other.

But then in separating, that shuffles things a bit. I think that God is using this time to show you what conviction and repentance and commitment are about.

A couple months, you can treat it like a fast. Or an exercise in relating to your partner in a new, more spiritual way. (Maybe, I'm guessing.) You sound willing to make this decision even if mature Christians tell you otherwise.

When things are between ourselves and God, it is good to value that. No matter what people say, it will all come down to how He relates to you. Treasure it, because He can be such an anchor when people get random.

I think there is more to the idea of the sin of lying.

Good point.

 

[chilehed]

To have intimate relations with one to whom you are not married is gravely sinful. To sleep in the same bed is to place yourself in the near occasion of sin (which itself is a sin), and to live under the same roof is only slightly less near. In addition, if you live under the same roof then a reasoable person would assume that you are having relations, thus you would be giving scandal which is also sinful.

The wisest course of action would be for one of you to move out until you're married, and of course to not have intimate relationships until that time as well.

 

[clep]

To have intimate relations with one to whom you are not married is gravely sinful. To sleep in the same bed is to place yourself in the near occasion of sin (which itself is a sin), and to live under the same roof is only slightly less near. In addition, if you live under the same roof then a reasoable person would assume that you are having relations, thus you would be giving scandal which is also sinful.

The wisest course of action would be for one of you to move out until you're married, and of course to not have intimate relationships until that time as well.

I am well aware you do not have the intimate knowledge of why it is completely out of the question for one of us to move out. Not sleeping in the same bed is fine, not sleeping together is fine as well, but one of us moving out is not going to happen.

I do not make decisions in my life that impact my family and especially my child based upon the perceptions of another person and what they think is sinful in my life. If I lived for the perceptions of scandal to others my life would be in constant turmoil, as what some would find scandalous others may not. They would be judgmental and that is something I would keep them in my prayers for. The only person I answer to is god, no human being on earth.

 

[clep]

A couple months, you can treat it like a fast. Or an exercise in relating to your partner in a new, more spiritual way. (Maybe, I'm guessing.) You sound willing to make this decision even if mature Christians tell you otherwise.

Thank you. Very well put and a wonderful way of thinking of it.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

I'm on board the "hold out until it's official" train.

If you can wait just a couple months, you can guarantee that you won't feel guilty about anything. And 5 years from now, you wont remember these months at all. (well maybe you will but you get my point...)

 

[chilehed]

I am well aware you do not have the intimate knowledge of why it is completely out of the question for one of us to move out. Not sleeping in the same bed is fine, not sleeping together is fine as well, but one of us moving out is not going to happen.

I do not make decisions in my life that impact my family and especially my child based upon the perceptions of another person and what they think is sinful in my life. If I lived for the perceptions of scandal to others my life would be in constant turmoil, as what some would find scandalous others may not. They would be judgmental and that is something I would keep them in my prayers for. The only person I answer to is god, no human being on earth.

My dear sister,

You asked for counsel on the wisest course, and I answered. If there are legitimate reasons for not doing the wisest thing, then you needn't be testy with me about it. As you admit, all I know is that you managed to live apart for a year until recently, so it seems reasonable for an outsider to conclude that you might be able to do it again.

Like it or not, we are responsible for being good examples of Christian life, which includes refraining from behavior which would tend to lead others to do evil. Living together out of wedlock does just that. Resonable people will conclude that you are sleeping together, and it constitutes by one's action a claim that such is compatible with Christian morality. It thus tempts others to evil and contributes to the decline of morals in general.

We will indeed all answer to God, who is greatly pleased by our willingness to submit to great difficulty in order to avoid even the appearance of sin.

You are in my prayers.

 

[chilehed]

*

 

[salida]

What is very disturbing is that you have encountered pastors that haven't said anything and one laughed. God called pastors and you and me to be a light to a dying world. The bible is the Word of God and we all are suppose to live in holiness because God is holy. I'm thankful that you recognize its living in sin-and its not the way that God wants us to live. Get married first than continue-fornication is not moral.

If my pastor was like that, I would leave that church asap. This pastor isn't getting it-and I would question his christianity-he is way too apathic. Jesus said to be a fruit inspector-not answering someone honestly is not right!

 

[heron]

Boaz performed a marriage ceremony by saying, "Sit down. We're going to exchange sandals."

Ruth 4:1 - 11 - NAS - without Study Resources - Study Desk

I do not make decisions in my life that impact my family and especially my child based upon the perceptions of another person and what they think is sinful in my life.

If your child is also his, this makes a huge difference. We could spout off all kinds of rules about fornication, but these would need to stand beside the rules about fatherhood responsibilities.


Deuteronomy 22:28 (in the days before birth control)

If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his woman because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

1 Timonthy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

If the child was not his, then he is taking responsibility in a similar way to how Joseph married Mary who was not pregnant with his child.

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

II Corinthians 12:14 (Paul to believers)
I do not seek what is yours, but you; for children are not responsible to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

 

[heymikey80]

I believe that as I grow in my relationship with God I will be made aware of a multitude of other sins I am not aware of now. I do not believe though in just asking for forgiveness and doing the same thing again and again.

You're right, just asking for forgiveness in a formula doesn't cut it. Just admitting you did something isn't a "get outta jail free" card. Often we mistake "confession" for that -- an admission of what we did.

The word "confession" means that we are agreeing with God as to His attitude and dislike of a sin, not just saying, "Yep, I did it, isn't that a hoot!" The word (in Greek) is actually "agree-over". It's not "admit what I did". The impact of this is immense -- if you're in agreement with God, your hatred of sin, this sin, should at least exist. And so your repentance and change are the obvious, normal result.

I have a particular problem with the knowledge of sin and the willfulness to keep acting out that particular sin. The moment I realized we were committing sin in sleeping together, it has not happened since. We made a choice to live for the will of God instead of our own and it has not been difficult to achieve at all.

That's excellent, and I'm very pleased for you. Sexual sin is very difficult because of its follow-on desires.

At some point though, you're going to find your will does not bend so quickly. It may be over something more entrenched in your life than right now. At that point you'll see what I mean. You will take on that initial agreement with God, and then -- then you'll be confronted by a defiance in your heart you never thought was possible.

When you do, don't lose heart. God's bigger than that. He can defeat far more than you expect. And it's Him working on you from the inside out, to be the person what He intends.

Your fiance may need to recognize this as well. It can be tough, so -- you may need to be a compassionate teacher of your own fiance.

 

[clep]

At some point though, you're going to find your will does not bend so quickly. It may be over something more entrenched in your life than right now. At that point you'll see what I mean. You will take on that initial agreement with God, and then -- then you'll be confronted by a defiance in your heart you never thought was possible.

When you do, don't lose heart. God's bigger than that. He can defeat far more than you expect. And it's Him working on you from the inside out, to be the person what He intends.

Your fiance may need to recognize this as well. It can be tough, so -- you may need to be a compassionate teacher of your own fiance.

I am grateful that I am not in the position regarding this to be the teacher of my finance. He and I are in agreement that we should not be having sex before marriage. I am also grateful that he and I have come to this place at the same time in our lives, but that does leave both of us yearning for more answers than we can get right now. Thank you.

 

[clep]

Boaz performed a marriage ceremony by saying, "Sit down. We're going to exchange sandals."

If your child is also his, this makes a huge difference. We could spout off all kinds of rules about fornication, but these would need to stand beside the rules about fatherhood responsibilities.


Deuteronomy 22:28 (in the days before birth control)

If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his woman because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

1 Timonthy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

If the child was not his, then he is taking responsibility in a similar way to how Joseph married Mary who was not pregnant with his child.

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

II Corinthians 12:14 (Paul to believers)
I do not seek what is yours, but you; for children are not responsible to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

The child we share is his....if I am not mistaking that you were unsure about that.

His father actually left us three times in the past five years. All three times he left our son for eight and ten months at a time with no contact. It was excruciating for our son. The abandonment and self esteem issues were so strong. Looking back God carried me and guided me as to how to aid our son through that tough time. Our son tried to kill himself four times last year. I had him in all sorts of therapy and lived for him for a full year.

His dad had addiction issues and God also carried us through that. Now that my son's dad has chosen to follow God's path for him life is amazing. It started with AA and ended up with a personal relationship with God. He was in AA before, but that wasn't enough. I am so proud of him and grateful for the miracles God has provided in our lives.

That is the reason dad and I will not live apart. I will not allow our son to go through that again, nor will dad thankfully. His has finally been the dad our son has always wanted and I am not about to tell our son that dad is going to move out for a couple of months. That was how it started before and a couple of weeks ended up being a long time.

Our responsibilities to our son in every way are worthy of dad and I living in the same home, not being sexually intimate. Our son doesn't suffer and neither does our relationship with God.

Is my last paragraph something like you were trying to say?

 

[clep]

What is very disturbing is that you have encountered pastors that haven't said anything and one laughed. G

If my pastor was like that, I would leave that church asap. This pastor isn't getting it-and I would question his christianity-he is way too apathic. Jesus said to be a fruit inspector-not answering someone honestly is not right!

We have six pastors at our church and the two I have met have been like you have mentioned. I am not happy with the one being so aloof about it. I would have preferred him to say something like "Yes it is a sin to fornicate and I would strongly advise for the both of you to abstain until you are married." I agree completely with what you are saying there.

I am not sure about leaving our church though either. I need to meet with the other pastors first and see if all of them are like this. I love our church and don't want to miss out on a wonderful place with hundreds of fantastic followers because of two. The two I spoke to I have never heard speak at church. I want to meet the one that does.