Fornication definition

[HuntingMan]

The Mosaic Law allowed a man to sell his daughter but not to sell his wife or concubine. I assume that gives some evidence of their relative value in that culture.

This brings to mind yet again Abraham.

So Abe wasnt allowed to 'sell' his wife, but making a harlot out of her was 'ok' (since Abe didnt know God was going to come to the rescue) ?

No, Abe didnt toss his wife out to be raped...he casually put her in a precarious position to be taken sexually by another man KNOWING that she was indeed his 'wife'.

Maybe Abe 'cared' for his wife just about the same as some men do their virgin daughters
I assume his actions give us some evidence of a 'wifes' relative value in that culture

I wonder just how far we can run with this ?



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[HuntingMan]

NHB_MMA, I hope by now you've come to understand the meaning of "God's definition." It's simply what what HM makes up when he wants to substitute his own assumptions for the facts of culture.

You mean the meaning we see clearly in this passage and the relevant definitions rather than your 'would a man let his wife be raped' nonsense ?
Unlike some here, I dont DEFINE Gods word BY mans cultural views.
GOD defines what marriage is fully and finally and IS the authority in the matter regardless of what some want to believe.
If HIS word shows that this is a 'marriage' then a 'marriage' it is.

http://studies.assembly-ministries.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=175&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel, that there was a certain Levite sojourning on the side of mount Ephraim, who took to him a concubine out of Bethlehemjudah.

And his concubine played the harlot against him, and went away from him unto her father's house to Bethlehemjudah, and was there four whole months.

And her husband arose, and went after her, to speak friendly unto her, and to bring her again, having his servant with him, and a couple of asses: and she brought him into her father's house: and when the father of the damsel saw him, he rejoiced to meet him.

And his father in law, the damsel's father, retained him; and he abode with him three days: so they did eat and drink, and lodged there. And it came to pass on the fourth day, when they arose early in the morning, that he rose up to depart: and the damsel's father said unto his son in law, Comfort thine heart with a morsel of bread, and afterward go your way.

And they sat down, and did eat and drink both of them together: for the damsel's father had said unto the man, Be content, I pray thee, and tarry all night, and let thine heart be merry. And when the man rose up to depart, his father in law urged him: therefore he lodged there again.

And he arose early in the morning on the fifth day to depart: and the damsel's father said, Comfort thine heart, I pray thee. And they tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them. And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father in law, the damsel's father, said unto him, Behold, now the day draweth toward evening, I pray you tarry all night: behold, the day groweth to an end, lodge here, that thine heart may be merry; and to morrow get you early on your way, that thou mayest go home.
(Jdg 19:1-9 KJV)

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The word 'father in law' is this

H2859
חתן
châthan
BDB Definition:
1) to become a son-in-law, make oneself a daughter’s husband
1a) (Qal) wife’s father, wife’s mother, father-in-law, mother-in-law (participle)
1b) (Hithpael) to make oneself a daughter’s husband

H2859
חתן
châthan
khaw-than'
A primitive root; to give (a daughter) away in marriage; hence (generally) to contract affinity by marriage: - join in affinity, father in law, make marriages, mother in law, son in law.

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And "son in law" is this

H2860
חתן
châthân
BDB Definition:
1) son-in-law, daughter’s husband, bridegroom, husband
Part of Speech: noun masculine

H2860
חתן
châthân
khaw-thawn'
From H2859; a relative by marriage (especially through the bride); figuratively a circumcised child (as a species of religious espousal): - bridegroom, husband, son in law.​

 

[HuntingMan]

Actually I just caught on to the humor in this one (Im a bit distracted working on a few websites)

Originally Posted by HuntingMan

No I chose a perfect example.
Apparently 'love' for ones children is something you dont comprehend in Gods word.
Was God 'ok' with a man 'sacrificing' his childrens lives or flesh ?
Shall we examine that a bit tonite, liz ?

Originally Posted by Crazy Liz
You really want to?
Let's start with Isaac.

Please tell me, Liz, that your point wasnt about Gods instruction to sacrifice Isaac which we know God did not carry out NOR could God have ever intended to given just who Isaac is in scripture.
Or are you going to claim that God 'changed' His mind but WAS going to have Isaac sacrificed EVEN THO Isaac was THE catalyst for so much of Gods plan to come ?
God NEVER intended for Isaac to be sacrificed otherwise we have to start questioning His omniscience.


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[NHB_MMA]

You both have made some good points. It seems the highest treatment was reserved for the wife, not concubine or daughter, in most accounts. They are examples that seem appalling in our very different world today.

Liz you were spot-on about the idea of children being the most important to be a recent, and misguided IMO, line of thinking.

 

[Crazy Liz]

This brings to mind yet again Abraham.

So Abe wasnt allowed to 'sell' his wife, but making a harlot out of her was 'ok' (since Abe didnt know God was going to come to the rescue) ?

No, Abe didnt toss his wife out to be raped...he casually put her in a precarious position to be taken sexually by another man KNOWING that she was indeed his 'wife'.

Maybe Abe 'cared' for his wife just about the same as some men do their virgin daughters
I assume his actions give us some evidence of a 'wifes' relative value in that culture

I wonder just how far we can run with this ?



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I thought the Law made it clear that the men of Israel were not to do the same.

 

[HuntingMan]

I thought the Law made it clear that the men of Israel were not to do the same.

Ive presented my case well enough.
Do you have an assertion to make or not ?

 

[ShermanN]

Back to the OP topic, the meaning of fornication. I believe "porneia", fornication refers at least to the types of sexual (married or not) relationships that were forbidden in the Mosaic Law (illegal and/or immoral relationships) and likely refers to any sexual relationships that are not both moral and legal - moral (personal and one's community of faith's religious convictions) and legal (civil authority).

 

[imluvd]

Now from what I have always learned that fornication is any sex before marriage. In O.T times there was not the traditional wedding ceremony like what we do today. That when a couple agreed to be married (engaged) they were considered to be married. But they were not actually united until the man built him and his wife a room off the family home and also came up with the dowry. When that was done there was a big feast in his family home, where everyone celebrated the union. Then sometime during the festivities the couple would go off to the room ( with his best friends outside the door) and the couple would consummate the union. When they were done, his friends would take the blanket out to everyone at the ceremony and show where she was a virgin. Thus, showing that sex always joined two people into one, that is why Paul said never to have sex with a prostitute, because do you want to be one with her? I feel this shows if people thought that every time that they had sex with someone that they were joined forever as one with that person, would you have so many people having casual sex?

Also, the bible says that having sex wasn't wrong as long as you married the person after the fact, but if you turned them away that you were committing a sin.

And as a side note. Abraham did wrong with what he did to Sarah, but man has free will and he would have had to pay the consequences for whatever might have happened to her. But God saved Abraham from himself, because remember Sarah was going to be the mother of many nations. God sure wouldn't have wanted her hurt or made unclean. And would Abraham have kept her after she had lain with another man? I am sure not, since in that culture it is customary to kill a woman for adultery or rape. God saves us sometimes from our own stupidity.

In closing, I think anytime we have sex with a person we do not have any intention of spending the rest of our lives with, then we are committing a sin and will have to answer for all the lives we have not took responsibility for.

 

[HuntingMan]

My view of 'porneia' is simply ANY sexual activity that is outside the marriage of a man and a woman with 'marriage' being defined simply as intent and commitment to be husband and wife for a lifetime, and that the two have verbalized this intent to commit to each other so that each knows the others intent.

 

[ShermanN]

Imluved,

I recommend to you Dr. Instone-Brewer's book "Divorce and Remarriage in the Bible; The Social and Literary Context". It's an excellent book on the ancient near-eastern social customs of marriage. In that culture, the marriage covenant was established when a man paid the bride-price. This typically happened a year or more before the wedding ceremony and cohabitation began. But the couple was considered married and after the covenant of marriage was established any children born to the couple were considered legitimate though the couple had not had the wedding ceremony or were living togther. A well known example of this is with Mary and Joseph, they were married though they had not been intimate. Marriage was based upon the establishment of the covenant of marriage, not upon either sexual intercourse or virginity.

 

[Rich2681]

okay so here is my view...

if fornications is sex outside of marriage would you consider a 3some involving ones wife and another woman to be a sin? the way i see it is that its not an affair since its something your are doing together. Its not outside of the marriage its included in it...any views on this?

 

[chingchang]

okay so here is my view...

if fornications is sex outside of marriage would you consider a 3some involving ones wife and another woman to be a sin? the way i see it is that its not an affair since its something your are doing together. Its not outside of the marriage its included in it...any views on this?

My guess is that it is o.k. because both parties in the marriage covenant agree to it and nobody is harmed. However...others will say that it defiles the marriage bed. Adultery can defile the marriage bed...and so can whoremongering (Heb 13:4). So...after defining those two words...ask the question again and you have your answer.

Hugs,
CC

 

[MarkSB]

This thread really came back? And still the same argument?

Adultery is defined as having relations with someone whom you are not married to, so it is still adultery. Wake up people.