Former Obama officials form anti Trump Think Tank

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a post by Alan Smithee
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This little charming group has been demonstrating for a while now as documented in the Borrego Sun newspaper.
M-Bob

Thank you for that. It just sounded weird that people would be randomly showing up to protest, but now I see what's going on.
Protesters Around Christmas Circle
>> Week-after-week since the Women’s March back in January, they come every Sunday to Christmas Circle for an hour of protest. <<
 
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Kentonio

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Again, a few points.

1. First, when reading a text, and discerning its meaning, when and where the meaning of the text can be found and discovered in the plain text itself, then this is the meaning of the text. This is a rational and common sense principle.

If someone wrote they were paid $100 dollars for their Sony Playstation, then meaning of what they wrote is someone paid for and received $100 for a Sony Playstation. The meaning of the text is unambiguously announced in the plain text.

Similarly, the text of the U.S. Constitution does not mandate the Senate to act upon a President's nomination. It is illogical to assert, as you attempt to do so here, that the U.S. Constitution mandates something not to be found anywhere in the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution does not mandate the Senate to act. Ergo, the Senate does not have any constitutional "duty" to act upon a particular nominee of the President. Your suggestion the Senate is mandated to do something not mentioned in the text is not a logical or rational argument.

Except that very little of the constitution is as black and white as that, which is why your Supreme Court has to interpret how it applies in a whole variety of cases. In this case the meaning of the authors had been interpreted in a particular way for centuries, that the president has the right to appoint nominees but that the senate has the right to confirm or not. For either to not perform their duty denies the other their right. It would be as equally a dereliction of duty for the president to simply not nominate anyone at all in order to hang onto a court balanced in their favor.

Just because the constitution authors were writing in a time where people took their duties seriously and they assumed that both parties in the matter would put the good of the country above their personal advantage doesn’t mean they intended this latest nonsense to occur and be acceptable.
 
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NotreDame

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Except that very little of the constitution is as black and white as that, which is why your Supreme Court has to interpret how it applies in a whole variety of cases. In this case the meaning of the authors had been interpreted in a particular way for centuries, that the president has the right to appoint nominees but that the senate has the right to confirm or not. For either to not perform their duty denies the other their right. It would be as equally a dereliction of duty for the president to simply not nominate anyone at all in order to hang onto a court balanced in their favor.

Just because the constitution authors were writing in a time where people took their duties seriously and they assumed that both parties in the matter would put the good of the country above their personal advantage doesn’t mean they intended this latest nonsense to occur and be acceptable.

A few points. First, the fact some parts of the Constitution require analysis beyond the plain text isn’t helpful for your argument here. The fact is the Constituonal provision regarding the Senate’s advice and consent IS black and white. The Constitution does not mandate the Senate to take any action regarding a President’s nomination.

In this case the meaning of the authors had been interpreted in a particular way for centuries, that the president has the right to appoint nominees but that the senate has the right to confirm or not

The “meaning” is what the plain text says. You are applying a non-sense principle that the plain text doesn’t say what it says.

How is it logical to assert a meaning not supported by any wording in the plain text meaning may be applied? This makes no sense.

Here’s an example of your irrational argument: When John makes an offer to the homeowner’s representative, the homeowner’s representative shall communicate the offer to homeowners, and then accept, reject, or counteroffer to John.

Now, based on your illogical argument, anyone could interpret the above example as requiring the homeowner and their rep to DISCUSS the offer. But the above prose doesn’t require any dialogue between the homeowner and their rep. Imposing a requirement not mentioned in the plain text above is illogical.

Your logic leads to absurd results:
Take the car and park it in the garage. (Meaning is discernible from plain text). Your view: put the horse in the stable.

“Cow jumped over the moon.” (Meaning is evident in plain text). Your view: cow jumped rope.

It’s non-sense to applying a meaning not supported by the plain text, which is what you are exactly doing.

Similarly, the plain text of the Constitution has no language requiring the Senate to take any action regarding a particular President’s nomination. Imposing one when the text doesn’t mention one makes no sense.

In this case the meaning of the authors had been interpreted in a particular way for centuries

First, so what! How people have interpreted a constitutional provision doesn’t validate the interpretation. Constitutional interpretation cannot logically be reduced to the ponderous argument of its always been interpreted that way.

doesn’t mean they intended this latest nonsense to occur and be acceptable

There is a difference between what the Constitution allows as an exercise of power and whether exercising the power in a particular manner would have drawn a rebuke from the authors. The two aren’t the same and the latter doesn’t impact what the Constitution says.

For instance, the authors would certainly disapprove of the vast social welfare programs created by Congress and funded by federal tax dollars under the General Welfare clause, but regardless, the General Welfare Clause gives Congress this power. The fact the authors disapprove of Congress’ particular exercise of their power under the General Welfare Clause doesn't show Congress lacks the power to act as they have.

In conclusion, the Constituon has no language requiring the Senate to act in regards to a President’s nomination. Ergo, your assertion failure of the Senate to act in regards to a particular Presidential nomination is a dereliction of their Constitutional “duties” is false.
 
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Kentonio

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First, so what! How people have interpreted a constitutional provision doesn’t validate the interpretation. Constitutional interpretation cannot logically be reduced to the ponderous argument of its always been interpreted that way.

Of course it can! Constitutional interpretation and precedent plays a huge part in how the constitution affects law. You can't just turn around one day and say 'Well we might have understood the constitution means x for the last 200 years, but actually we think it means y'. Well you can, but you generally have to take it to the Supreme Court and explain exactly why 200 years of precedent is apparently now worthless.

In conclusion, the Constituon has no language requiring the Senate to act in regards to a President’s nomination. Ergo, your assertion failure of the Senate to act in regards to a particular Presidential nomination is a dereliction of their Constitutional “duties” is false.

Question, is the Supreme Court a vital part of the United States governmental structure or is it not? If the entire Supreme Court was wiped out, would you make the argument that a president would be well within his constitutional duties to simply refuse to nominate replacements for the entirety of his or her term?

Because that's where your line of reasoning logically leads. The right of a president to nominate a justice is simply delineating that office as the one with the sole authority to nominate, its not saying that the president has the right to choose whether or not those seats should be actually nominated to be filled in the first place. Likewise while the senate most certainly has the power to refuse to confirm a nomination if they disagree with it, that doesn't mean they have to right to simply refuse to even consider nominees.

Your position basically relegates the judiciary to a subservient role rather than an equal branch of government. If seperation of powers has any meaning, then the executive or congress cannot have the power to leave the judiciary an empty shell.
 
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NotreDame

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Of course it can! Constitutional interpretation and precedent plays a huge part in how the constitution affects law. You can't just turn around one day and say 'Well we might have understood the constitution means x for the last 200 years, but actually we think it means y'. Well you can, but you generally have to take it to the Supreme Court and explain exactly why 200 years of precedent is apparently now worthless.


.

Of course it can! Constitutional interpretation and precedent plays a huge part in how the constitution affects law. You can't just turn around one day and say 'Well we might have understood the constitution means x for the last 200 years, but actually we think it means y'. Well you can, but you generally have to take it to the Supreme Court and explain exactly why 200 years of precedent is apparently now worthless.

My goodness. Your argument suffers from a lack of clarity. Your original comment made no reference to any decisions by a court. You originally said:

"In this case the meaning of the authors had been interpreted in a particular way for centuries..."
Your invocation of "precedent" invokes decisions by a court, perhaps the U.S. Supreme Court, or a court in the U.S Here is a flaw in your argument. There does not exist, to my knowledge, "centuries" of constitutional interpretation by any court, certainly not the U.S. Supreme Court, as to the Senate's Advice and Consent clause. Indeed, there is a conspicuous absence of decisions.

But assuming non-existent "precedent" did in fact exist, the argument that their age illuminates their validity when interpreting the U.S. Constitution is non-sense. Court decisions are not a fine wine that get better with age. The age of a decision is not an indication it was a right decision and neither is the age of a decision an indication that the court's interpretation is correct.

Your entire premise of the older the case, then the more correct or right its interpretation of the Constitution, makes no sense. None. There is no logical or rational relationship between the age of a case and the correctness of the constitutional interpretation of the case.

If the entire Supreme Court was wiped out, would you make the argument that a president would be well within his constitutional duties to simply refuse to nominate replacements for the entirety of his or her term?

This is easy. The answer is no. Why? Because as I have been saying, repeatedly, the plain text meaning of the U.S. Constitution very clearly says the president "shall." It is this same plain text meaning that I am relying upon to rebut your argument the Senate has any duty to act upon a particular Presidential nominee because the Plain Text does not have Any Requirement for the Senate to act.

The right of a president to nominate a justice is simply delineating that office as the one with the sole authority to nominate.

Yes, the plain text says the President has the sole authority to nominate. Applying your logic, we can reject this plain text meaning, which is exactly what you are doing, and instead assert the governors of the 50 states has the power to nominate. Yes, your reasoning leads to the illogical practice of arriving to meanings not supported by the plain text at all.

Please, give me a rational defense for your proposition the plain text meaning can be ignored and a meaning not supported by the plain text can be invoked. I resort to my examples below. Defend each.

When John makes an offer to the homeowner’s representative, the homeowner’s representative shall communicate the offer to homeowners, and then accept, reject, or counteroffer to John.

Now, based on your illogical argument, anyone could interpret the above example as requiring the homeowner and their rep to DISCUSS the offer. But the above prose doesn’t require any dialogue between the homeowner and their rep. Imposing a requirement not mentioned in the plain text above is illogical.

Your logic leads to absurd results:
Take the car and park it in the garage. (Meaning is discernible from plain text). Your view: put the horse in the stable.

“Cow jumped over the moon.” (Meaning is evident in plain text). Your view: cow jumped rope.

its not saying that the president has the right to choose whether or not those seats should be actually nominated to be filled in the first place

Does the plain text say the above? No. Why, please give me a rational reason as to why the above meaning should be applied to the plain text although the plain text does not support the quoted language.

Your position basically relegates the judiciary to a subservient role rather than an equal branch of government. If seperation of powers has any meaning, then the executive or congress cannot have the power to leave the judiciary an empty shell

Nope. Incorrect. The separation of powers doctrine has to do with the Constitution specifying specific roles of each branch of government and the other branches of government cannot exercise a power given to some other branch. My interpretation does not deprive the judiciary of its constitutional powers in the U.S. Constitution.

And you can dispense with this red herring non-sense of "empty shell." The Senate choosing to do nothing regarding Garland's appointment is not the equivalent of an "empty shell." The fact is, the Senate was not constitutionally required to act upon Garland's nomination.
 
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DaisyDay

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I hardly never say things like this
but
that church that he attended before becoming President was -- let's just say terrible.
M-Bob
Double negative is ambiguous - either the one negates the other, meaning you always say things like that, or it's a colloquial emphatic negative. Or, third possibility, a Freudian slip where by "hardly ever" became what you actually meant.
 
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AirPo

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Well here we go again and I'm probably going to get in trouble when I say, I don't really care for these people starting this Think Tank.

These ones it seems are doing their very best to divide our country and destroy the presidency of Mr. Trump.

Is this truly what the Liberals want or are these just a few on the far left?

As much as many conservatives did not care for Obama it seems we did not try to destroy the man and his policies.
M-Bob

Former Obama officials form anti-Trump national security think tank
Being anti-Trump is just true blooded American instinct. You shouldn't need a think tank to figure that out.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Double negative is ambiguous - either the one negates the other, meaning you always say things like that, or it's a colloquial emphatic negative. Or, third possibility, a Freudian slip where by "hardly ever" became what you actually meant.

You are correct and I beg of you please do not report me to my school teacher wife thank you Bob.
 
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DaisyDay

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You are correct and I beg of you please do not report me to my school teacher wife thank you Bob.
Correct about what? The double negative, obviously, but what you meant by it was open...
 
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Kentonio

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This is easy. The answer is no. Why? Because as I have been saying, repeatedly, the plain text meaning of the U.S. Constitution very clearly says the president "shall." It is this same plain text meaning that I am relying upon to rebut your argument the Senate has any duty to act upon a particular Presidential nominee because the Plain Text does not have Any Requirement for the Senate to act.

Nope. Incorrect. The separation of powers doctrine has to do with the Constitution specifying specific roles of each branch of government and the other branches of government cannot exercise a power given to some other branch. My interpretation does not deprive the judiciary of its constitutional powers in the U.S. Constitution.

...

And you can dispense with this red herring non-sense of "empty shell." The Senate choosing to do nothing regarding Garland's appointment is not the equivalent of an "empty shell." The fact is, the Senate was not constitutionally required to act upon Garland's nomination.

You are correct about the ‘shall’. The proposition remains however. SCOTUS is wiped out, the president nominates a new court and under your interpretation the Senate has the right to refuse to even consider those nominees.

If your interpretation were correct then the Judiciary is not an equal branch of government because congress could simply wait until they died off one by one and refuse to replace them. The constitutions authors very clearly did not envision a situation where the senate would simply refuse to perform their duties.
 
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NotreDame

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You are correct about the ‘shall’. The proposition remains however. SCOTUS is wiped out, the president nominates a new court and under your interpretation the Senate has the right to refuse to even consider those nominees.

If your interpretation were correct then the Judiciary is not an equal branch of government because congress could simply wait until they died off one by one and refuse to replace them. The constitutions authors very clearly did not envision a situation where the senate would simply refuse to perform their duties.

SCOTUS is wiped out, the president nominates a new court and under your interpretation the Senate has the right to refuse to even consider those nominees.

My argument does not lead to or support the conclusion "SCOTUS is wiped out." The Senate refusing to consider a single appointment to the U.S. Supreme Court, said appointment made very shortly after a vacancy occurred, and said vacancy anticipated to exist for mere months, is not the equivalent of "SCOTUS is wiped out," and this is especially true when A.) The Supreme Court has 8 justices on the Court, which is sufficient by statutory law to constitute as B.) A quorum for the Court to hear cases (28 U.S. Code § 1 - Number of justices; quorum, "The Supreme Court of the United States shall consist of a Chief Justice of the United States and eight associate justices, any six of whom shall constitute a quorum."

If this were a situation where the Senate's refusal to act would constitute as abolishing the existence of SCOTUS, then you'd have a great argument the Senate has violated the U.S. Constitution. But the violation by the Senate of the U.S. Constitution would not be the advice and consent clause but instead Article III, Section I, which requires the existence of the U.S. Supreme Court.

"The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court..."
So, once again, your reasoning does not establish the plain text of the advice and consent clause of the U.S. Constitution requires the Senate to act upon a particular appointment, and your apocalyptic event of SCOTUS disappearing would not implicate the advice and consent clause but Article III.

If your interpretation were correct then the Judiciary is not an equal branch of government because congress could simply wait until they died off one by one and refuse to replace them.

First, the above remark is false as it applies to SCOTUS. The federal judiciary would still exist in SCOTUS, as mandated by the U.S. Constitution. Your notion of a co-equal branch of government being destroyed is misguided and uninformed. The judiciary would remain a co-equal branch of government precisely because the Constitution mandates its existence in SCOTUS, and neither Congress or the President may lawfully eradicate the existence of SCOTUS. Ergo, neither Congress or the President may eradicate the judiciary as it is created and exists under the U.S. Constitution.

Second, all other courts in the federal judiciary exist at the discretion of Congress. Congress is vested with the power and authority to create all of the other courts. "The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."

The "inferior courts," unlike SCOTUS, is not created by the Constitution but by Congress. Once created by Congress, those inferior courts are vested with the judicial power of Article III. Why is this important?

Because the authors left the creation of the federal courts to the political process of Congress. Those inferior courts exist so long as Congress desires them to exist. Congress could abolish every single one of those inferior courts tomorrow and doing so would be constitutional. Yet, even if Congress did so, the federal judiciary would still exist in SCOTUS, since the Constitution requires the existence of SCOTUS and extends the judicial power to SCOTUS.

So, you have presented a fairy tale when you assert Congress could effectively do away with the federal judiciary under my interpretation.

Equally important is the fact the existence of the inferior courts, as created by Congress, is not jeopardized by the Senate refusing to take any action in regards to a specific nominee for a vacancy which has briefly existed and is not forecasted to exist beyond mere months.

constitutions authors very clearly did not envision a situation where the senate would simply refuse to perform their duties

No doubt, but the dilemma for your position is the plain text meaning of the U.S. Constitution did not create any "duty" for the Senate in regards a President's nomination. Hence, the Senate cannot possibly violate that which does not exist.

In conclusion, you have relied upon a fairy tale, doomsday scenario of a non-existent federal judiciary to justify ignoring the plain text meaning of the advice and consent clause of the U.S. Constitution. Since the U.S. Constitution requires the existence of a federal judiciary in SCOTUS, your fairy tale, apocalyptic event is precluded from occurring. The fictional, cataclysmic event of SCOTUS no longer existing is also precluded by the U.S. Constitution. You invoked two undesirable consequences as a justification to ignore the plain text meaning of the Constitution but when considering those undesirable consequences cannot lawfully materialize, the efficacy of your argument is cut down faster than Jack's magic beanstalk.

What's intriguing is why you'd conjure undesirable consequences that are precluded from occurring by the plain text meaning of a specific constitutional provision as going to occur unless the plain text meaning of another constitutional provision is abandoned? This is truly mystifying.

And your repeated, undaunted attempts to transform this dialogue into the equivalent of a non-existent federal judiciary, isn't logically a persuasive argument, for reasons noted above.
 
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Kentonio

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My argument does not lead to or support the conclusion "SCOTUS is wiped out."

Are you deliberately misunderstand the point? If you say the Senate has the right to not even discuss confirmation of a Supreme Court judge, then that must logically apply to ANY Supreme Court Judge. I gave the extreme example of if the court was wiped out en masse, to illustrate that given your position the Senate could simply refuse to replace them, leaving the judiciary in effect an empty shell rather than one of the branches of government.

You keep writing these long repetitive posts because you know very well that the above is absolutely not what the consitution writers intended. It doesn't matter one jot what 'plain text' you try and point to, if it came to a Supreme Court ruling on the matter I think you can rest assured they would not inteprete in favour of the Senate having unlimited power to deny the judiciary their own.

In case you missed the last 200 years, the SCOTUS does not practise exclusive constitutional literalism.
 
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NotreDame

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Are you deliberately misunderstand the point? If you say the Senate has the right to not even discuss confirmation of a Supreme Court judge, then that must logically apply to ANY Supreme Court Judge. I gave the extreme example of if the court was wiped out en masse, to illustrate that given your position the Senate could simply refuse to replace them, leaving the judiciary in effect an empty shell rather than one of the branches of government.

You keep writing these long repetitive posts because you know very well that the above is absolutely not what the consitution writers intended. It doesn't matter one jot what 'plain text' you try and point to, if it came to a Supreme Court ruling on the matter I think you can rest assured they would not inteprete in favour of the Senate having unlimited power to deny the judiciary their own.

In case you missed the last 200 years, the SCOTUS does not practise exclusive constitutional literalism.

If you say the Senate has the right to not even discuss confirmation of a Supreme Court judge, then that must logically apply to ANY Supreme Court Judge. I gave the extreme example of if the court was wiped out en masse, to illustrate that given your position the Senate could simply refuse to replace them, leaving the judiciary in effect an empty shell rather than one of the branches of government.

No, you have given an extreme example of the Senate refusing, apparently in perpetuity, any action for anyone nominated to SCOTUS when no justice(s) exists on the Court. Under such a scenario Congress would have to, at some point, take some action on a nomination because the Constitution, in Article III, Section 1, requires the existence of SCOTUS. They could not perpetually refuse to take any action for any nomination and thereby leave SCOTUS and the judiciary empty in perpetuity.

It is true the Senate would not be required to take action on the President’s very first nomination under your hypo but they couldn’t, consistent with the Constitution, do so perpetually. The Constitution creates a Supreme Court. So, Congress would have to take action on a nomination at some point.

Your scenario of an empty SCOTUS remaining empty as long as the the Senate desires implicates Article III, Section 1, and my interpretation certainly does not render the requirement of Article III, Section 1, null and void.

Again, you have conjured a fairytale consequence. My interpretation does not authorize the Senate to ignore Article III, Section 1's requirement that A.) SCOTUS exist and B.) Since SCOTUS exists then the Senate is required place at least one person on SCOTUS.

Equally important is the fact your nightmare scenario is not even the factual situation presently under discussion. The issue is the Senate not taking any action in regards to a particular SCOTUS nomination within the context of A.) 8 justices sitting on SCOTUS, B.) a vacancy in its infancy, C.) A vacancy not understood to persist for very long, C.) A vacancy still permitting the Court to have a quorum and hear cases, and D.) SCOTUS still functioning, hearing cases, petitions, etcetera.

Despite those above facts, which is what we are discussing, you invoke a scenario in which the Court lacks any justices, and consequently cannot hear cases, cannot function, etcetera, and this is maintained, seemingly in perpetuity, by the Senate perpetually refusing to act upon any nomination for as long as they desire.

Yes, it is non-sense to premise an argument on an example so very far removed from the factual scenario under discussion.

You keep writing these long repetitive posts because you know very well that the above is absolutely not what the consitution writers intended.

No, the long repetitive posts is the monotony of addressing your repeated invocation of a fairytale consequence the Constitution precludes the Senate from creating, and is not remotely related to the factual situation under discussion.

It doesn't matter one jot what 'plain text' you try and point to, if it came to a Supreme Court ruling on the matter I think you can rest assured they would not inteprete in favour of the Senate having unlimited power to deny the judiciary their own.

Once again, the flaw in your argument is the factual scenario under discussion is not what you described above. We are not discussing a factual scenario of the Senate having "unlimited power to deny the judiciary their own." This is not the factual issue. So, you can dispense with this digression and the sooner you avoid this red herring then hopefully, the quicker you make a rational argument.

The factual scenario under discussion is one in which SCOTUS does exist, its existence is not in jeopardy, its ability to function is not jeopardized, and the Senate refused to take any action in regards to a single nomination for a recent vacancy to the Court. That is the factual issue. Your fairytale consequence is not the factual issue.

In case you missed the last 200 years, the SCOTUS does not practise exclusive constitutional literalism

I could not care less. I am not advocating for literalism. Instead, I have invoked plain text meaning and for over the last 200 years, SCOTUS has invoked and relied upon plain text meaning.
 
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