Forgivness & Confession

[SumTinWong]

God is our Father, we would all agree with that (except maybe you folks who are not sure he is the Father of people outside your denomination) right?

When you were a kid, when you screwed up, did you have to say I am sorry to your dad? Obviously if he was worth his salt he may have remained mad for awhile but he did forgive you in the end.

Did you ever hurt your dad and not say you were sorry? I have, and it took me a long time before I actually tried to say it and mean it to my own dad. Come to find out he forgave me a long time ago, and had left all the bitterness back there. My asking for forgiveness helped guide our relationship back to where it belonged, and did heal many wounds on both sides, and even though we are not the best of pals, we have buried the past and have moved on.

I mention this for the reason, that I think that God does forgive us, even when we do not ask for forgiveness, but that being said, I do not want to be the one who severs or hampers that relationship by not asking him to forgive me. He isn't my buddy, or my pal, He is my God, and my Father. I owe him the respect by saying, Father, I have sinned against you, will you please forgive me?

I don't know where this whole thing came from that we do not have to ask Him for forgiveness. Why would Jesus teach us to ask for forgiveness as we have forgiven others if He didn't mean it??

 

[SumTinWong]

OK, Ill play. How do we know that they were not baptised?

Who is playing? I just asked a question. If you don't have the answer move on.

I don't know that they were or they were not, which is why I was asking the question, were they ever baptized?

 

[Qoheleth]

Who is playing? I just asked a question. If you don't have the answer move on.

I did, you must have missed it. So yes, lets move on

 

[SumTinWong]

St. Mary and St. Joseph were still in the Old Covenant. Problem solved.

Really? Okay.

Did the old covenant cover Peter and the disciples as well? Were they in some sort of gray area, or in between the Gospel and the law? Did they have to be baptized or were they under the law as well? What about the people that were alive during Christ's time? They were a part of the old coventant as well, were they not? They were all commanded to be Baptized, what was the difference?

 

[Qoheleth]

The bible tells us that it is not by works that we are saved, but by grace...Baptsim shall not get you saved

Then isnt baptism a work that Jesus commanded? Why would our Lord command a work if it serves no purpose in our salvation. Is there no grace associated with baptism, according to you?

(PS Would you please show me the scripture verses that say specifically: "...this Baptism now does save you..." And "...Baptism is for the remision of sins...") lol

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Acts 2:38-39 -- Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children [/font]

1 Peter 3:20b-21-- ... and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

 

[SumTinWong]

I did, you must have missed it. So yes, lets move on

You didn't answer anything, you answered my question with one of your own. Perhaps you meant to type a response but somehow it never made it to the screen?
But anyway, yes, let's move on...

 

[Qoheleth]

I don't know where this whole thing came from that we do not have to ask Him for forgiveness. Why would Jesus teach us to ask for forgiveness as we have forgiven others if He didn't mean it??

So, then you agree. Asking for forgiveness is needed and in addition why would one, who believes that their sins are forgiven, not want to confess and repent by being completely humbled in the fact they have received forgiveness

 

[SumTinWong]

So, then you agree.

Obviously. I have not been in the camp that doesn't agree.

Asking for forgiveness is needed and in addition why would one, who believes that their sins are forgiven, not want to confess and repent by being completely humbled in the fact they have received forgiveness

I agree here as well. It is needed, and it should be done.

 

[Qoheleth]

You didn't answer anything

Sorry, I said "Indeed" which was to show agreement with the post. It was answered in the affirmative on the use of the word "indeed"


Q

 

[Qoheleth]

Obviously. I have not been in the camp that doesn't agree.

I never implied that you were not. I am affirming your sentiments


Q

 

[SumTinWong]

Sorry, I said "Indeed" which was to show agreement with the post. It was answered in the affirmative on the use of the word "indeed"

Q

Ahh I see, I did not realize that posting a one word response to someone elses post, constituted a response to my question. I apologize for my error.

So you then agree that Mary and Joseph were under the old covenant then, and that would be your response to the question of whether they were baptized or not?

 

[rugerfann]

Baptism is a covenant. A covenant is an agreement between two sides; God and the people or individual. Have you fulfilled your end of the bargain if you continue to live in unrepentent sin? No.

Will you ever get off the legalistic sin issue?Seriously God isn't dealing with man anymore on the basses of sin.He is dealing with the Issue of Life now.

2 corinthians 5:19"That God was in Christ,reconciling the world unto himself,NOT COUNTING THERE SINS AGAINST THEM"

You got to chuck this right out the window to believe he is still dealing with you on the basses of Sin.

You saying he is counting your sins against you and they whernt forgiven at the Cross.

He paid the price, but we must accept it. And that means repenting constantly of any sins we do after our baptisms. Otherwise, we've forsaken our baptisms and shoved it to God's nose. No thank you.

Nope,He Paid the price for you sin,whether you wanted him to or not!His life you must accept in you,nothing else.

Puting your self in the position you must acept his forgiveness puts YOU<YOU<YOU into salvation and geting your sins forgiven instead of christ.He doesnt need your premision to forgive sins.

He will if I repent of them.

Again god isn't dependant on what you want.This isn't the day of Atonment.Please stop going back to the day of Atonment and acting like you had some say in Christ taking away All sin at the cross,except blasphemy of the Holy Ghost!

Only if I keep my end of my baptismal covenant.

YOU,YOU,YOU.This isn't about YOU.He forgave all your sins whether you acept it or not.There is only one sins that remains.

False. The Greek says "born from above," meaning to forsake sinning. That means if you sin, you must repent of that sin. Those who do begin to master their sins with God's help. Those who don't are spiritually dead.

You don't seem to know what Spiritual Life is.It's christ living in you.

Not this life.

This Spiritual Life in you.Again you think I'm talking of pyshical life and i'm not!

Law? What law? God's covenant with me when I was baptized? If that is "Law" to you, then sobeit. Forsake your baptism all you want; I shant mine.

Yes the Law of the Old Covenant that Jews tried to do works to have part in there salvation.This is one does when they try to add anything Jesus has done.

 

[rugerfann]

So, you can walk into Paradise with unforgiven sins???

Sigh Christ Jesus forgave all sins at the cross but one!So no one walks into heaven with unforgiven sins if the have acepted Christ Jesus into them.

Isnt that what Christ did on the cross, forgive us our sins? Thereby we are Justified by the merits of Christs work before the Father by obtaining for us the foregiveness of sins?

Yes,but fogiveness of Sins doesnt save you,His Life does.

Can sin exist in Heaven?

No

{quote]Have you ever been angry in your life? Will you ever be angry again?[/quote]

alot,and jesus paid for and took everyone of my Sins away

If your love for Christ and what He has done for you by His suffering is so intense, humbling, and ever before you, dont you ever want to fall on your knees and say Im sorry or at least feel bad about the sins especially you commit when you remember His suffering to gain you this forgiveness??

Here is the heart of the argument!Nothing I can do merit forgiveness.If I can do anything to merit it,it is Works .If works then I am still under the old covenant and Doomed.

I am and always will be eternaly thankfull for what Christ has done for me.But I wont deminish what he did by pretending I can do anything to merit it.

 

[rugerfann]

I just wanted you to know it was me who reported this post because of this remark. It may be time for you to take a break man.

?

 

[SumTinWong]

?

Telling someone they don't seem to know what Spiritual Life is" is blatantly rude, and obnoxious. Not too mention without any merit.

You do not agree with him, that is fine, but if agreement constitues anything, you are going to be hard pressed to find anyone here in agreement with you that we don't have to ask for forgiveness from God.

The Bible backs up what we are saying to you...

 

[Qoheleth]

So you then agree that Mary and Joseph were under the old covenant then, and that would be your response to the question of whether they were baptized or not?

Baptism is necessary but not ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross was saved (apparently or possibly without baptism), as were all true believers in the Old Testament era. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power or the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God).

Still, baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has his precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere "ritual" or "symbol," but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.

It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare." (LCMS web-site)

 

[Archangel]

Then isnt baptism a work that Jesus commanded? Why would our Lord command a work if it serves no purpose in our salvation. Is there no grace associated with baptism, according to you?

Did you not read everything I wrote earlier?

I said that Jesus has commanded us to do a lot of things...to encourage, to forgive, to admonish, to love, to take communion...do these things get us saved? No! These are all fruits that we are in fellowship with Jesus. Baptisim is a response of obedience to Jesus as well as a symbol. It does serve a purpose in our faith.

You may argue that if baptisim is only a symbol and that the spiritual reality of salvation through faith in Christ is what matters most, then why bother with the symbol?

Well, we do it because Jesus asked us to. Moreover, even human symbols can be of great significance. When a person is married the ring symbolises the union. Putting on a ring wont make a person married. At the same time, few would toss the ring away and say to their husband/wife "I dont need this anymore, I have the real thing!"

If you are a Christian you have accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour...it would be a contridiction to say im not getting baptised...Jesus asked us too!

[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

Acts 2:38-39 -- Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children [/font]

1 Peter 3:20b-21-- ... and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

In Acts 2...just like in the rest of Acts baptisim comes after repentance...it is the symbol of our faith in jesus. This verse is not saying that we must get baptised to be saved...rather it is Peter saying we should do this along with our repentance. Repentance is the spiritual death to our old life...baptisim...the physical.

In 1 Peter, Peter is saying that it is repentance that saves us not the baptisim. It is waht baptisim represents that saves us. The symbol of baptisim and the reality are closely related, and in fact the symbol is also used to refer to the reality [see Rom 6:2-4 for a similar passage.] The act of baptisim is a commitment on the part of the believer in all good conscience to make sure that waht baptisim symbolises becomes a reality in the believers life.

 

[SumTinWong]

Baptism is necessary but not ABSOLUTELY necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross was saved (apparently or possibly without baptism), as were all true believers in the Old Testament era. Mark 16:16 implies that it is not the absence of baptism that condemns a person but the absence of faith, and there are clearly other ways of coming to faith by the power or the Holy Spirit (reading or hearing the Word of God).

I wouldn't argue with on any point made here, with the exception being baptism being necessary for salvation. But I do believe that it should be done, because it was a command, from God.

Still, baptism dare not be despised or willfully neglected, since it is explicitly commanded by God and has his precious promises attached to it. It is not a mere "ritual" or "symbol," but a powerful means of grace by which God grants faith and the forgiveness of sins.

I agree and disagree, but that is okay. I agree that it should not be despised, but obviously we part at the belief that it is more than a symbol.

It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare." (LCMS web-site)

Not being sarcastic, thank you for posting that. We won't agree, but at least I know where you stand.

So you think then that Mary even though she was alive before (obviously) Jesus was born and after He returned to heaven and was around for the beginning of baptism by Christians, that she didn't necessarily have to be baptized to be saved, right? If so why not, when everyone else presumably did?

 

[rugerfann]

Telling someone they don't seem to know what Spiritual Life is" is blatantly rude, and obnoxious. Not too mention without any merit.

Not realy.He implied i was talking about physical life,so a correction is due.

You do not agree with him, that is fine, but if agreement constitues anything, you are going to be hard pressed to find anyone here in agreement with you that we don't have to ask for forgiveness from God.

The Bible backs up what we are saying to you...

Asking is works.Either he has forgiven you or he hasn't.One can not ask for something that has already been done.

 

[SumTinWong]

Asking is works.Either he has forgiven you or he hasn't.One can not ask for something that has already been done.

Did you or have you at anytime asked God to forgive you for your sins?

Do you ever thank God for the things He has done for you? Why bother He knows you are thankful right?

Do you ever sing songs of praise and worship to God? Why bother, He knows you mean it right?

Did Jesus lie to us when He said for us to ask God to forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors?

Do you pray? Why bother, He knows what you need before you ask it...

by your defintion there is nothing you can do that is not a "work". What do you do in church servics? Wait, going to church would be a work wouldn't it?