Forgiveness

[MorkandMindy]

Is there a definitive Christian teaching on forgiveness?

Do Christians and Christian countries practice forgiveness?

Is it essential?


Would you like to change your own practice of forgiveness?

In what way should the nation change it's practice of forgiveness?

Should the churches be teaching in a different or more forceful way?

How do you think forgiveness is practised Worldwide?

 

[Purge187]

Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Forgive everyone, forgive daily. That's a universal principle in God's eyes.

 

[exitstageright]

Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Forgive everyone, forgive daily. That's a universal principle in God's eyes.

One Sunday morning,my pastor gave a sermon on forgiveness. My Pastor used the same verse about Peter. It is ironic that 70 times 7 is 490. Well,after the sermon,I went to Oakland,Ca to see my favorite football team,the 49ers,play the Oakland Raiders.

For those of you who are not football fans,there is a huge rivalry between the San Francisco 49ers and the Oakland Raiders. Most Raider fans hate the 49ers and 49ers fans with a great passion.
Well,I was sitting among thousands of Raider fans that Sunday afternoon.After hearing what those Raider fans were saying about the 49ers,and the 49ers' fans,believe me,I had to do a whole lot of forgiving that Sunday!
Of course it would not be right to go to church on a Sunday morning,and pick a fight with a Raider fan on that same Sunday afternoon.

 

[miss-a]

Definative teaching: Forgiveness is giving up your right to revenge. You may not feel warm and cozy toward the person but you don't demand or expect them to pay for the damage done. Ideally you reach, eventually a point where you pray for that person to be blessed, understanding that they "know not what they do," that hurting people hurt people and therefore they need Jesus, so you pray for them. Forgiveness is not a feelling but a choice.

Who practices it: Not necessarily Christian countries or groups of any kind.. It is an individual decision.

Yes, it is essential to well being as wall as to fellowship with God. Holding onto unforiveness will adversely effect one's physical, emotional, and spiritual health.

Personally, I'm good with the definition above. I think it is the best way I've heard it taught and churches who don't teach it that way may be missing the mark.

As for countries and the world, I've not really thought about it, but I don't think true forgiveness is very popular in the world today.

 

[iambren]

The best is to deal with an offense as quickly as you are able to. The scriptural admonition is to go face to face,if unsuccessful take a few people with you to clear it up, if still unsuccessful it's brought to the whole church.

Of course this is another truly spiritual discipline rarely used to our detriment.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Definitive teaching: Forgiveness is giving up your right to revenge.

...

I really like that definition - I think you hit the nail on the head.

...
Of course this is another truly spiritual discipline rarely used, to our detriment.

It's an essential part of Christianity yet it is more unusual inside Christianity than outside it.

 

[MorkandMindy]

...
As for countries and the world, I've not really thought about it, but I don't think true forgiveness is very popular in the world today.

One example would be the response of the Vietnamese to the horrendous bombing they have all suffered, about 4 million killed and a lot of permanent injuries. But I have never heard of any retribution taken by anyone, in fact Americans who were involved in the war go back and visit and the Vietnamese aren't even unfriendly.

 

[Doctor Strangelove]

...It's an essential part of Christianity yet it is more unusual inside Christianity than outside it.

I don't know about that. Avant garde people are always making fun of Christianity, sometimes to the point of desecrating Christian symbols. They pretend they are brave in doing so but they know no Christian will retaliate. The same people would be afraid to say the slightest whisper against another religion, because they know practitioners of this other religion would kill them. Nevertheless, all we hear is that this other religion is a religion of peace while Christianity is violent, hateful, intolerant, the inventor of war and slavery, no doubt.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Thank you for your response.

I looked up 'Avant garde' and it seems to mean 'pushing the boundaries of art', and that seems in this instance to mean 'provoking searching debate' though I really don't personally think Mideo was likely to produce any beneficial soul-searching through the items mentioned in an article, that were the cause of the most fervent objections.


Apparently Mideo Cruz was bombarded with death threats and hate mail for his exhibition of desecrated Christian symbols.


I agree that there is a section of another religion would have taken an even more extreme stance, however I was not intending to discuss the worst behaviour but the best.


We really can learn good things from others but only by talking about the good things they do and even more importantly - why they do them.

When it comes to forgiveness I look to the Vietnamese and their forgiveness of the violence in the Vietnam war.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Another example of forgiveness is the statement attributed to Jesus at the crucifixion of 'forgive them father, they know not what they are doing'.


Attacking the character of Jesus as recorded in the canonical gospels is something I don't think any sensible person would do. He is essentially universally respected and admired throughout other religions. Ajahn Brahm for example, a Buddhist, demanded the right to bow to the crucifix or statue of Jesus (I can't recall which) at a Cathedral he spoke at on the basis of the good things Jesus represents, just as he bows before a Buddha statue for exactly the same reason.


So why isn't the Whole world Christian? That's your job; fix Christianity and bring in the World. The 'fix Christianity' bit could be interesting.

 

[miss-a]

Actually, true Christianity is not broken. People, individuals, are. And anyone who truly wants to be "fixed" will be. But, sadly, not everyone does. Even people who say they want to be "fixed," often don't really desire it. What they are often saying, even though they don't realize it, is "I want to be fixed if I don't have to do anything I don't want to in order to get there,if I can be in control of it and don't have to trust God, go ahead and fix me, if I can be just the same as I am now." And that's just not the way it works.

It's been going on since Jesus' day (and before) when the rich young ruler appoached Jesus asking if there was anything else he needed to do in order to inherit eternal life. Jesus told him what he needed to do and "he went away sad." He'd been asked to detach from his wealth. It was not that detaching from wealth sends us to heaven or makes us whole here, it's that in his particular case wealth was the thing standing between him and trusting Jesus, the one who could "fix" him. His faith was in weath. He wanted wealth to fix him. And "you cannot serve two masters." Jesus does not say "don't serve two masters." He says we are not able to. If we will not do what Jesus says we need to to be fixed, we won't get fixed. And many folks, claiming Christ or not, will not do what he says.

So Jesus is the only One who can fix it, and He won't step in and make up our minds for us. His kindness brings repentence, but sadly, many ignore His kindness or are distracted from it or decieved about it.

 

[dayhiker]

My observation is that most Christians have forgiven those that offend them.
I didn't understand until I started befriending a lot of people who went to church but left. They have forgiven people, but what they weren't able to deal with was the pain and hurt others caused them.

Its like when Jesus said turn the other cheek. If we keep getting hit each time you turn the other cheek we will start to flinch. Flink enough times and we start to have a post traumatic stress disorder. One of my best friends father never understood him. C went to his father over and over forging his father as he was taught. But his father did hurtful things to him for 60+ years till he died 4 yrs ago! I sense no bitterness towards his father when we talk about it. But his voice is full of pain and hurt when he talks about his father. Also his has behaviours consistent with PTSD that he has no success in dealing with. The church has not even diagnosed his problem and I barely understand it. And I have no clue how to help him other than being there for him, being his friend.

This is what I run into time after time with people who have left the church. They still love Jesus .. but had to get away from the guilt of dealing with their pain, they might be drinking quitea bit to numb the pain. Or it was the church that really hurt them. One couple I know was instrumental in starting two churches. They then brought in pastors who both became very authoritative hurting so many people that this couple wouldn't go to church any more. They can't get people to trust them, bring them into the church and then see pastors hurt the people one more time.

I know a lot of pastors aren't that way, I've been had some great pastors in my life.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

In Matthew 6:14 Jesus says "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."


Here is the thing about forgiveness. God wants us to forgive people that hurt us because if we don't it hurts us!

See when someone has something against someone, everytime they think of that person, they get upset and it causes them to be angry or bitter, while the person that caused it may not even know that the other person is upset. They are going on about their lives unaffected, while the ones that do not forgive are hurting and re-hurting themselves with thoughts of what happened and how upset they are and why they are. So it does no earthly good to hold a grudge against someone.

Now forgiving someone does not mean that you have to act like nothing ever happened. You may forgive someone, but not want to be as close to them for fear of the same thing happening again. Just because YOU forgive them, doesn't mean they even think they NEED to be forgiven so sometimes we still have to distance ourselves in order to protect ourselves but if we truly have forgiven them and they aren't repentant, we will at least want to pray for them.

So not forgiving someone only hurts us. The other person may not know or care if you are unforgiving toward them.

 

[dayhiker]

Yes, Michelle,
The people I've been meeting know all that. Yet they still have hurt and pains from what others did to them. So they have forgiven them. But the hurt and pain is still there. The son had to go to the funeral of his father, but the hurt he was feeling wasn't fun.

My question is how do we help someone deal with those hurts that are still there after they have forgiven.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

well IDK for sure, but I would let them talk about it and validate their feelings so as not to make them feel guilty for feeling hurt. And then try to encourage them to lay all those feelings at the feet of Jesus in prayer. IMO the only way to get over it (and some things we just cannot "get over") or thru it is by asking Jesus to help us because we cannot do it on our own. Jesus went thru alot to die on the cross for us, He knows! So when they want to talk about it, I would let them. When they don't I would pray for them and encourage them to talk to God about it because He really does understand. And also encourage them to try to look at ways that they might be able to use their pain to help someone else.
Sometimes just having someone that says "I can't understand because I haven't been thru what you've been thru, but I can certainly see that it really affected you and I'm here for you if you need me" can be all they need to get thru another day.

 

[dayhiker]

Well, I and other guys in our men's group have done the part about listening and being there for him. Perhaps we haven't seperate the forgiveness and the hurt we enough so that he sees them as two things well enough so that he is praying more effectively.

 

[memoriesbymichelle]

maybe he needs to know that it's OK that he can't forget the pain just yet, that God understands more than anyone.
People are more inclined to relax and change when they know they won't be judged if they can't do it perfectly.

 

[dayhiker]

maybe ... I just know I feel inadequate to help him. So I leave it in God's hands.

 

[Yahu]

I really like that definition - I think you hit the nail on the head.

I would have to disagree. You can give up on personal revenge yet can nail the offense on the cross and ask that He provide vengeance for the offense. Scripture says 'Vengeance is Mine' says the Lord.

Forgiveness comes once someone repents and ask to be forgiven. That is a separate issue. Yah (God) does not forgive the unrepentant. Are we holier then Him? Does He require us to do something that even He does not do?

I have dealt with a lot of rape counseling. Those told to just forgive their rapists can't and won't do it. Then they feel guilty that they haven't. My counseling is to give up the desire for personal vengeance, repent of it, but turn it over for Yah to deal with. He is much harsher on that type of error than anything the victim could dish out.

My own fiance was the victim of gang rape. Only 1 of her attackers asked for her forgiveness at their trail. She refused to even forgive him at the time. I convinced her she had to forgive if he was repentant because carrying unforgiveness would poison our relationship if she couldn't forgive me when I repented of an offense. She repented of unforgiveness which is refusing to forgive the repentant.

She wrote him in prison and gave him her forgiveness. She wrote the others that she had turned their offense over to Yah to provide His wrath and vengeance to fall on them for their offense BUT if they repented and asked for her forgiveness, she would grant it. Five of the other gang rapists begged her to stop praying for Yah's wrath and vengeance from falling upon them, got saved and begged her forgiveness.

Rapists are tormented in prison by other inmates. She wrote back forgiving them. They got saved as a result of her actions. One of those was later being raped in prison and asked God to help him forgive his attacker as she had forgiven him. His attacked claimed women never forgive rape. He showed them her letter and from that time on, was not raped in prison. The 6 of them (one was already saved) started a prison ministry.

Two others mocked her, her letters, Yah and Yah's vengeance in prison. They were strong enough to defend themselves in prison from attackers. They were the two that had initiated the rape. When other inmates heard them, they were beaten and raped to death with barbells in the prison yard while their attackers claimed rapist don't mock Yah's vengeance!

The witness in the prison for other inmates had a huge impact on the ministry the other 6 had started. The 6 of them had repented and been forgiven while the other 2 had refused to repented and died brutally.

Them my fiance's pain over her rape turned to joy that 5 people got saved as a result of her suffering. She was totally emotional restored.

 

[Yahu]

Definative teaching: Forgiveness is giving up your right to revenge. You may not feel warm and cozy toward the person but you don't demand or expect them to pay for the damage done. Ideally you reach, eventually a point where you pray for that person to be blessed, understanding that they "know not what they do," that hurting people hurt people and therefore they need Jesus, so you pray for them. Forgiveness is not a feelling but a choice.

Who practices it: Not necessarily Christian countries or groups of any kind.. It is an individual decision.

Yes, it is essential to well being as wall as to fellowship with God. Holding onto unforiveness will adversely effect one's physical, emotional, and spiritual health.

Personally, I'm good with the definition above. I think it is the best way I've heard it taught and churches who don't teach it that way may be missing the mark.

As for countries and the world, I've not really thought about it, but I don't think true forgiveness is very popular in the world today.

IMO you are missing the mark. You forgive those that repent. I agree that you don't hold onto personal vengeance but can turn it over to Yah to provide the require vengeance to drive the individual to repentance.

You don't forgive the unrepentant. It must be asked for. To be guilty of unforgiveness you must refuse to forgive when asked. You must have a willingness to forgive if it is asked for.

A willingness to forgive is the key IMO.