forgiveness without repentance

[drich0150]

I ask: is there forgiveness without repentance? is there a biblical example?
If god doesn't for give without repentance should I? is there a biblical example of that?


I've asked this question several times to various people and never got the same answer twice, that is if i even got an answer. what do you all think?

 

[cyberlizard]

no - repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand

in the tanakh - for forgiveness there were two routes depending upon who you sinned against. If you sinned against God (not deliberate), then it was sacrifice (sin offering) and repentance (turning around) followed by ritual immersion (baptism).

if you sinned against your fellow man, you asked the other person for forgiveness. See Jesus teaching on this subject.

if someone has sinned against you - it is your duty to forgive them (regardless)


Steve

p.s. unless you forgive, you will not be forgiven

 

[Chaplain David]

I ask: is there forgiveness without repentance? is there a biblical example?
If god doesn't for give without repentance should I? is there a biblical example of that?

I've asked this question several times to various people and never got the same answer twice, that is if i even got an answer. what do you all think?

What do you think? What are your stances on forgiveness without repentence? You must have some beliefs or thoughts on this already? I'll give input later. Just want to know what your beliefs are. God bless.

 

[drich0150]

I didn't ask a baited question. I know what the popular belief is. and I was aligned with that way of thinking. but now the more I read, the less I know. so to be brief, I don't know what to think.

That's why I want to know if there is a relevant "new Covent" answer to my original questions. I want to see chapter and verse.. "god forgiving someone without repentance, or the command to forgive without repentance." Again I've heard and know of most christian philosophies on the subject..

Off the cross, I'm not aware of anyone sinning against god, the new church or people in general without being confronted with there sin, and either repent and been forgiven. or they were confronted, ignored the warning, and were Condemded or disasscoiated fellowship with... Is this forgiveness?

I'm not discounting what jesus did on the cross, but who except god would know the condition of a mans heart.
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Or another way of looking at this is If they infact did know what there were doing, would the same forgiveness be there?? Is there a scriptural precedent?

 

[JTLauder]

Repentance and forgiveness go together, but one is not necessarily dependent on another.

2 parties: the wrong-doer and the person wronged.
And 2 actions are required for each: the giving and the receiving.

The wrong-doer can but not necessarily repent to the person wronged, and the wronged can choose to receive that repentance (by giving forgiveness in return) or not (by withholding forgiveness).

At the moment I don't have time to go into the context of the "Forgive or you won't be forgiven" verse, so I can't say if there's anything there that says repentance precedes it. If there is no repentance condition, then it would suggest that we are expected to offer forgiveness regardless if the wrong-doer repents. The verse is a statement of our actions of not withholding forgiveness.

But even if the wronged gives forgiveness, it does not take hold if the wrong-doer chooses to not receive it, which would require a repentant heart to begin with.

Now when it comes to forgiveness from God, is repentance required? That follows the same double-sided logic. Jesus dying on the cross and shedding his blood grants everyone forgiveness for all sins: past, present, and future. If repentance was first required, Jesus' blood of forgiveness would not apply to future sins and Jesus would have to shed blood every time someone comes up for repentance.

But even if Jesus' blood of forgiveness has been given for all eternity and exists, that forgiveness isn't ours unless we receive it. And typically, no one would accept a pardon of forgiveness unless they admit they have sinned.

I guess it can be summed up like this:
Repentance is not required for you to offer forgiveness.
But repentance is required for you to accept forgiveness.

 

[Chaplain David]

I didn't ask a baited question. I know what the popular belief is. and I was aligned with that way of thinking. but now the more I read, the less I know. so to be brief, I don't know what to think.

That's why I want to know if there is a relevant "new Covent" answer to my original questions. I want to see chapter and verse.. "god forgiving someone without repentance, or the command to forgive without repentance." Again I've heard and know of most christian phyosphies on the subject..

Off the cross, I'm not aware of anyone sinning against god, the new church or people in general without being confronted with there sin, and either repent and been forgiven. or they were confronted, ignored the warning, and were Condemded or disasscoiated fellowship with... Is this forgiveness?

I'm not discounting what jesus did on the cross, but who except god would know the condition of a mans heart.
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Or another way of looking at this is If they infact did know what there were doing, would the same forgiveness be there?? Is there a scriptural precedent?

God forgiving without repentance. Interesting. What I've been writing to share here mostly supports the necessity of repenting to obtain forgiveness.

You realize, that besides your question there are two separate issues.

One is God forgiving us. The other is our forgiveness of each other. I will post some scripture supporting these acts and look for what you are describing a little later.

God bless you.

 

[Chaplain David]

Let me start by writing the following about repentance and forgiveness with some appropriate scripture references.

​

1. Repentance is necessary for God to forgive us. ​

(Acts 2:38) Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. ​

(Acts 3:19) Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,​

2. Forgiveness will not happen until these take place. If we do not repent we will perish ​

(Luke 13:1-5) Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them — do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." ​

3. And repentance isn't just for unbelievers. Repentance is an activity for believers which we continually practice as we fall into sin: "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent" ​

(Revelation 3:19) Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. ​

Luke 17:3-4 3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him.​

2 Corinthians 7:9-10 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us.​

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. ​

Revelation 2:5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.​

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

4. Does this help with your questions about repentance or do you only want examples of forgiveness without repentance?

There are some isolated examples which I believe are acts of grace where there is not apparent repentance but my heart tells me that secretly, there was repentance involved here as well although it is not written. I am speaking about the story of what many call "The woman at the well." It is written in John 8:3-11:

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst,
4 they say unto him, Teacher, this woman hath been taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her?
6 And this they said, trying him, that they might have (whereof) to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.
7 But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.
9 And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, (even) unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst.
10 And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee?
11 And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more .)

Another example is that of one of the criminals that was crucified beside Jesus who recognized Jesus was the son of God. One place it is written about is Luke 23:42-43:

"And he (the criminal) said, Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom. And he Jesus) said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in Paradise."



​

 

[drich0150]

Repentance and forgiveness go together, but one is not necessarily dependent on another.

2 parties: the wrong-doer and the person wronged.
And 2 actions are required for each: the giving and the receiving.

The wrong-doer can but not necessarily repent to the person wronged, and the wronged can choose to receive that repentance (by giving forgiveness in return) or not (by withholding forgiveness).

At the moment I don't have time to go into the context of the "Forgive or you won't be forgiven" verse, so I can't say if there's anything there that says repentance precedes it. If there is no repentance condition, then it would suggest that we are expected to offer forgiveness regardless if the wrong-doer repents. The verse is a statement of our actions of not withholding forgiveness.

But even if the wronged gives forgiveness, it does not take hold if the wrong-doer chooses to not receive it, which would require a repentant heart to begin with.

Now when it comes to forgiveness from God, is repentance required? That follows the same double-sided logic. Jesus dying on the cross and shedding his blood grants everyone forgiveness for all sins: past, present, and future. If repentance was first required, Jesus' blood of forgiveness would not apply to future sins and Jesus would have to shed blood every time someone comes up for repentance.

But even if Jesus' blood of forgiveness has been given for all eternity and exists, that forgiveness isn't ours unless we receive it. And typically, no one would accept a pardon of forgiveness unless they admit they have sinned.

I guess it can be summed up like this:
Repentance is not required for you to offer forgiveness.
But repentance is required for you to accept forgiveness.

This is a well worded and thought out post, but one can offer in response.. God doesn't offer universal forgiveness, as pop christianity would have us belive. He offers redemption.. Redemption being conditional (Jesus) and repentance.. that leads to forgiveness.
Then by that example, are we allowed to place conditions to personal forgiveness.

Example: Lets say you have a subscription to the local paper and every morning you go to get the paper at the same time. until one day you get a new neighbor who for what ever the reason determines he needs the paper more than you.. and he steals it. not just one day but everyday.. let's say you don't cancel your subscription and he continues to steal your paper for years.. should your forgiveness automatic??? Everyday for years??? or can you put conditions on your forgiveness like: STOP STEALING YOUR PAPER... and i'll drop your transgressions on me, and we can start out fresh.
Or should you wake up even earlier go by starbucks and get him a coffee to go with your paper everyday.

I understand this is the "perfect example" that christ set before us, but wasn't the whole point of the "full fillment of the law" to show us there was no way we would ever be able to completely obey it. thereby rendering our efforts fruitless. driving us to the need of a savior? causing most of us to find redemption thru repentance??

So again I ask for a "Thou Shalt forgive with out repentance" or at least an example where the lord has shown forgiveness with out repentance.

 

[drich0150]

I think both of your examples do show Transgression without a "formal repentance" or what we would recognize as traditional redemption..
But my heart tells me our lord knew there hearts and who/what they were... thats why he told her to go and sin no more...
Plus you know as they dragged her thru the streets to be stoned, she was screaming for forgiveness, and begging for her life.

as far as the thief. He much like us, knew he was a sinner, and needed a savior. He turned to jesus. He didn't recite the sinners prayer nor was he baptised, but again he did meet the minimum requirements for redemption. He knew what he was and turned to Jesus for salvation.

As far as the rest of your scriptural references, they plus a few others are what are fueling my thoughts towards conditional forgiveness.

 

[Chaplain David]

I think both of your examples do show Transgression without a "formal repentance" or what we would recognize as traditional redemption..
But my heart tells me our lord knew there hearts and who/what they were... thats why he told her to go and sin no more...
Plus you know as they dragged her thru the streets to be stoned, she was screaming for forgiveness, and begging for her life.

as far as the thief. He much like us, knew he was a sinner, and needed a savior. He turned to jesus. He didn't recite the sinners prayer nor was he baptised, but again he did meet the minimum requirements for redemption. He knew what he was and turned to Jesus for salvation.

As far as the rest of your scriptural references, they plus a few others are what are fueling my thoughts towards conditional forgiveness.

A question that popped into my mind was where do you stand regarding the Holy Bible being the written word of God? You asked for scripture references so you must believe in at least some of it. Personally I believe it to be God inspired and without error. How about you?

 

[drich0150]

I belive the same. or I would not have asked for scripture to back my questions.. With that said, I belive that mans interpretation is often the source of what may appear as scriptural contradiction.. What I'm questioning isn't scripture,, but the Idea that we must openly forgive with out repentance from the other party... I've tried to remain neutral in what I think while questioning both sides.. I'm not trying to do anything except answer a simple question... Does God say we are to forgive with out a repentant party??? if he remains silent then, is there president to show where he has forgiven without repentance?

My intentions are not to overturn scripture, but maybe shine some light on some "modern pop Christianity" and answer a few other questions along the way.
test everything and hold on to what is good. these were some of the final words paul ended his first letter to the Thessalonian church.. He was speaking directly about prophecies, but this works well with non scriptural church beliefs, and traditions as well. Not all are bad, nor are they all beneficial. I'm trying to weed thru some of the more toxic ones..
Forgiveness and repentance are corner stones of our faith. if we have a perverse view of god's ultimate gift then where are we really? I've seen and heard advise here and outside of the internet, telling women, wives and mothers to forgive there abusive drunk husbands..

I've seen well meaning preachers, elders, and the like send families back into extremely violent situations with very unstable men.. and sadly I know of a few cases where they didn't come back. If we as brothers in the faith are willing to quote the "goodwife" sermon and preach blind forgiveness then should we even be concerned that so far no one has been able to give chapter and verse or at least a biblical example of this princable??
[SIZE=+0] When do we stand up and finally take responsibility for what we preach? at our judgment? I for one will not wait for the next "Martin Luther" to question established "tradition" I know my gifts are few, but I will take my "one talent" and do my best to double it, even if I fall short no one can say I buried it.[/SIZE]


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