Forgiveness is one sided. Why does it have to be accepted.

[Justsomedude]

Suppose you do something wrong to me and I forgive you. You can choose not accept my forgiveness but it has no consequence. You are still forgiven. My ability to forgive you of your sins against me is not in anyway whatsoever contingent upon you.

So why would G-d require belief in Jesus and acceptance to forgive sins? Why is that necessary for G-d when it is not necessary for humans?

 

[HisHomeMaker]

I believe that God loves you, supports you and forgive you even if you do not acknowledge Him. Some of the most Christian-like people I can think of don't declare themselves to be Christians at all. That said, people like me need God. I need to know Jesus and to follow his way because I am a sinner.

You are loved.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I have never known a human to forgive someone who thought they didn't exist? Can you really forgive someone who does not think that they have done you any harm? What then is there to forgive? If you come up to someone and say to them "I forgive you" and they say "I don't need to be forgiven because I haven't done anything wrong", would you still think that you have forgiven them?

 

[ebia]

Forgiveness can be reduced to a one-sided thing, but reconciliation is a two sided thing, and that's what is required.

 

[Justsomedude]

I have never known a human to forgive someone who thought they didn't exist? Can you really forgive someone who does not think that they have done you any harm? What then is there to forgive? If you come up to someone and say to them "I forgive you" and they say "I don't need to be forgiven because I haven't done anything wrong", would you still think that you have forgiven them?

I am having difficulty making sense out of this. It reads to me like you are assuming I am an atheist. If this is the case, I request that you check my icon and then post again.

There is a man who, IMO, cheated me out of a good sum of money. This man does not believe he has done me any wrong at all and has cheated me out of nothing. For my own reasons, I have chosen to forgive him. If I were to inform him that he's been forgiven, I image that he'd reply to me saying, "I don't need to be forgiven because I haven't done anything wrong," just as you wrote in your post. But he is. I belive that he owed me a debt but I have chosen to cancel it rather than make him pay. That is forgiveness. That he denies that he has done wrong does not stop me from forgiving him.

 

[Justsomedude]

Forgiveness can be reduced to a one-sided thing, but reconciliation is a two sided thing, and that's what is required.

That's a very good answer. I never thought of that before.

 

[HisHomeMaker]

Forgiveness can be reduced to a one-sided thing, but reconciliation is a two sided thing, and that's what is required.

I really like this. I am in a relationship with Christ for the purpose of reconciliation with God.

If I were to inform him that he's been forgiven, I image that he'd reply to me saying, "I don't need to be forgiven because I haven't done anything wrong,"

Perhaps you telling him he is forgiven will resonate in him. Perhaps he will rethink the situation and see your perspective... one day. Of course you would need to say your words and behave towards him with authentic forgiveness from that time on, or he may see you as just being a facetious jab.

 

[Justsomedude]

I really like this. I am in a relationship with Christ for the purpose of reconciliation with God.





Perhaps you telling him he is forgiven will resonate in him. Perhaps he will rethink the situation and see your perspective... one day. Of course you would need to say your words and behave towards him with authentic forgiveness from that time on, or he may see you as just being a facetious jab.

Actually, G-d willing, I will never see the person again. I try not to ever even think about the guy because I hate allowing him space in my head without collecting rent for it. I only brought it up because it was a direct example of a situation that grasping the after wind described.

 

[drich0150]

Suppose you do something wrong to me and I forgive you. You can choose not accept my forgiveness but it has no consequence. You are still forgiven. My ability to forgive you of your sins against me is not in anyway whatsoever contingent upon you.

So why would G-d require belief in Jesus and acceptance to forgive sins? Why is that necessary for G-d when it is not necessary for humans?

Do you know the purpose of the forgiveness of sins?

It is so that one may establish a relationship with God. This relationship is the cornerstone or reason for salvation and a eternity in Heaven.

So when we apply this to your analogy, and you forgive me For the benefit of a personal relationship, but i do not accept this forgiveness then do we in fact have a relationship? If "we" did not have a relationship would you allow me to take from you? Or would you do stuff for me, if I did not acknowledge your sacrifice, forgiveness or very existence?

If you would then know that more closely aligns itself with the definition of codependency, and not a proper personal relationship.

 

[ForceofTime]

Actually, G-d willing, I will never see the person again. I try not to ever even think about the guy because I hate allowing him space in my head without collecting rent for it. I only brought it up because it was a direct example of a situation that grasping the after wind described.

And you say you have forgiven him?

 

[Justsomedude]

And you say you have forgiven him?

Forgiving someone means that I have cancelled their debt to me. I am not asking the guy to pay anything back. But there is nothing about that that necessitates that I actually have any more contact with him.

As someone else has pointed out, the situation is not identical to the our alleged relationship with the Christian god as the Christian god allegedly wants a relationship with us while I have no desire for a relationship with this guy.

But this brings up another question. We've already established that forgiveness is one-sided. Since Jesus died for all peoples' sins, we are all forgiven and so no one has to worry about going to Hell. But belief is required for a relationship and a relationship is required to go to heaven. Since not everyone has a relationship with Jesus and so not everyone is going to Heaven, but everyone is forgiven and so no one is going to Hell, what happens to the people that don't believe in Jesus when they die?

 

[ForceofTime]

Forgiving someone means that I have cancelled their debt to me. I am not asking the guy to pay anything back. But there is nothing about that that necessitates that I actually have any more contact with him.

You may need to clarify, since 'forgive' is defined as follows:
forgive   /fərˈgɪv/ Show Spelled [fer-giv] Show IPA verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.
–verb (used with object) 1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.

2.to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).

3.to grant pardon to (a person).

4.to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.

5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on aloan.


–verb (used without object) 6.to pardon an offense or an offender.

I consider the fourth to be most applicable here.

As someone else has pointed out, the situation is not identical to the our alleged relationship with the Christian god as the Christian god allegedly wants a relationship with us while I have no desire for a relationship with this guy.

'Allegedly'? To not desire a relationship is one thing, but to hold resentment is another, is it not?

But this brings up another question. We've already established that forgiveness is one-sided. Since Jesus died for all peoples' sins, we are all forgiven and so no one has to worry about going to Hell. But belief is required for a relationship and a relationship is required to go to heaven. Since not everyone has a relationship with Jesus and so not everyone is going to Heaven, but everyone is forgiven and so no one is going to Hell, what happens to the people that don't believe in Jesus when they die?

So, forgiveness of Jesus+everyone=no hell;
forgiveness of Jesus+individual choice to believe+relationship=to heaven;
forgiveness of Jesus+individual choice to disbelieve=no hell and no heaven.

Yes, this is quite a dilemma...

 

[Justsomedude]

You may need to clarify, since 'forgive' is defined as follows:
forgive   /fərˈgɪv/ Show Spelled [fer-giv] Show IPA verb, -gave, -giv·en, -giv·ing.
–verb (used with object) 1.to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.

2.to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).

3.to grant pardon to (a person).

4.to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies.

5.to cancel an indebtedness or liability of: to forgive the interest owed on aloan.


–verb (used without object) 6.to pardon an offense or an offender.

I consider the fourth to be most applicable here.

'Allegedly'? To not desire a relationship is one thing, but to hold resentment is another, is it not?

Actually, all definitions apply.

I don't resent the guy. Resentment requires attention which I am unwilling to give to this man.

In a nutshell, things reached a point that collecting the debt would cost more more than the debt itself and so I finally just cut my losses and moved on with life.

I don't really know what could be expected of me beyond that. Healthy relationships are give and take. My relationship with him in the past consisted entirely of me giving and him taking and I have no reason to think he'd be any different at any time in the future.

So I consider permanently barring him from my life the most healthy thing for me.

So, forgiveness of Jesus+everyone=no hell;
forgiveness of Jesus+individual choice to believe+relationship=to heaven;
forgiveness of Jesus+individual choice to disbelieve=no hell and no heaven.

Yes, this is quite a dilemma...

I was being facetious in an attempt to demonstrate that the doctrine of Hell is inconsisent with the rest of Christian theology.

 

[ForceofTime]

Actually, all definitions apply.

I don't resent the guy. Resentment requires attention which I am unwilling to give to this man.

I see. I'm glad it works for you.

I was being facetious in an attempt to demonstrate that the doctrine of Hell is inconsisent with the rest of Christian theology.

Well, if only you could try that in General Theology, I'm sure they would like to state a case about your interpretation of christian theology.

Thanks for the reply's and I wish you all the best.

 

[Harry3142]

Suppose you do something wrong to me and I forgive you. You can choose not accept my forgiveness but it has no consequence. You are still forgiven. My ability to forgive you of your sins against me is not in anyway whatsoever contingent upon you.

So why would G-d require belief in Jesus and acceptance to forgive sins? Why is that necessary for G-d when it is not necessary for humans?

What you describe is more akin to condonement than it is forgiveness. For there to be forgiveness there must also be either a repentance on the part of the person being forgiven, or an ignorance on his part of having committed an offense.

 

[solarwave]

But this brings up another question. We've already established that forgiveness is one-sided. Since Jesus died for all peoples' sins, we are all forgiven and so no one has to worry about going to Hell. But belief is required for a relationship and a relationship is required to go to heaven. Since not everyone has a relationship with Jesus and so not everyone is going to Heaven, but everyone is forgiven and so no one is going to Hell, what happens to the people that don't believe in Jesus when they die?

Excellent questions. Not until now have considered justification and salvation to be different things, mostly because I just havn't thought about it fully.

It may be the case that all people are actually forgiven by God. More than that is needed for heaven though, and as ebia said, reconciliation is needed too. So I'm going to say that the sacrifice of Jesus forgives the sins of the world and allows the possibility of coming close to God. We gain salvation by faith, by turning our heart away from evil and towards God and Goodness.

So people who die without knowing Jesus either go to heaven because they had faith but didn't know who it was they were having faith in. Or go to hell (perhaps a kind of purgatory to allow repentance) or go into non-existance.

 

[Justsomedude]

My Conclusion at this time: Forgiveness and reconsiliation are two seperate states. One can be forgiven without being reconciled.

To apply this Christian theology, there are three possible correct Christian stances.

1. Limited Salvation - Jesus died only for the sins of those that would accept his sacrifice. He did not take on the sins of those that would reject him and so they can't be forgiven.

2. Universal Salvation, Limited Reconsilliation - Jesus died for everyone's sins and so everyone is saved from Hell. But only believers go to Heaven. Nonbelievers just die.

3. Universal Salvation and Reconsilliation - Jesus died for everyones sins and everyone will be reconciled. Belief is irrelevent.

All other possibilities are logically inconsistent and so invalid.

 

[solarwave]

All other possibilities are logically inconsistent and so invalid.

Are you going to explain why?

 

[Justsomedude]

Are you going to explain why?

Fair enough.

1. Jesus died for everyone's sins but only believers are saved. - If Jesus died for everyone's sins, then the debt was paid for everyone, including nonbelievers. Nonbelievers can't be forgiven and not forgiven at the same time and so this is position is invalid.

2. Jesus died for only the sins of believers but everyone is saved. - If Jesus only died and paid the price for believers, then the debt goes unpaid for nonbelievers. Again, you can't be forgiven and not forgiven at the same time.

I think that covers the bases but if there is another position that I missed, list it and we'll discuss it.

 

[solarwave]

Fair enough.

1. Jesus died for everyone's sins but only believers are saved. - If Jesus died for everyone's sins, then the debt was paid for everyone, including nonbelievers. Nonbelievers can't be forgiven and not forgiven at the same time and so this is position is invalid.

2. Jesus died for only the sins of believers but everyone is saved. - If Jesus only died and paid the price for believers, then the debt goes unpaid for nonbelievers. Again, you can't be forgiven and not forgiven at the same time.

I think that covers the bases but if there is another position that I missed, list it and we'll discuss it.

Sorry I misread your last post and got confused. So yeah I agree with this I think.