Forget the Sabbath day, it's no longer Holy... (2)

mrasell said:

Do you have 2 witnesses to back up your claim?

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Do you pay an electric bill every month? Do you pay a water bill every month? Maybe you might be hooked up to natural gas. If so you also pay that every month. The acceptance of goods on account is doing business on the sabbath if that meter turns. And that is within your gates. It necessitates other work. This is a violation of the ten commandments. Do you mount your beast and ride to church on the sabbath. This is making your beast work also forbidden by the ten commandments. To say that your vehicle is not a beast of burden is to state a legalism to avoid the intentions of the law (ten commandments). The Jews were very good at it too as mentioned by Jesus.

Now I have presented more than two witnesses. At least two ultitly companies employing more than one person each to deliver the goods and services. Does anybody see you drive your beast to church? How many neighbors and folks at church see you doing this? Does God see this?

mrasell said:

Your argument is not consistent, does the Sabbatismos include or exclude man?

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In Genesis it includes man. The sabbatismos is not a ritual observance, nor is it the sabbath.

mrasell said:

God’s law reflects his character which does not change (Mal. 3:6; James 1:7):

Jn 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Pr 6:23. For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:


Ps 119:142. Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.


Jn 8:12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.


Ro 7:12. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


Le 19:2. Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.


Dt 32:4. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


Lk 18:19. And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.


Ps 19:7. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.


Ps 19:8. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.


1 Jn 3:3. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


Ps 145:17. The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.


Mt 5:48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Ps 111:7-8. The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.


Is 40:28. Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

God’s word does not change (Ps. 89:34); it is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path (Ps. 119:105). It guides the lost soul to the way of righteousness leading to God’s eternal city. Not even the fool need err on the highway of holiness (Isa. 35:8).

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Isa 28:10, 13 shows a progression and change. So does Jer 31:31-34. It states very clearly that something new will happen. This is called change. Jesus witnessed this change by personal testimony in 3 Gospels.

from scratch said:

Here you admit to the changing of the law. There goes your jot an tittle argument.

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from scratch said:

I don't recall cleansing the temple/sancturary being discussed in Hebrews. In fact there is no word or form of the word cleanse or clean in Hebrews.

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Hebrews does speak of cleansing, but it doesn't support the Adventist IJ doctrine:


Sacrificial blood was for cleansing, not for transferring sin or defilement (as in the Adventist sanctuary model). Also, Hebrews 1 says that Jesus had already made purification of sins by the time the book was written (long before 1844):

mrasell said:

Your argument is not consistent, does the Sabbatismos include or exclude man?

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Why didn't you offer any comment concerning acceptance of the Genesis record? Up to this time you have been repeating a claim that the sabbaton originated at creation, and now that has changed by you referring to God's rest as His sabbatismos.

That may indicate progress, but nothing you post is really clear.

Now, it appears that your question of man's inclusion into God's sabbatismos ignores the time-sensitive aspect of His rest that we have entered into.
The Genesis record doesn't show Adam resting with God, and this is a point that you have never acknowledged. Nor have you acknowledged the text of Hebrews 4 that summarizes God's rest (sabbatismos used in 4:9) was a promise referred to as another day that remained to be attained in the future for some of those who already had the sabbath: "a promise remains of entering His rest".

This thread's discussion has already concluded that Hebrews 3-4 uses the provocation of Numbers 14 as its backdrop, and doesn't address the sabbath at all. What you continually miss is where Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 and the narrative shows this as God's rest that remained a promise that those who were given the sabbath didn't have. That is consistent with the Genesis record, wherein there is no record at all of a sabbath that either repeated, followed a weekly cycle, or mankind ever participated in.

Your previous post merely concluded that the Biblical record "is impossible". I picked up on this and observed that Adventism is deeply rooted in rebellion. Now you have posts claiming that you keep the Ten Commandments, which was the covenant from Mount Sinai, and you already know the sabbath requires burnt offerings. We know that you haven't kept a sabbath day holy in over 1900 years, and you don't even acknowledge the Levitical priesthood requisite for the people that were charged with the sabbath. We were never given the sabbath, nor were we ever given the means to keep it holy as the Mosaic covenant law mandated. By the way, that's the same covenant from Mount Sinai (the Ten Commandments) that Galatians 4:21-31 charges that we should cast off, for those retained in it will not share in the Heir's inheritance (read: eternal life).

Don't look at your computer with that same blank look on your face anymore. All of these points have been shown to you, long detailed posts have been written by people who actually care about you and the mutated rendition of the Gospel you've been handed, and would like to set you on the same path that God designed in the first place. Is rebellion and bearing false witness the only thing you know, having a conscience seared from such a long history of listening to Ellen White's rebellion? Would you like me to fetch the quote from her that shows her conclusion that the application of the Bible is a great mistake if it contradicts her "special points"? Wouldn't you like to know you have eternal life, that you will never earn by feigned compliance to the sabbath, which exists only as a component of the old covenant taken away by Jesus Christ?

from scratch said:

In Genesis it includes man. The sabbatismos is not a ritual observance, nor is it the sabbath.

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There is no indication that Adam had already entered into God's rest, that Scripture presents as a promise that remained to be attained "another day", as God declared when He spoke through David. But your point that the sabbatismos was never a ritual observance and wasn't the sabbath is a point I agree with.
What I find in Scripture is that God had full knowledge of the end product of His creation, even before the fall of mankind. As long as we remain faithful to the overall narrative of Scripture without reading assumptions into it, this appears to be consistent with His rest remaining to be attained only after Christ's propitiation made it available to mankind. His rest was not given to man in the Genesis account.

from scratch said:

Here you admit to the changing of the law. There goes your jot an tittle argument.So what is the book of Hebrews about? I don't think that Daniel is included in the focus of the book. I don't recall cleansing the temple/sancturary being discussed in Hebrews. In fact there is no word or form of the word cleanse or clean in Hebrews.

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You can read here about the cleansing of the sanctuary in Hebrews:


Adventist Sanctuary

from scratch said:

Here you admit to the changing of the law.

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Not the eternal moral law.

Adventist and others distinguish between the moral, ceremonial and civil laws.

There goes your jot an tittle argument.So what is the book of Hebrews about? I don't think that Daniel is included in the focus of the book. I don't recall cleansing the temple/sancturary being discussed in Hebrews. In fact there is no word or form of the word cleanse or clean in Hebrews.

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Hebrews is about showing that Christ is superior to the ritual system, because some Jewish Christian were thinking of returning to Judaism after prolonged persecution. Hebrews was encouraging them to hold on to Jesus, who serves in a real temple in heaven, is a superior sacrifice and priest.

Daniel shows that a full understanding of the cleansing of the temple would occur at the end of time when knowledge would increase.

Hebrews states that the heavenly temple needs better cleansing than the earthly one - see Heb. 9:23. This may be referring to the inauguration. However it shows that the heavenly temple can be cleansed.

VictorC said:

His rest was not given to man in the Genesis account.

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And why not? If you believe the Sabbatismos includes man in Hebrews, why exclude him from Genesis when Hebrews refers back to Genesis?

I'm on holiday now, without regular access to the net, so may not respond to posts until the New Year.

One of the best websites about the Sabbath is www.SabbathTruth.com

mrasell said:

And why not? If you believe the Sabbatismos includes man in Hebrews, why exclude him from Genesis when Hebrews refers back to Genesis?

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Is this an admission that the sabbaton didn't originate in the Genesis account, as you have been claiming up to this point?

And now that you're aware that God's rest wasn't the sabbath, why do you ask the same question over and over instead of acknowledging the answer that was provided? To review:

It appears that your question of man's inclusion into God's sabbatismos ignores the time-sensitive aspect of His rest that we have entered into.
The Genesis record doesn't show Adam resting with God, and this is a point that you have never acknowledged. Nor have you acknowledged the text of Hebrews 4 that summarizes God's rest (sabbatismos used in 4:9) was a promise referred to as another day that remained to be attained in the future for some of those who already had the sabbath: "a promise remains of entering His rest".

This thread's discussion has already concluded that Hebrews 3-4 uses the provocation of Numbers 14 as its backdrop, and doesn't address the sabbath at all. What you continually miss is where Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 and the narrative shows this as God's rest that remained a promise that those who were given the sabbath didn't have. That is consistent with the Genesis record, wherein there is no record at all of a sabbath that either repeated, followed a weekly cycle, or mankind ever participated in.

Your previous post merely concluded that the Biblical record "is impossible". I picked up on this and observed that Adventism is deeply rooted in rebellion. Now you have posts claiming that you keep the Ten Commandments, which was the covenant from Mount Sinai, and you already know the sabbath requires burnt offerings. We know that you haven't kept a sabbath day holy in over 1900 years, and you don't even acknowledge the Levitical priesthood requisite for the people that were charged with the sabbath. We were never given the sabbath, nor were we ever given the means to keep it holy as the Mosaic covenant law mandated. By the way, that's the same covenant from Mount Sinai (the Ten Commandments) that Galatians 4:21-31 charges that we should cast off, for those retained in it will not share in the Heir's inheritance (read: eternal life).

Don't look at your computer with that same blank look on your face anymore. All of these points have been shown to you, long detailed posts have been written by people who actually care about you and the mutated rendition of the Gospel you've been handed, and would like to set you on the same path that God designed in the first place. Is rebellion and bearing false witness the only thing you know, having a conscience seared from such a long history of listening to Ellen White's rebellion? Would you like me to fetch the quote from her that shows her conclusion that the application of the Bible is a great mistake if it contradicts her "special points"? Wouldn't you like to know you have eternal life, that you will never earn by feigned compliance to the sabbath, which exists only as a component of the old covenant taken away by Jesus Christ?

mrasell said:

Adventist and others distinguish between the moral, ceremonial and civil laws.

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This is a manmade division that doesn't exist anywhere in Scripture. Your reliance is on tradition, and not the Bible.

The weight of evidence of Gen. 2:2-3 and Ex. 20:8-11 points to the Sabbath beginning at Creation and it being an eternal moral law.

mrasell said:

The weight of evidence of Gen. 2:2-3 and Ex. 20:8-11 points to the Sabbath beginning at Creation and it being an eternal moral law.

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Half of your proof weight is completely empty and without merit.

RND said:

Wow, I've been gone six months and this thread got so many replies it split and morphed into another. Wow! This was my original post:

So as not to derail another thread I would like to know if there is one verse, just one, that shows conclusively that the sanctification of the seventh-day was done away with.

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God's rest is still God's rest therefore it never terminated for even a second...
...Man was "thrown out" of God's rest and THAT is when the thorns and sweat came.

RND said:

God set apart the seventh-day by sanctifying it. I am wondering what verse there is that says this sanctification was removed and transferred to another day.

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Again, it ( the "rest" or Sabbath ) was never removed - our first parents were kicked out of IT....
...Therefore since humanity perpetuates itself by propagation Adam's seed is thrown out of God's rest.
...We enter that rest via Christ NOT by observing a ceremonial which is alien to the Jewish understanding that rest always had.

RND quotes a Catholic said:

"Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. From beginning to end of scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first."-- Catholic Press Sydney, Australia, August 1900.


"Is there no express commandment for the observance of the first day of the week as a Sabbath, instead of the seventh day?
"None whatever. Neither Christ nor His apostles nor the first Christians celebrated [observed] the first day of the week, instead of the seventh as the Sabbath." --New York Weekly Tribune [Roman Catholic], May 24, 1900.


"Some non-Catholics object to Purgatory because there is no specific mention of it in Scripture. There is no specific mention of the word Sunday in Scripture [either]. The Sabbath is mentioned, but Sabbath means [a keeping of] Saturday. Yet the Christians of almost all denominations worship on Sunday not on Saturday. The Jews observe Saturday. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday."--Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics are Asked About, 1927, p. 236

"Protestants . . . accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change . . . But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that in accepting the Bible, in observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope."--Our Sunday Visitor, Feb. 5, 1950

"Some theologians have held that God [in the Bible] likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His [Catholic] Church the power to set aside whatever day or days, she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days, as holy days."--Vincent J. Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast Day Occupations, 1943, p. 2

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The "Church" means that grouping of Apostles and those who came after them....
...Therefore when articles like you quoted say, "the church made the change" - it means Apostolic individuals made the change.
...A Baptist or Methodist worships Christ as God on Sunday.
...They claim the New Testament Scriptures teaches this.

RND said:

Has anybody come up with a Biblical answer yet using scripture to support their answer? Just askin'

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Jesus was a Jew and the universal Jewish understanding of the Sabbath was that it was for THEM only....
...A Noahide DID NOT observe the Sabbath - sure they showed up for the Scripture reading.
...But after worship went back to work or continued whatever it was they were doing prior to going to worship.

The Sabbath command - as far as giving a higher power some time is MORAL or Natural...
...This is proven simply by looking at every culture the world has ever had.
...The specific time to do this however is not Natural or Moral.
...Man is not commanded to worship God on Saturday over any other day.
...Therefore that part of the Sabbath Command is ceremonial.

It is in this way the Church, by it's authority moved some of the aspects of the Jewish sacred day to the Christian Sunday....
...It's NOT that the Church is the beast power and did a Penn and Teller trick with the Sabbath.

RND said:

Still not yet! Amazing! No chapter, no verse.

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Here are some Scriptures for you then.

Genesis 2 said:

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

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The 7th day was to last for eternity - it was NEVER intended to end...
...Man was placed in this STATE and the only command was to "keep it".

After Adam sins we read,

Genesis 3 said:

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;


Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

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Adam and Eve lived in a "perfect state", a state that was intended to last forever...
...Toil & work was an alien concept prior to sin simply because God did everything and man did NOTHING.
...Man ONLY had to "keep it".

The Jewish understanding was that Adam and Eve were created and sinned on the 6th day PRIOR to the Sabbath...
...And were kicked out of the perfect state God placed them in.

The teaching that Adam and Eve were farmers in Eden and did weeding and stuff like that for 6 days and then worshiped with God on Sabbath...
...Is an alien teaching and suggests God's work was lacking and required man to 'maintain what God did'.

The Jewish New Year celebration is the celebration of this major event....
...That Adam and Eve didn't make it through to the Sabbath.
...And were created then sinned on the same day they were created.

RND said:

Nothing here suggests the sanctification of the seventh-day was altered or changed. Keep trying.

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That's the whole point - I'm saying the sanctification "never" changed...
...I'm saying that we ( humanity ) were kicked out of that "sanctification".

SDA tradition teaches that "God's rest" moved in and out of sanctification...
...So that Adam and Eve busted sod and "worked" for 6 days and then participated in a "Sabbath".
...This is an alien teaching from both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

A better way to say it would be to quote Jesus....
...When He said that the Sabbath was made for man - man was not made for the Sabbath.
...Remove man and what valid point would there be for even having a sabbath?