Forget the Sabbath day, it's no longer Holy... (2)

mrasell · Dec 13, 2010

Although the ceremonial days are not required, that is not to say Christians cannot celebrate Easter or Harvest Festival in a Christian way. There is nothing wrong with that, but we don't have to do that.

The controversy in Colossians were people saying something like, we must keep Easter to become more holy, and those who don't are not good Christians.

The weekly Sabbath is in a completely different category being part of the 10 commandments, ordained from the Creation. We can no more break the Sabbath than commit murder, without sinning. Because sin is transgression of the law 1 John 3:4.

Many Christians are not fully aware of the Sabbath truth at present, but the time is coming when all will know and have to make a choice - either for the papal Sabbath or God's Sabbath.

VictorC · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
Tall73 said:

The Old Testament parallels show that when the sabbaths were listed the weekly sabbath was included.

Click to expand...

There are problem in exporting an expression from one context to another, as the author may be using it with different meaning. As Paul qualified his expression with the term "shadow" and as the context was about keeping parts of the ritual law to be justified, and as Jesus said the moral law is eternal, its clear Paul did not intend his statement to be applied to the weekly Sabbath, as none of the 10 commandments are shadows but eternal moral laws. His readers would have understood what he meant.

The premise that the old covenant (Ten Commandments) was comprised only of moral laws that were eternal isn't supported in Scripture. Neither is a division between "moral" and "ceremonial" law found in the law mediated by Moses. Tall73 and I have both pointed out that the weekly sabbath was a component of law that required burnt offerings, and a priesthood that was authorized by the law to make those burnt offerings.

Tall73's point about the inclusion of the weekly sabbath mentioned as a shadow in Colossians 2:16-17 is perfectly valid. He has only argued against the sequence of annual --> monthly --> weekly model that appears in the text, instead introducing another model that has reasonable support from Scripture that transfers the annual sabbath associated with the Day of Atonement from the "feast" category to the "sabbaths" category. The point that the "sabbaths" include the weekly hasn't been changed, and Scripture addresses it as a shadow.

The only grounds you have to object to what Paul wrote as Scripture is to redefine the Ten Commandments into something it isn't, and ignore the sacrifices associated on the weekly sabbath "which are offered according to the law" (Hebrews 10:9). I have offered a number of posts that suggest the sabbath was indeed a shadow of God's rest that originated in the Genesis account and has no end, and the reason you don't accept that is because you don't know the origin of the sabbath.

We're really tired of opinions that contradict Scripture. You know as well as any experienced member of this forum that Jesus didn't say the "moral" law was eternal anywhere in the Biblical record.

mrasell · Dec 13, 2010

The Sabbath is moral in that we show our allegience to our Creator and Re-Creator. It is also a sign that God sanctifies us. We show our loyalty to God by keeping His laws. And we are a part of spiritual Israel. Isaiah 56:4-6 mentions righteous Gentiles keeping the Sabbath.

To break the Sabbath is to break all the commandments (acc. to James), and so is disloyalty to Jehovah. The question is, will we be loyal to the papacy and its Sabbath or God and His Sabbath?

VictorC · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
Its clear that the ceremonial sabbaths ended at the cross because they were shadows, requiring animal sacrifices.

That conclusion alone calls for an end to the weekly sabbath.

mrasell said:
The same cannot be said of the Sabbath because it originated before the fall when there were no animal sacrifices and was intended to last as long as the earth lasted.

Because you don't know the requirements for keeping the sabbath holy according to the law that ordained it, and don't know the origin of the sabbath, you simply contradict yourself as well as Scripture.

mrasell · Dec 13, 2010

VictorC said:
I have offered a number of posts that suggest the sabbath was indeed a shadow of God's rest that originated in the Genesis account and has no end, and the reason you don't accept that is because you don't know the origin of the sabbath.

I agree with you that the Sabbath has no end, it is an eternal type.

VictorC · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
The weekly Sabbath began in Eden (Gen. 2:2-3).

Repeating this falsified origin of the sabbath is the reason you write conclusions that are not consistent with Scripture.

The Genesis account doesn't record a rest observed by any human; the seventh day is in absolute terms rather than a repetitive cycle to describe God's rest.
Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath, using the same sentence structure found in Deuteronomy 5:15 that lists a single event in the past as the impetus to ordain the periodic sabbath.
Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath, and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to document God's rest those who had the sabbath had not attained.
Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

Not once have you ever responded to what the Bible attests the origin of the sabbath actually was - it was made for man, and traces its origin to the manna experience about a month before the covenant from Mount Sinai was given, which was the Ten Commandments. God's rest documented in the Genesis account remained a promise to be attained another day, as David speaking by the Holy Ghost testified.

Do you not see how deeply this unBiblical presumption concerning God's rest recorded in Genesis 2 permeates your entire thought process? It is deeply rooted to the extent that it blinds you.

VictorC · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
I agree with you that the Sabbath has no end, it is an eternal type.

You just contradicted what I wrote.

VictorC said:
I have offered a number of posts that suggest the sabbath was indeed a shadow of God's rest that originated in the Genesis account and has no end, and the reason you don't accept that is because you don't know the origin of the sabbath.

Why did you rely on a fabrication for your point?

VictorC · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
(the term "my sabbaths" is used for the weekly Sabbath - see Isa. 56:4-6)

Would you like to review Isaiah 56:4-6 , and tell us just what covenant the Gentiles were to take a hold of? This verse has no applicability after the tenure of that covenant came to an end.

VictorC · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
The Sabbath is moral in that we show our allegience to our Creator and Re-Creator. It is also a sign that God sanctifies us. We show our loyalty to God by keeping His laws. And we are a part of spiritual Israel. Isaiah 56:4-6 mentions righteous Gentiles keeping the Sabbath.

To break the Sabbath is to break all the commandments (acc. to James), and so is disloyalty to Jehovah. The question is, will we be loyal to the papacy and its Sabbath or God and His Sabbath?

Perhaps you should produce some evidence showing how the papacy reinstated the sabbath that Jesus took away (see Hebrews 10:8-9), which He did before the papacy existed.

Sophia7 · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
Jesus said the moral law is eternal. . . ."

Where do you see that in the Bible?

mrasell · Dec 13, 2010

VictorC said:
You just contradicted what I wrote.

Why did you rely on a fabrication for your point?

You said the Sabbath was a shadow of God's rest which never ends.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant.

Do you believe then that a shadow can point backwards?

(I don't believe the Sabbath is a shadow as it began at Creation before the fall Gen. 2:2-3)

mrasell · Dec 13, 2010

Sophia7 said:
Where do you see that in the Bible?

Matthew 5:17-19

VictorC · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
You said the Sabbath was a shadow of God's rest which never ends.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant.

Do you believe then that a shadow can point backwards?

Not only can point backwards, but in this instance the sabbath points both backwards and forward. It points backward to God's rest that originated in the Genesis account, and points forward to the time we would enter that rest that remained a promise to be attained by those who already had the sabbath.

mrasell said:
(I don't believe the Sabbath is a shadow as it began at Creation before the fall Gen. 2:2-3)

Repeating this falsified origin of the sabbath is the reason you write conclusions that are not consistent with Scripture.

The Genesis account doesn't record a rest observed by any human; the seventh day is in absolute terms rather than a repetitive cycle to describe God's rest.
Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath, using the same sentence structure found in Deuteronomy 5:15 that lists a single event in the past as the impetus to ordain the periodic sabbath.
Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath, and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2 to document God's rest those who had the sabbath had not attained.
Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

Not once have you ever responded to what the Bible attests the origin of the sabbath actually was - it was made for man, and traces its origin to the manna experience about a month before the covenant from Mount Sinai was given, which was the Ten Commandments. God's rest documented in the Genesis account remained a promise to be attained another day, as David speaking by the Holy Ghost testified.

Do you not see how deeply this unBiblical presumption concerning God's rest recorded in Genesis 2 permeates your entire thought process? It is deeply rooted to the extent that it blinds you.

VictorC · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
Matthew 5:17-19

Perhaps it would be a good idea to quote that passage rather than citing it. Then you can demonstrate your contention that Jesus didn't fulfill the law concerning Himself. This doesn't support your claim that Jesus said the "moral" law was eternal.

tall73 · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
God told Saul to wait for one week for the prophet to come but he got impatient and offered the sacrifice. Clearly when God commands something, even time, it is a moral principle.

If God tells you to do something on a specific day, and you choose to do it another day, there is a moral principle.

Lev. 19:3 links the 4th and 5th commandments:
"Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God."

(the term "my sabbaths" is used for the weekly Sabbath - see Isa. 56:4-6)

Indeed, Israel had a moral command to keep ALL the law, not just the ten. So how does that make the 10 commandments an enduring moral law?

I am not Saul. Nor am I the nation of Israel.

In fact Israel had to keep the sabbath above all according to Ex. 31, since it was a sign WITH THEM.

tall73 · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
Deut. 29:29 tells us to focus on what God has revealed rather than what He has not.

So you do not think Jesus inaugurated or that it says He inaugurated?

Hebrews speaks of what Jesus has accomplished, as well as what he is accomplishing by his continual intercession on the basis of what he accomplished on the cross (Heb. 7:25; 9:24).

Jesus accomplished provision, purification for sins. We accept it in real time, which I stated from the outset. But then how is it you thought there was no timing specified?

Sophia7 · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
The weekly Sabbath began in Eden (Gen. 2:2-3) and is part of the eternal moral law which cannot be divided (James 2:10-11).

James 2:10-11:

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

The context:

2:1 My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism.
2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes,
3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,"
4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?
7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

The "royal law" is Jesus' commandment to "love your neighbor as yourself," which He quoted from the law--but not from the ten commandments:

Leviticus 19:18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

The commandment against showing partiality is also from the law--but not from the ten commandments:

Deuteronomy 1:17 'You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You shall not fear man, for the judgment is God's. The case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.'

The context clearly indicates that James refers to the whole law, not only to the ten commandments. He does not separate those two of the ten that he quotes from the rest of the law. If you favor the rich over the poor, you have broken one of the commandments of the whole law--one that is not included in the ten (as well as Jesus' and the law's commandment to love your neighbor as yourself). Is the commandment against partiality moral or ceremonial, Rasell?

VictorC · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
And we are a part of spiritual Israel.

This claim is exclusively yours alone.

I am not a child of Israel.
I am an adopted child of God.

Matthew 17
24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?"
25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?"
26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free".

The children of the King enjoy the same sovereignty over the created law that the Creator of that law enjoys. It was made for the children of Israel for a limited tenure, and wasn't bound to those God redeemed as His own children.

tall73 · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
When Sunday keeping began in the 2nd century, it was not seen as a replacement for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was not abandonded till about the 6th century because of anti semitism and an influx of pagan sun worshippers..

I think Barnabas has some crazy ideas overall, but just historically speaking your statement is not correct.

Further, He says to them, “Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure.” Ye perceive how He speaks:
Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have
made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning
of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we
keep the eighth day with joyfullness, the day also on which Jesus rose
again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended
into the heavens. Epistle of Barnabas

Incidentally the longer context makes it clear he is speaking of the 7th day Sabbath, as does mention of an eighth day.

Another passage, from the dialogue of Trypho with Justin Martyr:

Quoting Trypho:
If, then, you are willing to listen to me (for I have already considered you a friend), first be
circumcised, then observe what ordinances have been enacted with respect
to the Sabbath, and the feasts, and the new moons of God; and, in a word,
do all things which have been written in the law: and then perhaps you
shall obtain mercy from God.

Part of Justin's response

“Is there any other matter, my friends, in which we are blamed, than this,
that we live not after the law, and are not circumcised in the flesh as your
forefathers were, and do not observe sabbaths as you do?

tall73 · Dec 13, 2010

mrasell said:
The NAS, Darby are most accuarate as it does not say "for sins" but "of sins", and the ancient manuscripts omit "our".

If Hebrews had wanted to say our sins were forgiven at the cross, he could have said "for our sins", but instead he says, "of sins".

This verse is then clarified by what follows, the once for all sacrifice, and the continual intercession (Heb. 7:25; 9:24).

The cross made provision for the forgiveness of sins which is applied by Christ as High Priest when a person confesses.

Otherwise there would be no need for confession of sin.

A. You apparently did not read either my post clearly or the text.

B. I already said it is the provision for all sin that is made. Jesus already made purification for all sins by His one act. But we receive it in real time.

C. This is what the priest did on the Day of Atonement. He made cleansing of sins for the whole camp, corporately. They still either accepted or rejected that provision individually.

Now before you said Hebrews spelled out no timing. But now you are even referencing timing. Did you change your mind?

And why did you delete all the other mentions of timing?

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