Forcing the Chruch to accept homosexuality..

[Zaac]

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 3-7

 

[onemorequestion]

## And many of those fighting "for equal rights for homosexuals" do so not because they are anti-Christian, but because they are Christians who are trying to make the values of the Kingdom of God are reality in the world.

Then let them found their own religion based on some parts of the Bible, discarding many other parts of the Bible and be done with the accusing of Christians ploy.

Those values include righteousness & peace & the promotion of righteousness.

"Promotion of righteousness?" Where is there any justification to label homosexual behavior as righteousness?

Sad to say, there is an element in the witness of Christians that is not righteous, that is opposed to the values of the Kingdom, & one way it comes out is in the preasching of hate against homosexuals.

If holding to marriage as a man and a woman, and that, being the holiness of Christian sexuality is "hate," then Jesus is first in the hate speech line. Peter, Jude, James, John and Paul standing their places behind him.

The Churches ought to be the first place after the home in which gay Christians can find sympathy, support, & recognition that they are children of God regardless of whether they are straight or not.

"Sympathy?" "Sympathy?" That is not tolerated BY LGBT's to consider their sexual tastes as something we find sympathy for. Support and recognixe homosexuality as a righteous behavior???? That is altering Christianity into a version of secular humanism. It is ripping out of Christian truth what is true and replacing it with pop culture.

What is so sad, & shameful, is that too often that is exactly what does not happen. It is painful enough for homosexuals to come to terms with their homosexuality - for Christians who come to recognise that they are homosexual by orientation, the discovery can be devastating.

Why? What is so different in "coming to terms" with homosexual desires, than coming to terms with the desire to cheat on your wife or steal from your freinds? Why does gay behavior get a different treatment than any otehr sin? Why does that sin have to be redefined as acceptable behavior?

And then the Churches add to the pain, when they should be helping people to live through it.

Prove that "the Churches" are NOT trying to help people through their desires to have gay sex? Remember, there is no justification to have gay sex in Christian truth as it is presented IN the New Testament.

This weighs down those who are already heavy-laden with a further burden;

How? Prove that? What makes the desiring to have gay sex such a burden??? Should Christians now just stop preaching repentance for fear of it insulting some sinner that desires to sin?

. . . no wonder many leave the Churches & the Christ they speak for, or commit suicide.

Oh really? There are many, many, many "gay affirming Churches" so they say, so why does any person that desires gay sex have to leave the Church???

And on suicide? That is a false charge that it is somehow some Christians fault.

Part of the problem IMHO is that gays, including gay Christians, are not seen as individual human beings:

That's a crock. It is precisely because we Christians that do not desire to discard Christian truth for the gay agenda to be paraded down our aisles at our Churches, that absolutely see each individual as an individual. It is the pro-gay side that screams at us that when we preach repentance TO the individual engaging in homosexuality, that we are preaching something wrong. Which of course makes homophobes of Jesus and the Apostles and the very words of the New Testament.

. . . they are seen, instead, as case studies

Um, THAT would be how they are viewed by secular psychology.

- as "sinners", as members of an anonymous group who "measure up" to the description of something found in the Bible that just happens to be condemned.

The liberal theological position that homosexual behavior is a blessed thing to do has been shown as wrong every time someone trumpets that song.

But man is not made for the Bible - the Bible is made for man.

That does not sanction gay sex in Christian truth.

Being made by God, & loved by God, takes precedence over everything mere man can be or do - it takes precedence over being gay, & over being condemned for it.

That position advocates "Anything Goes."

People come to Christ "just as [they are]" - including those who are gay.

And they are changed BY the expereince. They are not to accept Christ and then go encourage others to stay in their sins too. Jesus, in fact, details these kinds of people. They hear the Gospel, and then stay caught up in the ways of the world. Peter details this as well.

God foreknew every single person who would either be gay & then, while still being gay, would be converted to Christ; & every single person who, while being Christian, would find he or she was gay.

That is a very bizaare theological position. Prove it has in any way, validity????

So how can the Churches cast out those whom God does not ?

What Church "casts out" homosexuals????????

Or don't they believe in salvation by grace alone ?

And anything goes too? Preach that sin is not sin and that as long as someone finds insult and having their sins pointed out we then must alter all of Christian truth to accomodate said sinner???

In Romans 8, St. Paul makes no exception for anything - "I am persuaded that nothing can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus".

In Romans 1, Paul says that God "gave them up" to a reprobate minds to do what should'nt be done.

So how can being gay do that, even *if* it is a sin ?

Well, the liberal position says that "being gay" is not the same thing as doing gay. So, if one desires to sin but doesn't sin, they are joining every other Christian that has ever accepted Christ as Savior. The New Testament calls that a "new creation" in Christ. There is no support for becoming a Christian and then celebrating sin and sinners and trying to support and encourage sinners to continue to sin. In fact, Jesus condemns this as being an ever worse sinner than just a common sinner.

Just MO

I'll listen to the opinions of Christ Jesus and the Apostles on the subject. And, as the pro-gay side is so repetitive in pointing out, Jesus never said a word about homosexuality.

But the Disciples - that were taught ALL THINGS by Jesus - most certainly did. And not one word for supporting homosexuality can be found anywhere in the New Testament . . . but many that can be shown that does not encourage but disapprove of its practice.

 

[onemorequestion]

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 3-7

Jude's first century treatise in opposition of 21st century gay pride in The Church. No doubt about it.

 

[Phinehas2]

Hairy Tic,

People come to Christ "just as [they are]" - including those who are gay. God foreknew every single person who would either be gay & then, while still being gay, would be converted to Christ; & every single person who, while being Christian, would find he or she was gay. So how can the Churches cast out those whom God does not ? Or don't they believe in salvation by grace alone ? In Romans 8, St. Paul makes no exception for anything - "I am persuaded that nothing can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus". So how can being gay do that, even *if* it is a sin ?

Western society has largely adopted the idea of gays and being gay despite there being no proof of being gay. To God, gays are not gays but men or women who experience anatomically disordered sexual attraction. For God there is no such thing as gays, His word shows the concept is error. So what you are referring to as ‘gay catholics’ is an oxymoron and has no place in a Christian forum.

It is no use citing Romans 8 when one ignores the Bible hollistically. Romans 8 like a number of verses in the Bible is referring to those in Christ, to be in Christ is to agree with and seek to do what He teaches. (ie John 14-17)
To think of oneself as gay, or to seek same sex relationships is not an example of being ‘in’ Christ as one can see from scripture.

probably refers to a passage in 1 Enoch. The fallen angels sinned, not by same sex acts, but by lusting after the "daughters of men" (among other things - Gen. 6:1-4 is at the bottom of the story). Verse 6 is a very good description of how they are presented at one point.

Of course it probably refers to Enoch 1’s prophecy, but the passage also says in a similar way the men of Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. Don’t try and deceive people but cherry picking bits out of context to use against other verses.

 

[Phinehas2]

Hairy Tic,
You have proposed why some of the texts might not be what they say and a couple of other generalisations with texts.
Here is the truth again.

God’s creation purpose for man and woman
Gen 2 – “23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, '
for she was taken out of man."
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
Matt 19 “4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh']?
Mark 10 “"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'[a] 7'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.'[c] So they are no longer two, but one”
Eph 5 “31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.”
1 Cor 7 “It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. “

God’s condemnation of homosexuality
Gen 19 “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Leviticus 18 “22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "
Leviticus 20 “13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.”
1 Corinthians 6
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Romans 1- “26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion


One of the warnings to believers.
Jude 1 “3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

 

[Phinehas2]

Polycarp1,

This post deserves to be read and re-read by every Christian engaged in the debate, on either side.

I agree. And they also need to read Jude 1

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
and 1 Cor 5
11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

 

[KCKID]

3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 3-7

I'm going to go out on a limb here, Zaac, because I don't know ANY MORE THAN YOU DO as to what – precisely - that particular text is referencing. We are all very much in the dark when we hear a conversation or see a letter addressing something only from one side of an issue. We really have little idea what was being addressed here. It's like hearing only one side of a telephone conversation. We might get a portion of the gist of the conversation from this end but we don’t know what 100% of the conversation was about. What we CAN do is to make something fit to fill in the missing parts. Lord knows, Christians do that all the time ...usually something with which to bolster a cherished mindset.

I would strongly suggest that the above text has to do with pagan worship - something that God simply ABHORS! - and that the references to sexual immorality and perversion are either metaphors for 'general ungodliness' and NOT literal in meaning or they are descriptive of some kinds of pagan worship rituals. I do not believe for a moment that they refer to homosexuality per se. I would also suggest that YOU, Zaac, are filling in the blanks with something with which to bolster a cherished mindset ...

 

[Phinehas2]

KCKID,

I'm going to go out on a limb here, Zaac, because I don't know ANY MORE THAN YOU DO precisely what that particular text is referencing.

We do. It is any false teaching of sexual immorality such as the defence or promotion of homosexuality.

We are all very much in the dark when we hear a conversation or see a letter addressing issues only from one side of the issue.

I know, you are also not willing to accept what the passages excluding and condemning same sex relations say and mean. But we are not in the dark about it.

 

[KCKID]

KCKID,
We do. It is any false teaching of sexual immorality such as the defence or promotion of homosexuality.

Baloney.

I know, you are also not willing to accept what the passages excluding and condemning same sex relations say and mean. But we are not in the dark about it.

You're obviously quite obsessed with one's 'bedroom activity', Phinehas. I have no idea why but it might not be a good idea to involve God in this apparent 'fetish' of yours.

 

[Phinehas2]

KCKID,

Baloney

You said you dont know precisiely what it means, we do. If you dont know, you dont know its baloney.
It says what it says, it says sexual immorality and homosexuality is described as sexual immorality.
I am not obsessed at all, God's word is clear that sexual immorality is sex outside His cration purpose for faithful man/woman union. If you insist in disagreeing then the obsession is yours, if you agreed with God's word there would be no need to mention it.

 

[onemorequestion]

KCKID,
You said you dont know precisiely what it means, we do. If you dont know, you dont know its baloney.

Desperation in the liberal theological position. It's get worse when you are accused of being "obsessed" with homosexuality, when all you are doing is contending for the faith against heresy. A Christian should be quite obsessed with protecting the Church from heresy. Gay theology is as much error as any false teaching ever has been. When it is shown for the completely incompatible theology that it is, you get charged with "why are you obsessed with homosexuality?" When it is the gay rights movement that showcases the behavior as its defining moment.

Notice P2, these advocates of liberal/gay theology, could just invent their own religion, but don't. It speaks voluems to what their end goal is.

It says what it says, it says sexual immorality and homosexuality is described as sexual immorality.

And provably so. Notice the obsession of the continued attack on orthodoxy?

I am not obsessed at all, God's word is clear that sexual immorality is sex outside His cration purpose for faithful man/woman union.

And everything is fine until that is attacked incessantly.

If you insist in disagreeing then the obsession is yours, if you agreed with God's word there would be no need to mention it.

It's that matter of fact.

Well done Phinehas2.

 

[Archivist]

There's a difference between:

requiring Catholics to recognise gay unions as good in the law of the land,

requiring the CC to change its doctrine & practice so that gay Catholics can have their unions recognised by the Church.

first may be objectionable, but so are many practices & institutions recognised as legal. The second OTOH would violate the rights of conscience, as the CC's doctrine & practice on the matter, however repulsive to many (& many people do find it repulsive) is something it judges that it cannot in conscience change to allow gay Catholics to have their unions blessed & approved by the Church.

Which of these are people working to have accepted ? Both ?

Well said. The article posted by Phinehas2 does not state that churches would be forced to perform homosexual marriage as he claimed. Allowing a church to perform a homosexual marriage and forcing a church to perform homosexual marriage are two very different things.

 

[Archivist]

KCKID,
You said you dont know precisiely what it means, we do. If you dont know, you dont know its baloney.
It says what it says, it says sexual immorality and homosexuality is described as sexual immorality.
I am not obsessed at all, God's word is clear that sexual immorality is sex outside His cration purpose for faithful man/woman union. If you insist in disagreeing then the obsession is yours, if you agreed with God's word there would be no need to mention it.

According to your interpretation of God's word.

 

[LightHorseman]

According to your interpretation of God's word.

Please don't get him started again on how "Christians agree with his interpretation of God's word".

 

[onemorequestion]

Please don't get him started again on how "Christians agree with his interpretation of God's word".

Liberal theology is simply an interpretation of God's word. It fails to deliver any sensilble reality on homosexuality now being supported. It ends up with wierd railings and rantings that Christians that live as Christians are taught to live by the founders of The Chuch, are some how meanies. Liberal theology just boils down to wierdness.

 

[Zaac]

I'm going to go out on a limb here, Zaac, because I don't know ANY MORE THAN YOU DO as to what – precisely - that particular text is referencing.

I'm gonna crawl out there on that limb and tell you that the text is referencing exactly what the words on the page say that it is referencing.

We are all very much in the dark when we hear a conversation or see a letter addressing something only from one side of an issue. We really have little idea what was being addressed here. It's like hearing only one side of a telephone conversation. We might get a portion of the gist of the conversation from this end but we don’t know what 100% of the conversation was about. What we CAN do is to make something fit to fill in the missing parts. Lord knows, Christians do that all the time ...usually something with which to bolster a cherished mindset.

15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. James 3:15-16

The devil and his wisdom are indeed consistent. Always trying to breed confusion and call into question what God "really" says. It's the Garden of Eden all over again.

Those who want to be in the dark are in the dark.

I would strongly suggest that the above text has to do with pagan worship - something that God simply ABHORS! - and that the references to sexual immorality and perversion are either metaphors for 'general ungodliness' and NOT literal in meaning or they are descriptive of some kinds of pagan worship rituals.

15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. James 3:15-16

I would strongly suggest that the devil's wisdom has no place in a Christian forum.

I do not believe for a moment that they refer to homosexuality per se.

Because homosexuality is the idol that you have placed before GOD.

I would also suggest that YOU, Zaac, are filling in the blanks with something with which to bolster a cherished mindset ...

I would suggest that YOU,KCKID, stop raising up all things homosexual as an idol, and deal with what the words on the page say.

 

[LightHorseman]

Hey Zaac, given that marriage magically makes it OK for siblings to have sex, why isn't it just as powerful to magically de-ickify homosexuality?

 

[Zaac]

Desperation in the liberal theological position. It's get worse when you are accused of being "obsessed" with homosexuality, when all you are doing is contending for the faith against heresy. A Christian should be quite obsessed with protecting the Church from heresy. Gay theology is as much error as any false teaching ever has been. When it is shown for the completely incompatible theology that it is, you get charged with "why are you obsessed with homosexuality?" When it is the gay rights movement that showcases the behavior as its defining moment.

Notice P2, these advocates of liberal/gay theology, could just invent their own religion, but don't. It speaks voluems to what their end goal is.

And they say there is no gay agenda. It is the same as the devil's agenda, and that is to be GOD.

Thus the constant attempt to undo God's word and call into question what God "really" says.

 

[Zaac]

Hey Zaac, given that marriage magically makes it OK for siblings to have sex, why isn't it just as powerful to magically de-ickify homosexuality?

If you want to talk about Biblical marriage, start another thread. And just remember that marriage can't de-ickify homosexuality because two people of the same sex can't Biblically get married.

 

[Zaac]

Start another thread if you want to talk about Biblical marriage.