Forcing the Chruch to accept homosexuality..

[AngelusSax]

Perhaps if you attempted to stay on topic confusion would not come to you so quickly.

So the thread title isn't what the thread is about?

 

[drich0150]

FYI, I'm a Christian, and have belonged to several groups with homosexuals as members, and I've never been discriminated against by any of them.

This point is some what on topic. So it merits a legitimate response.

Identifying sin in an unrepentant brother is not discrimination in anyway. We are call to do this with anyone, not just gay people. You misunderstand basic Christianity, for bigotry. In that without repentance of sin, their can not be forgiveness of said sin no matter what it is. Having a non-biblical world based view on tolerance toward certain sin, does not excuse the sin before the Lord. Remember Christ Died for Forgiveness of Sin and not the Permissibility of Sin.

What Most of us are doing is simply identifying sin. It take a intolerant attitude to only view this as just another form of hate, primarily because it does not fit your specific way of doing things. You will do well to remember this is a conversation is about the expressed Will of God (What is recorded in scripture) The Church, (Those who claim Christianity and by default God's expressed will) Sin, (Anything not in the expressed will of God) and how that relates to the Homosexual Doctrine. (Permissibility of sin, and unbiblical tolerance, rather Forgiveness through repentance like any other sin.) This is not a secular discussion about the permissibility of Homosexuality in our society. Do try and color with in the lines this time.

 

[drich0150]

hi drich,

It is done to keep us in line as civilised human beings.
For they fear if Christian man had an easy ride politically they would kill all homosexual offenders as happened during the Old Testament days and Yahweh's nEW tESTAMENT DAYS.
And so as not to offend any homosexual, Christian man might put to death every adulter and adultress also.
Does that answer your question as to why homosexuals are infiltrating a Christian man's domain?

seekthelord

Not really. Because in order for the Homosexual doctrine to be accepted the Gospel of the Forgiveness of sin has to be removed. This act eliminates Christianity. So you are saying in order for us to be considered "civilised" we must turn our backs on God.

 

[Polycarp1]

This point is some what on topic. So it merits a legitimate response.

Identifying sin in an unrepentant brother is not discrimination in anyway. We are call to do this with anyone, not just gay people. You misunderstand basic Christianity, for bigotry. In that without repentance of sin, their can not be forgiveness of said sin no matter what it is. Having a non-biblical world based view on tolerance toward certain sin, does not excuse the sin before the Lord. Remember Christ Died for Forgiveness of Sin and not the Permissibility of Sin.

What Most of us are doing is simply identifying sin. It take a intolerant attitude to only view this as just another form of hate, primarily because it does not fit your specific way of doing things. You will do well to remember this is a conversation is about the expressed Will of God (What is recorded in scripture) The Church, (Those who claim Christianity and by default God's expressed will) Sin, (Anything not in the expressed will of God) and how that relates to the Homosexual Doctrine. (Permissibility of sin, and unbiblical tolerance, rather Forgiveness through repentance like any other sin.) This is not a secular discussion about the permissibility of Homosexuality in our society. Do try and color with in the lines this time.

So, then, we would be justified in saying that YOU are failing to repent of your sins against our brothers and sisters of same-sex orientation in your numerous misstatements of the Gospel from your fraudulent so-called "non-denominational Bible-based" viewpoint, which has never been the stance of historical Christianity, and that your sins are not forgiven until you repent of them. And that therefore your civil rights should be impeded by all right-thinking people until you come to your senses and repent? (And yes, this is not a personal attack; it's following Jesus's direct commandments as spelled out in the Gospels. And I can cite you book chapter, and verse for every one of them if you wish.)

Or does the shoe pinch too much when it's your own foot that it is on? Because Jesus said, in effect, that if it does, you're not following His will. So take a good hard look at what you are purveying here.

And that is not "excusing away sin" -- it's pointing out a sin that bars you from doing what you've been doing to gay people in this and other threads. Again by Jesus's direct and explicit commandment.

Now, do you plan on repenting of your sin? Or are you going to make some handwaving claim that I'm changing the subject.

The subject is whether homosexuals are "forcing the Church to accept them." They're not. But Jesus is. Or else you've turned your holier-than-thou back on Him too.

It's in the Gospels.

 

[drich0150]

I don't think that's the reason... Many try to just live their lives, but are berated constantly by conservatives (the majority of whom mean well), and after so long of this happening, I think a lot of them just start fighting back. It's probably far less important that someone agree with them either theologically or politically than it is they don't get berated for being who they are. Unfortunately, many people will stop berating only when they agree. Hence, the arguments.

That's my thoughts, anyway. It's pretty much conjecture, but it's how I think I would feel in the same situation.

To berate means to scold harshly. Their is no point or purpose other than the personal satisfaction of the person doing the berating. First and foremost know that I am not saying this never happens in a Christian setting. But also know that what you blanket with this general term also includes a call to repentance of sin. This is done so that the one in sin may find forgiveness of sin and can be accepted into the fellowship of believers.

Remember Christ didnot die for the permissibility of sin, but the forgiveness of sin. Of which, repentance is the first step, and the first step of repentance is to identify sin in our lives. When we turn a blind eye to our own sin it is up to our BROTHERS to point that sin out.

That is what my efforts are about.

 

[drich0150]

So the thread title isn't what the thread is about?

This thread is about INFILTRATION of the Homosexual Doctrine into the Body of believers, not the INDOCTRINATION of the body of believers to the homosexual Doctrine. (Which seems to be the only topic "sniper guy" is prepared to discuss with me.)

I would have thought that you have been involved here long enough to recognize that if you chose to.

Or do you simply not give me credit enough to identify my own intentions?

 

[AngelusSax]

Not really. Because in order for the Homosexual doctrine to be accepted the Gospel of the Forgiveness of sin has to be removed.

This statement implies that you think the only sin to ever exist is homosexuality. There's all sorts of sin out there that isn't based on faulty translations to be forgiven from, a man-made sin based on faulty translations and misinterpretations and projecting 21st century knowledge onto 1st century authors of Scripture isn't really necessary to still need forgiveness. There's inhospitality, greed, lust (which does apply to both the homosexual and heterosexual, as all sins do), lying, hatred, murder (which hatred is, according to Christ), idolatry (which can be as severe as worshipping Baal, or as "minor" as putting money above God--we think of it as minor because we don't consider ourselves to be doing it even when we are, because sin is sneaky that way), and so on. There's judging someone else's speck before removing your own plank. All sorts of things.

You may say that if you accept homosexuality then you must accept everything, because it's an all-or-nothing issue. If that is your faith, I won't remain here as a stumbling block for you. But some of us are able to examine our faith and take a close, hard look at the different facets of it, and then remove what ultimately needs removed based on our understanding, and keep what needs kept, never having to forsake the entire Bible to change something, because it's our understanding the Bible that changes. In other words, we don't change God and don't say God has changed (well, I don't, though some might... let me be clear on that). Of course, there are stories where prayer is shown to have caused God to change God's mind (Moses praying to God to not wipe the Israelites off the map comes to mind). But anyway, it is our understanding of the Bible that changes. It's not just doing away with things because we don't like it. If I were going to do that, to be honest, I would do away with condemnation of lust as adultery. There's lots of times I find myself either lusting of coming close to it, and I'd like to just go ahead and do that (and I have fallen and looked at sites I shouldn't, to be honest and confessional here), but I still understand that to be sin.

I do not understand homosexuality to be a sin, except the kind being addressed in the Bible, where people who had wives were engaging in homosexual sex (people were sold to each other as husband and wife before they could make any real decision for themselves the way they do today, in most cases)., either through ritualistic orgies or to degrade their fellow man in an act of forcing that man into the woman's position, essentially raping them. Committed, lifelong relantionships of a homosexual nature were not being thought of or discussed, so there is no prohibition of them in mind, as I understand it. And since there is no prohibition of them in mind in the written Scriptures (again, as I understand it), I can make no prohibition either.

You don't like that, you don't have to. I'm not now, nor ever, going to force you to my position. But just know that my position doesn't come from mere whims and likes and dislikes. That's all I really ask.

 

[AngelusSax]

This thread is about INFILTRATION of the Homosexual Doctrine into the Body of believers, not the INDOCTRINATION of the body of believers to the homosexual Doctrine. (Which seems to be the only topic "sniper guy" is prepared to discuss with me.)

I would have thought that you have been involved here long enough to recognize that if you chose to.

Or do you simply not give me credit enough to identify my own intentions?

Accepting homosexuality, and the forcedness of that, is indoctrination. Perhaps you titled the thread wrong and that confuses people.

 

[drich0150]

So, then, we would be justified in saying that YOU are failing to repent of your sins against our brothers and sisters of same-sex orientation in your numerous misstatements of the Gospel from your fraudulent so-called "non-denominational Bible-based" viewpoint, which has never been the stance of historical Christianity, and that your sins are not forgiven until you repent of them.

If "Historical Christianity" was the actual standard in which sins were measured, then yes. But as it is The Bible is the standard in which we are to determine God's expressed will. not through committee nor through some sort of emissary. Because the bible is our sole source to determine God's Expressed will, I will say that not adhering to a specific denomination is not a sin because no specific denomination was mentioned in the Bible for the "correct" worship of God.

That said I know my efforts are not without sin and it is to this sin that I ask God to forgive me for these sins and I ask that He continue to bless me with these words and insights so that I may continue to dispel all who appose the Expressed will of God as witnessed not through a committee, but through the Bible.

And that therefore your civil rights should be impeded by all right-thinking people until you come to your senses and repent? (And yes, this is not a personal attack; it's following Jesus's direct commandments as spelled out in the Gospels. And I can cite you book chapter, and verse for every one of them if you wish.)

Again this is not an issue about how the world treats homosexuals this is about Identifying sin and repenting of that sin. If you wish to hold Christianity accountable to something then show them how to treat a Repentant Sinner.

Or does the shoe pinch too much when it's your own foot that it is on? Because Jesus said, in effect, that if it does, you're not following His will. So take a good hard look at what you are purveying here.

Christ Will is outlined in Mat 28:
The Great Commission

16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Stay with me now. Because It is in verse 19 that we are told that Christ's will is that we go fourth and make disciples.. Disciples are people who Believe in the Gospel of Christ. That Gospel is one of REPENTANCE and FORGIVENESS of Sin. Not the Acceptance of sin that the "Historical church" seems to be teaching..

You also need to understand that your Warning/Judgment of my efforts will be used to measure you as well. I have shown you where your interpretation of scripture is lacking in the Will of Christ. Can you in turn show me using Book Chapter and Verse of your interpretation?

Now, do you plan on repenting of your sin? Or are you going to make some handwaving claim that I'm changing the subject.

Done, what about you?

The subject is whether homosexuals are "forcing the Church to accept them." They're not. But Jesus is. Or else you've turned your holier-than-thou back on Him too.

It's in the Gospels

Who's gospels? Yours? If not Please point them out.. I am truly sorry you take so much offense to one that represents God's word rather than the perception of that word. But also know if you are going to pretend to represent that word, then I will unapologetically hold you to producing what you claim.

 

[drich0150]

Accepting homosexuality, and the forcedness of that, is indoctrination. Perhaps you titled the thread wrong and that confuses people.

If all anyone read was the title of this thread and then proceeded to dump page after of page of personal thought into this topic without reading any responses, I could see where you may be correct. I should hope to endeavor to be more selective in my thread titles for now on so I can specifically cater to...

You know what, The thread title is fine the way it is, because it makes people think about their positions and formulate a response, and then the content of the thread also should inspire thought. If you do not wish to think past the title of the thread then maybe you should not be here.

 

[drich0150]

This statement implies that you think the only sin to ever exist is homosexuality.

So in your economy it is ok to have one sin that can be taught from a position of permissibility.. Now what if the bible does not support your forgone conclusions? Do we simply change the bible? Now what about adulterers, are their needs any less valid that the needs of the Homosexual. If we changed the bible for them, then why not for the adulterers? And on and on and on...

There's all sorts of sin out there that isn't based on faulty translations to be forgiven from, a man-made sin based on faulty translations and misinterpretations and projecting 21st century knowledge onto 1st century authors of Scripture isn't really necessary to still need forgiveness.

I have shown time and time again that Identifying Homosexuality as a sin has nothing to do with what any of you has deemed as a "faulty translation." Why do you people continually return to this dry well? At best, your efforts only silence the bible as to what it directly says about homosexuality, it does not give permission for it. Especially in light of the scriptures i have provided that point to the sinful nature of this act.

There's inhospitality, greed, lust (which does apply to both the homosexual and heterosexual, as all sins do), lying, hatred, murder (which hatred is, according to Christ), idolatry (which can be as severe as worshiping Baal, or as "minor" as putting money above God--we think of it as minor because we don't consider ourselves to be doing it even when we are, because sin is sneaky that way), and so on. There's judging someone else's speck before removing your own plank. All sorts of things.

All sin deserves and will receive the same hell. So in reality their is no point of "grading" sin.

You may say that if you accept homosexuality then you must accept everything, because it's an all-or-nothing issue. If that is your faith, I won't remain here as a stumbling block for you. But some of us are able to examine our faith and take a close, hard look at the different facets of it, and then remove what ultimately needs removed based on our understanding, and keep what needs kept, never having to forsake the entire Bible to change something, because it's our understanding the Bible that changes. In other words, we don't change God and don't say God has changed (well, I don't, though some might... let me be clear on that).

Do you not understand that neither you or the church you worship at has the ability to set the sin standard? That you do not have the authority to simply repeal a sin if it does not fit in your liking? Do you not also understand that you are Misrepresenting God with your words and actions? Does this not concern you?

Of course, there are stories where prayer is shown to have caused God to change God's mind (Moses praying to God to not wipe the Israelites off the map comes to mind). But anyway, it is our understanding of the Bible that changes. It's not just doing away with things because we don't like it. If I were going to do that, to be honest, I would do away with condemnation of lust as adultery. There's lots of times I find myself either lusting of coming close to it, and I'd like to just go ahead and do that (and I have fallen and looked at sites I shouldn't, to be honest and confessional here), but I still understand that to be sin.

I do not understand homosexuality to be a sin,

How can you accept one (Lust and fornication) to be a sin and not the other? Do you not realize that Homosexual sex is still sex? That a Homosexual lust is still lust? If these are true, then you must know that there is not a sanctified context in which a gay couple can have sex before God. Meaning they can not be sanctified through marriage then all gay sex is indeed a sin. Now note I did not use any mistranslations to come to that conclusion. their is no way around this sin whether we like it or not. Homosexuality is a sin, one like any other. It needs to find Forgiveness through repentance.

except the kind being addressed in the Bible, where people who had wives were engaging in homosexual sex (people were sold to each other as husband and wife before they could make any real decision for themselves the way they do today, in most cases)., either through ritualistic orgies or to degrade their fellow man in an act of forcing that man into the woman's position, essentially raping them. Committed, lifelong relationships of a homosexual nature were not being thought of or discussed, so there is no prohibition of them in mind, as I understand it. And since there is no prohibition of them in mind in the written Scriptures (again, as I understand it), I can make no prohibition either.

Again note I formulated that homosexuality was a sin by not using any of the verses you used to put together this paragraph. now what say you?

You don't like that, you don't have to. I'm not now, nor ever, going to force you to my position. But just know that my position doesn't come from mere whims and likes and dislikes. That's all I really ask

Then Please show us where it does come from.. Do You Have BOOK, CHAPTER, AND VERSE. Or does your doctrine come from the mind of another person?

 

[[serious]]

Why is there a need for liberally minded people to have God or The Whole of Christianity to accept Homosexuality?

Gay Christians may seek to have christianity accept them. secular gays generally just want equality.

Why not just be Gay, and shrug off what the bible or church says?

Many do

Why do we have to believe what you believe?

arguing your opinion and trying to convince others of your view is pretty natural. I see no reason why they would not.

For those of you in the Church, do you not understand that even if you can silence what the bible says of homosexuality specifically. that Homosexuality is still considered a sin because at it's core it's sex outside the confines of marriage. Without Book Chapter and verse as to the permissibility of sexual activity outside the confines of a sanctified marriage, special permission for gay sex, or an example of a sanctified same sex marriage. a doctrine that permits homosexuality can not represent the will of God. As a member of the church why do you represent a doctrine that does not represent God? To Whom do you serve if not God? Do you not see a problem with a system of belief that doesn't represent the one you claim to represent? Is a righteousness based in popular morality what you believe to be what dictates the will of God?

Homosexuals have no legally recognized marriage in most of the country, but they still have marriage ceremonies. So let me turn the question around on you. If you live in a country where Christians are forbidden to marry, but you have whatever ceremonies your denomination uses for marriage, are you married in the eyes of God?

 

[drich0150]

Gay Christians may seek to have Christianity accept them. secular gays generally just want equality. Many do arguing your opinion and trying to convince others of your view is pretty natural. I see no reason why they would not. Homosexuals have no legally recognized marriage in most of the country, but they still have marriage ceremonies. So let me turn the question around on you. If you live in a country where Christians are forbidden to marry, but you have whatever ceremonies your denomination uses for marriage, are you married in the eyes of God?

Why wouldn't you be married? In the original covenant between man, woman and God. "government" was not apart of the equation. Even in the new covenant a Governmental stamp of approval is not apart of that requirement. God has defined marriage in scripture. so long as your marriage meets these requirements then you are indeed married before God. Remember is it not a ceremony, or a certificate that makes a marriage it is a pledge between one man and one woman, before God, and witnesses of the pledge that makes a marriage.

The Government can only authorize civil unions. If they wish to call it a marriage then they are free to do so, but know that a civil union does not a sanctified marriage make.

 

[[serious]]

Why wouldn't you be married? In the original covenant between man, woman and God. "government" was not apart of the equation. Even in the new covenant a Governmental stamp of approval is not apart of that requirement. God has defined marriage in scripture. so long as your marriage meets these requirements then you are indeed married before God. Remember is it not a ceremony, or a certificate that makes a marriage it is a pledge between one man and one woman, before God, and witnesses of the pledge that makes a marriage.

The Government can only authorize civil unions. If they wish to call it a marriage then they are free to do so, but know that a civil union does not a sanctified marriage make.

Ok, so if the government is irrelevant, let's take the next step. If two atheists are married by a judge (or in a non christian ceremony), then convert to Christianity, are they considered married before God?

Again, almost no one would deny that they are still married. Now, if government doesn't need to be involved, and a church doesn't need to be involved, let's turn back to your earlier question. Ignoring the issue of whether homosexuality is in itself a sin, is it, by definition, fornication because it happens outside of marriage. The answer to that is simple, not if they get married.

 

[nChrist]

Regardless of marriage or civil union, homosexual acts are an abomination in the eyes of God.

 

[drich0150]

Ok, so if the government is irrelevant, let's take the next step. If two atheists are married by a judge (or in a non Christian ceremony), then convert to Christianity, are they considered married before God?

Again, almost no one would deny that they are still married. Now, if government doesn't need to be involved, and a church doesn't need to be involved, let's turn back to your earlier question. Ignoring the issue of whether homosexuality is in itself a sin, is it, by definition, fornication because it happens outside of marriage. The answer to that is simple, not if they get married.

As I said in an earlier post to you, neither a certificate, nor a certain ceremony makes or defines a sanctified marriage before God. If the couple meets the requirements then they are married before God no matter what type of ceremony they decide to have. Homosexual couples cannot meet the requirements for a sanctified marriage. If you believe that they do, and can please provide us with the scripture to back this assertion. We need to see a context where God sanctifies a same sex relationship in the covenant of marriage. Otherwise know a "civil union" is not a sanctified marriage before God. Also know Any state sponsored or sanctioned wedding is at best a civil union. That is not to say one cannot be married before God in the state wedding. All one has to do is meet the requirements before God.

Your argument seems to put all of it's legitimacy in the ceremony itself. Know that the blessing of God is not obligated to just anyone who wants to call a civil union a marriage. Without Book Chapter and verse to back your assertion up, it can be quickly dismissed as wishful thinking.

 

[[serious]]

As I said in an earlier post to you, neither a certificate, nor a certain ceremony makes or defines a sanctified marriage before God. If the couple meets the requirements then they are married before God no matter what type of ceremony they decide to have. Homosexual couples cannot meet the requirements for a sanctified marriage. If you believe that they do, and can please provide us with the scripture to back this assertion. We need to see a context where God sanctifies a same sex relationship in the covenant of marriage. Otherwise know a "civil union" is not a sanctified marriage before God. Also know Any state sponsored or sanctioned wedding is at best a civil union. That is not to say one cannot be married before God in the state wedding. All one has to do is meet the requirements before God.

Your argument seems to put all of it's legitimacy in the ceremony itself. Know that the blessing of God is not obligated to just anyone who wants to call a civil union a marriage. Without Book Chapter and verse to back your assertion up, it can be quickly dismissed as wishful thinking.

OK, spell out the requirements then. If they are specified in the Bible, please cite.

EDIT: if you've already provided this earlier in the thread, a link to the post will be fine.

 

[Jase]

Regardless of marriage or civil union, homosexual acts are an abomination in the eyes of God.

Says you. The original scripture disagrees. Btw, there is no such thing as "abomination" in the Bible. To'evah means "taboo" or "ritually impure", both of which have drastically different interpretations than "abomination".

 

[drich0150]

OK, spell out the requirements then. If they are specified in the Bible, please cite.

EDIT: if you've already provided this earlier in the thread, a link to the post will be fine.

This was taken from Gotquestions.org My version has been lost to the endless pages on this topic

In the first few chapters of Genesis, God fills the earth with large numbers of different kinds of life. He doesn't just put a few fish in the ocean; it "abounds" with them. But when it comes to mankind, He makes just one male and one female, and those two were to become "one flesh." The implication from Genesis 2:24 is that this "one woman for one man for one lifetime" was a principle not just for Adam and Eve but for all who would be born to a father and mother. Jesus commented on this Genesis passage when the Jewish leaders brought up the topic of divorce: "But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate”" (Mark 10:6-9).

Marriage is the union of a man and a woman, creating a new entity, a new “whole” (one flesh). This union is brought about by a mutual commitment before God (expressed through a public vow today) to forsake all others, to keep themselves only unto their new partner, and to act in the best interest of the other (to love), and to seek to fulfill God’s purposes for their lives as a new unit. This commitment is to last as long as they both shall live (1 Corinthians 7:39).

Marriage is not merely a “friendship.” Although it is not the “consummation” that begins the actual marriage (or Joseph and Mary would not have been “married” until after Christ was born (Matthew 1:25), sexual activity is understood to be a natural part of marriage (Exodus 21:10; Hebrews 13:4). Today, the exchanging of the vows during a wedding ceremony is the vocalization of the commitment that was understood between biblical couples such as Isaac and Rebekah in Genesis 24:67.

Some of God’s purposes for marriage as stated in the Bible are companionship (Genesis 2:18), procreation (Genesis 1:28), mutual and undefiled pleasure (1 Corinthians 7:4-5; Proverbs 5:18-19; Song of Solomon; Hebrews 13:4), prevention of immorality (1 Corinthians 7:2,5), the serving of Christ as a whole and properly representing the spiritual relationship between Christ and the Church (Ephesians 5:22-33), and the raising of godly descendants (Malachi 2:13-16). The bond of marriage (when respected) leads to the good of not only the couple and their children, but also to the good of the society as a whole, for the family unit is the building block of any society.

 

[drich0150]

Says you. The original scripture disagrees.

Says you. I have shown you where scripture point to the sin found in homosexuality. That have nothing to do with your favorite five, and yet you best response is to ignore me..