Forcing Morality!!! Yea!

[trivista]

what does this accomplish? is this a religious thing for you?

SoF wishes to be dictator of the entire planet.

 

[Wednesday]

Yes! We force morality on you every day!

No you don't You just rant, rave and copy-paste bible. I'd like to see you try though

Stop talking about it, do something already, entertain me.

 

[StarCannon]

Again: *yawn*

 

[trivista]

Please please tell me you realize what you have just said...

Namely that hanging someone for Murder is murder itself. Which you claim is a sin. So then the person who hanged the murderer has to be hung himself for murder, and where does it end?

I hope you have a solid justification for what you are implying.

SoF appears to honestly believe that the State can do now wrong.

After all how many people have Nation States killed compared to the number of people killed by Evolutionists?

 

[FadingWhispers3]

Forcing morality is ineffectual at best and harmful at worst. A society that forces morality, even if the morality forced is beneficial, encourages a culture where mistake is unacceptable. Where mistakes are discouraged, personal responsibility is destroyed.

The result is that you will have people who no longer believe in doing what is moral because they themselves desire it. This is a very dangerous thing. Few things can be as degenerate as supporting the notion that good should only be done when someone is watching. A people bred on such a system will fall into chaos without their appointed idols.

The second consequence of forcing morality is that it cannot be done except through a governing body having lots of information about it's citizenry. But big government is an amoral or even immoral beast that serves no one... least of all any standard of morality. Worse still, who controls the forceful arm of government cannot be guaranteed. When the purpose falls away, the power remains open for malicious persons to take control.

Thirdly, it legitimizes fiat rule rather than civilized discourse. It justifies the use of force to obtain what is desirable. The problem is that force is blind. The very people who want to enforce morality may not realize that in doing so, they encourage their opposition to use force against *them*.

Forcing morality serves no purpose except to subjugate a people and debase their morality.

 

[Bombila]

SoF appears obsessed with capital punishment. He often refers to it, as well as to everybody except him and his closest buddies burning in Hell.

I'm frankly just as glad I live in another country.

One that doesn't have the death penalty.

 

[TheNewAge]

People like Shield of Faith, who fixate themselves upon dogma and the enforcement of God's rules (as opposed to those Christians who focus upon the philosophy and good aspects of their religion),do not realize that they do more to make God seem petty, trivial, and unworthy of anyone's worship, than any evil atheist can ever hope to do in a lifetime of discourse and analysis...

 

[PetersKeys]

And since the laws making sodomy illegal were struck down, I guess that makes in moral, then? That seems to be what you are saying, SoF. What about abortion? It is legal, yet you seem to find it immoral.

Logic is not a strong suit of yours, is it?

You realize abortion is illegal in many other countrys. And the U.S law isn't a universal moral standard. Abortion by mere conscious is immoral(by looking at it you know in your mind its wrong). Abortion is the only act where the person being killed has no trial. It is the only act where you are guaranteed of murdering an innocent soul that has commited no crime, only the crime of "existing". What does the law say about death without trial?

U.S. Constitution.
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America,"

Amendment V: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."


Tell me, where is due process for those unborn children sentenced to death while still in the womb?

 

[IzzyPop]

You realize abortion is illegal in many other countrys. And the U.S law isn't a universal moral standard. Abortion by mere conscious is immoral(by looking at it you know in your mind its wrong). Abortion is the only act where the person being killed has no trial. It is the only act where you are guaranteed of murdering an innocent soul that has commited no crime, only the crime of "existing". What does the law say about death without trial?

U.S. Constitution.
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America,"

Amendment V: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."


Tell me, where is due process for those unborn children sentenced to death while still in the womb?

I am not arguing the morality of these in and of themselves, rather I am pointing out the discrepancy in the logic used here.

 

[Washington]

deleted

 

[Washington]

You realize abortion is illegal in many other countrys. And the U.S law isn't a universal moral standard. Abortion by mere conscious is immoral(by looking at it you know in your mind its wrong). Abortion is the only act where the person being killed has no trial. It is the only act where you are guaranteed of murdering an innocent soul that has commited no crime, only the crime of "existing". What does the law say about death without trial?
U.S. Constitution.
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America,"
Amendment V: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Tell me, where is due process for those unborn children sentenced to death while still in the womb?

Obviously those who interpret the Constitution and get to decide what it means---the United States Supreme Court---disagrees with you. So it doesn't matter what YOU may think is relevant, the court decided it isn't. You're tilting at windmills.

 

[peter22]

It is a right and wrong thing. It is good and right to force morality on evil.

Murderers need to have morality forced upon them. We as a community have deemed murder wrong and evil. We force you not to do it. If you do do it; we hang you by the neck until dead.

SOLA GRATIA.

You say that "we as a community have deemed that murder is wrong". So you're arguing for subjective morality are you?

 

[wanderingone]

You realize abortion is illegal in many other countrys. And the U.S law isn't a universal moral standard. Abortion by mere conscious is immoral

Umm.. I think this was izzy pop's point, that if law creates the morality than all that is legal is moral all that is illegal is not. Obviously laws don't create individual morality.

 

[wanderingone]

It is a right and wrong thing. It is good and right to force morality on evil.

Murderers need to have morality forced upon them. We as a community have deemed murder wrong and evil. We force you not to do it. If you do do it; we hang you by the neck until dead.

SOLA GRATIA.

"we" who... we do not hang murderers by the neck until dead in NY. Murderers don't become "moral" by virtue of prosecution and imprisonment, their act is determined to be dangerous to thier community- they can serve their time, be released, and either continue in their ways, or change their ways, but they still may have no moral problem with murder as a means to deal with their hatred, frustration, anger whatever...

 

[Shadowfax503]

Why is it that GOVERNMENT is telling us what is moral and not moral? Isnt that the responsibility of parents?

Maybe if government wasnt so worried about our morals they could focus on what really needs done. Where in the constitution does it give the federal government to power to tell me how to live my life? As long as what I do does not imping upon someone else ,government can and should stay out of my life.

Whats the old saying? You can take a horse to water but you cant force it to drink.

 

[jayem]

What does the law say about death without trial?

Amendment V: No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."


Tell me, where is due process for those unborn children sentenced to death while still in the womb?

The quick answer is that word "person." The Constitution never says that an embryo is a person. And, as the Supreme Court noted in Roe, there was no legal precendent for a fetus to be considered as a person. The court utilized a very strict construction of this point--which is what conservatives supposedly like.

 

[Beanieboy]

It's immoral to get drunk. The bible quotes it over 300 times.
Yet, it's perfectly legal.
You can smoke cigarettes, which harms the body, and kills thousands of people a year. And yet, it's legal.
You have premarital sex, and you won't get arrested.

Morality isn't force, except for harm to another person or theft of possessions.

Other than that, they can't really "force" morality on you. Do you really want a militant task force to walk around, giving you a ticket in a bar because you swore when there was a fumble?

I'm unsure why you take God's gift of free will, and toss it away to gain total control. I know that you like to think of yourself as a dictartor, but you are more of tator tot.

 

[Gremlins]

The difference between laws against sodomy and laws against murder, is that murder has a tangiably negative affect, and is such a reprehensible act that the murderer needs have their right to free movement restricted in order to preserve others' rights to life. Once they've been judged to no longer be a risk, they get let out.

Sodomy, when it's between consenting adults, has no perceivable negative affect. Furthermore, policing against it is a needless invasion of their right to privacy (whereas, keeping tabs on a suspected murderer is a warranted invasion of that right).

 

[mpok1519]

lol

no

you can't force morality on someone.

if you can, God would have done it to us already.

If abortion is legal, that means its moral?

Hm. Explain that fundie idea to me again? Or is this just foolish dribble?

I think it may be both!

 

[AngelusTenebrae]

Well, you can't really force it. You can influence it, but there's no changing who you are. Ingersoll said it best I think, although it was about religion, but it's still analogous. Basically, if placed under a sword, you'd do what they say and be what they say you should be. But inside, you're the same person you always used to be. The only thing that teaches people to change is consequences and the recognition of such. Without either, there can be no change, and no law or forcing of such by other people changes it.