For those wishing to understand the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms

[YeshuaFan]

Before Pentecost, there is no proof that believers had the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Please provide your proof verses.

And Pentecost, is not the New Testament Timeline. Pentecost happened at a specific time. Let’s follow the conversation and not change the timeline.

If you need me to explain Pentecost let me know.

Jesus told His own Apostles that until that time, the Holy Spirit was with them, but now is coming the time to be in them!

 

[YeshuaFan]

The 120 were born-again ...
BEFORE the staggering events on the day of pentecost.
In Acts 1:15 they are called disciples or believers.
In Acts 2:1 they are called "they" or believers.
... Depending on your Bible version ...
The NLT calls them "believers" in both verses,
which is what they were!

Of course, this means that after their first Spirit baptism
... where they were baptized into the body of Christ
(1 Cor 12:13) ... all of the 120 received their
second Spirit baptism (on the day of pentecost),
which was the baptism with the Holy Spirit
(proven and confirmed by speaking in tongues).

That Pentecost event was a unique, never to be repeated period, as the tongues that came upon them was the sign of the Holy Spirit now bringing the Church into existence!
And since than, ALL saved have the Baptism in Holy Spirit, as that is when brought into the Church and union with Christ, not tongues needed for that!

 

[YeshuaFan]

These are not prrof verses since the indwelling of the Holy Spirit began at Pentecost in the first century church. That is how God did it.

Maybe you don’t understand that for the initial believers of the faith (between their conversion and Pentecost) that they were not immediately given the indwelling Holy Spirit as we are (those who believe after Pentecost) after Pentecost.

1 Cor 12:13 is not about the believers you are referencing in the post. The church in Corinth didn’t even exist at that time.

1 Corinthians was written as a letter from Paul to that specific church in Corinth.

So you can see how you have used this verse out of context.

Second, the other two verses you used Acts 1:15 and Acts 2:1 happened before Pentecost also, so are not proof verses that they (120 ppl) were filled with the indwelling Holy Spirit either.

This is why knowledge and studying the Bible is important. No one can speak truth to others that does not understand and know truth themselves. It is up to us to be diligent and teach ourselves so we do not teach the wrong things to others.

Jesus Himself referenced OT scripture several times saying “Is it not written ...” and “Do you not know ...”. Jesus places importantance on it.

Acts is a historical account of the transition time between Old to new Covenants, so was not given to us in order to get our theology on the person and work of the Holy Spirit, as that would be found in the Epistles!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus told His own Apostles that until that time, the Holy Spirit was with them, but now is coming the time to be in them!

Yup.

 

[BCsenior]

Acts 1:14 - The disciples were praying in the upper room.
Acts 1:15 - They were joined by others (total of 120).
NKJV calls the 120 disciples and brethren.
NLT calls the 120 believers and brothers.
And they all prayed for a replacement for Judas.

Both of my 2 pentecostal/charismatic commentaries
say the 120 were believers (i.e. having the Spirit) ...
and they were praying and waiting for pentecost.

Acts 2:1, NLT "On the day of pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place ..."

These believers had received the first Spirit baptism
and were patiently waiting for the second Spirit baptism.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Acts 1:14 - The disciples were praying in the upper room.
Acts 1:15 - They were joined by others (total of 120).
NKJV calls the 120 disciples and brethren.
NLT calls the 120 believers and brothers.
And they all prayed for a replacement for Judas.

Both of my 2 pentecostal/charismatic commentaries
say the 120 were believers (i.e. having the Spirit) ...
and they were praying and waiting for pentecost.

Acts 2:1, NLT "On the day of pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place ..."

These believers had received the first Spirit baptism
and were patiently waiting for the second Spirit baptism.

I would drop the denomination specific commentaries.

It’s best to get a well rounded explanation of scripture and even challenge our own beliefs.

IF they are correct, they are correct and will stand in general.

Learn God’s Word on its own. Proof text your own beliefs.

I do it to all my beliefs every 5 years or so. Stacking all your cards in your favor does your own search of God’s Truth no favors.

Beware when they add words in () parentheses. That is to lead you in a direction.

God doesn’t like anyone adding to His Word

 

[Swan7]

Here's an interesting question ...
When a very simple statement in Scripture is read,
does a person need to receive revelation from God
as to what it means, or should they be able to understand its' meaning just simply from the English?

Yes, we need revelation from God when reading His Word as not everything is to be read on surface level.

The only tongues the OP talks about is ...
when confirming one's receiving of
the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
(It is confirming evidence to the person
and to whomever is also present.)

Now for a whole different situation ...
Only for those having the GIFT of tongues (1 Cor 12)
... there are 2 other instances when tongues occur:
(1) when praying to God privately
(2) when in a church meeting

Thanks, but I was referring to those who were generalizing the Pentecostal church. I understand how tongues are supposed to work as per what the Bible says.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Acts 1:14 - The disciples were praying in the upper room.
Acts 1:15 - They were joined by others (total of 120).
NKJV calls the 120 disciples and brethren.
NLT calls the 120 believers and brothers.
And they all prayed for a replacement for Judas.

Both of my 2 pentecostal/charismatic commentaries
say the 120 were believers (i.e. having the Spirit) ...
and they were praying and waiting for pentecost.

Acts 2:1, NLT "On the day of pentecost all the believers were meeting together in one place ..."

These believers had received the first Spirit baptism
and were patiently waiting for the second Spirit baptism.

Pentacost was when the Holy Spirit actually birthed the NT church into existence, so the only Baptism in the Holy Spirit is now when every believer at conversion is placed by the Spirit into spiritual union with Jesus and into the Body!

 

[YeshuaFan]

I would drop the denomination specific commentaries.

It’s best to get a well rounded explanation of scripture and even challenge our own beliefs.

IF they are correct, they are correct and will stand in general.

Learn God’s Word on its own. Proof text your own beliefs.

I do it to all my beliefs every 5 years or so. Stacking all your cards in your favor does your own search of God’s Truth no favors.

Beware when they add words in () parentheses. That is to lead you in a direction.

God doesn’t like anyone adding to His Word

Charismatics and Pentecostals forced feed their theology into the Bible, I know, as a teaching Elder in the Aog once did that myself!

 

[YeshuaFan]

I don’t know that they had the permenant, indwelling Holy Spirit before Pentecost

Thewre was no Church in the actual functioning sense until Pentecost!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Charismatics and Pentecostals forced feed their theology into the Bible, I know, as a teaching Elder in the Aog once did that myself!

I know and agree.

But my argument to the poster was that we do not take our theology or a denominations theology and prove it true. We take God's Word and prove what is true, and then that becomes our theology.

The point to the previous poster is that a denominational commentary is going to push the denominational teaching. That is not how we evaluate the Bible, with a slant.

God calls us to seek Truth as our Father in heaven is Truth.

Truth is not found by not evaluating the Bible on it's own merits.

 

[servantofiam]

As for speaking in tongues, which Pentecostals make a big deal about, Paul also says, "Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" 1Cor 12:30 Tongues is not the exalted gift (by the way, easily faked) which Pentecostals make it out to be in comparison to other gifts. Nor does having other spiritual gifts dependent upon having tongues.

Hmmm, Maybe the churches you have attended never reached the point where God literally is in control. Maybe you yourself have never let go and been completely lost in the presence of God. Maybe you lack understanding. But I can assure you this much, when it is just you and God and you give God the freedom to control the situation, the power of God that is evident and becomes exemplified is the most beautiful experience you will ever encounter. And when you are face to face with God in the spirit, the utterance of God's Holy language is something no one can control.

But I also was fortunate to have been a part of real biblical foundations led by my Grandfather (evangelist -biblical scholar -teacher -presbyter) and my Father who would wisely wait upon the Lord, not force the issue. They had the discernment to understand what was happening. They were the kind of men you called at 3 a.m. for prayer, to come to the hospital, to meet at the morgue, to counsel the situation when everything looked hopeless. It's a big difference when your pastors are actual "live wires," not reading from a script in a polished political mannerism. They lived by faith and allowed God to intervene at any given time.

Today's churches have no clue what the true power of God is. They read the Bible and try to reason that it did not actually happen that way. But Christ commanded we have the simple faith of a child. And when you can achieve that point, that is when God takes over. And when God takes over, you are not controlling anything, including speaking in tongues!!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Today's churches have no clue what the true power of God is. They read the Bible and try to reason that it did not actually happen that way. But Christ commanded we have the simple faith of a child. And when you can achieve that point, that is when God takes over. And when God takes over, you are not controlling anything, including speaking in tongues!!

Maybe you have no idea what the true power of God is.

God in His Word it says God’s Glory was revealed in His Son. The POWER of Jesus Christ.

The POWER of the Father who loves us enough to send His Own Son, God Himself to reconcile sinful mankind back to God. So we can spend eternity with God.

The POWER of the Holy Spirit indwelling each believer.

Why don’t you get real detailed on all the POWER of God that we are missing.

And the power you say you have. Where is that from?

 

[servantofiam]

Maybe you have no idea what the true power of God is.

God in His Word it says God’s Glory was revealed in His Son. The POWER of Jesus Christ.

The POWER of the Father who loves us enough to send His Own Son, God Himself to reconcile sinful mankind back to God. So we can spend eternity with God.

The POWER of the Holy Spirit indwelling each believer.

Why don’t you get real detailed on all the POWER of God that we are missing.

And the power you say you have. Where is that from?

Yes, to witness the dead being brought back to life, to see the impossible become the reality, to have to live by faith in circumstances you stupidly find yourself involved in, to know that you know that you know.

God instructed us to put God to the test in every situation. Not to test God as in fleecing the Spirit, but to give the situation to God to see Him get the glory by bringing you through the impossible. But we must learn/train ourselves to be that obedient to give the situation to God. Everything that God wants to do for us is always for His glory. It's why we are the examples (or light) to this dark world. And those who shine the brightest, are the ones who allow God to get the glory, because they are the ones giving the situations to God.

Ask, knock, seek...those are references in order to put God to the test. And God instructed us to obey these very requests. Because in them all (ask-seek-knock), is the approach to giving God the opportunity to come through for us. The opportunity to show being dependent upon God is the wise decision we can ever make. The opportunity to allow our light to shine in His glory.

I therefore would claim that being older has its benefits when discussing scripture. Because being older means more opportunities to put God to the test. More experiences of knowing God will see us through. More chances to share the small victories to others. More times doing as God commanded us to be a witness and testimony unto Him.

If God is not bringing you through the fire, it means you only know God on the surface. To walk with God, is to be intimate with God. To be intimate with God, is by putting Him to the test to bring you through the trial!!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, to witness the dead being brought back to life, to see the impossible become the reality, to have to live by faith in circumstances you stupidly find yourself involved in, to know that you know that you

I’m sorry but those examples IMHO are not a huge challenge to faith.

Faith is not described by God as believing in a miracle. Faith is walking in faith that God is in control and that His will is done through us even when it’s not good for us.

God’s will is not what I personally desire and it may not be personally beneficial to me, as an individual. But in faith, we pray that God’s will be done OVER my will. What is best or in my personal best interest.

If the things you describe are a huge faith leap for you, I would re-evaluate how you look at and understand faith.

Jesus said, “they will hate you because they hate me. “

Jesus said, “pick up your cross”.

Whatever cake walk you think faith is, your just on the tip of the iceberg.

Faith also includes praise and thanksgiving. Not praise for a hard situation but praise and Thanksgiving for what we HAVE BEEN given.

Faith in the moment is fleeting and comes during good times and goes during hard times.

A good study of faith may help you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God instructed us to put God to the test in every situation. Not to test God as in fleecing the Spirit, but to give the situation to God to see Him get the glory by bringing you through the impossible. But we must learn/train ourselves to be that obedient to give the situation to God. Everything that God wants to do for us is always for His glory. It's why we are the examples (or light) to this dark world. And those who shine the brightest, are the ones who allow God to get the glory, because they are the ones giving the situations to God.

Ask, knock, seek...those are references in order to put God to the test. And God instructed us to obey these very requests. Because in them all (ask-seek-knock), is the approach to giving God the opportunity to come through for us. The opportunity to show being dependent upon God is the wise decision we can ever make. The opportunity to allow our light to shine in His!

If you think that God wants us to put Him to the test. Nope.

God tells us NOT to put Him to the test. The seek, find and knock verse you’ve twisted out of context.

To seek is to desire an answer or truth. To knock is to look or to try to find that truth. Ask is to ask God for answers. Prayer, petitioning.

 

[servantofiam]

If you think that God wants us to put Him to the test. Nope.

God tells us NOT to put Him to the test. The seek, find and knock verse you’ve twisted out of context.

To seek is to desire an answer or truth. To knock is to look or to try to find that truth. Ask is to ask God for answers. Prayer, petitioning.

But in every situation we face there is a seek, knock, find scenario God is waiting for us to give to Him. His victories are finding-seeking-knocking for the truth. We ask Him, we find Him, we seek Him and in the end we are given the truth by Him!!

 

[ToBeLoved]

But in every situation we face there is a seek, knock, find scenario God is waiting for us to give to Him. His victories are finding-seeking-knocking for the truth. We ask Him, we find Him, we seek Him and in the end we are given the truth by Him!!

This has nothing to do with gifts of the Spirit.

God choosing to work the miraculous is not what this verse is saying, nor does it address testing God to see if He will perform.

 

[servantofiam]

Everything we experience in our walk with God relates to the Holy Spirit and its gifts. And by putting God to the test to come through is living by faith. If you had no faith you would not give it to God at any time. It takes faith to give problems to God.

Hmmm, you either have bad understanding or just were taught badly. But you cannot give something to God unless you first have faith in God!!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Everything we experience in our walk with God relates to the Holy Spirit and its gifts. And by putting God to the test to come through is living by faith. If you had no faith you would not give it to God at any time. It takes faith to give problems to God.

Hmmm, you either have bad understanding or just were taught badly. But you cannot give something to God unless you first have faith in God!!

I think you should list your Biblical proof texts.

Otherwise it’s just your personal opinion. As much as you like to share your opinion. It doesn’t sway most ppl.