for those who believe in OSAS...

[MoNiCa4316]

Hi, this is a question for anyone who either believes in 'once saved always saved' or understands it well!

I have a friend who is a non denom Protestant. She agrees with OSAS. She believes that:
1. Once we accept Christ, we are saved forever
2. No matter how much we sin after this, we would still go to heaven
3. why? cause future sin is already forgiven

my disagreement: future sin is atoned for, but we have to accept the forgiveness, or it won't be applied to us; cause God wouldn't force us into heaven

One day, we were having a conversation and started discussing this topic.. I'm a Catholic and I believe that we can lose our salvation, in fact I don't believe that salvation is just something that happened to us in the past, but that we 'were saved, are being saved, and hope to be saved'. It's a life long journey of repentance, faith, growing in love for God, etc. In the end we are saved by grace, but it's a matter of perseverence.

Well I asked my friend, if you're a Christian, and 'born again', and you sin and don't repent, would you still go to heaven?

She said that it seems so.

And this is what I'm lost about.
I didn't have enough time to continue the conversation with my friend and ask her the specific reasons she believes this.

But I don't understand.. if someone could explain this idea to me I'd appreciate it..

Let's say someone hurts you, and you take your revenge on them and hurt them back. That's a sin. You don't repent. And when you die, you stand before God to be judged, and He shows you all your sins - including this one. But you say, oh that wasn't a sin, cause that person deserved it! Would God still let you into Heaven? why, why not? But didn't you just REJECT His grace and forgiveness, by not repenting? If you reject forgiveness, isn't that like rejecting Christ? So how could you still be saved, even though you believe that Christ is the Son of God?

any thoughts? I'm not here just to debate, I already explained by view in this post.. I'm just wondering how OSAS could be explained in this context? What did my friend mean? (I'm planning to ask her one of these days, but if you were saying the same thing, what would you mean?)

 

[Jesusmyfriend]

Once Jesus really saves you then you are really saved. Otherwise you might end up being one of those who say to Jesus, "DIDN"T WE TEACH, PREACH in your name"

The key to understand here is they pointed to their work "DIDN'T WE, OR DIDN'T I?" The point is their flesh was boasting as if their preaching some how earned them a right to heaven.

And Jesus replies to some and says "depart from me you evil doers for I never knew you.

 

[BrotherDave]

Hi, this is a question for anyone who either believes in 'once saved always saved' or understands it well!

But I don't understand.. if someone could explain this idea to me I'd appreciate it.

Hello MoNiCa4316,

You’ll have to put aside the Catholic doctrine you have been taught to understand this.

The Bible teaches that once God saves a person that person has been given a new resurrected soul (John 3:3) that has eternal life (John 10:27-28). Eternal life means no death. So it is impossible to lose God’s salvation. But, someone that God has truly saved will not want to sin (1 John 3:6-9). He has been given a new soul which hates sin. The problem is his physical body will continue lusting after sin (Ro 8:10) until he dies or until the “rapture” when all true believers receive their glorified bodies (1 Corinth15:40-4). So there is an internal battle going on in the life of believer, should he fall into sin he should feel terrible and beg God for forgiveness and strength to turn from it. God may send chastisement to correct the person but that person will not lose his salvation. Once saved, a person should find increasing desire to turn away from lifestyles that used to bring pleasure and an increasing love of the gospel.

Think about how Paul’s attitude and life was changed by God. It’s the same deal for a believer today. God chose to save that person, gives him a new soul, and opens his understanding all of which then results in repentance, faith, good works and tribulation.

Now you wrote that “in the end we are saved by grace” and that is absolutely correct. It is entirely up to God. We cannot do anything to get on his good side. In fact God calls us dead in our sins (Col 2:13) and wicked from the womb(Ps 58:3) so it is impossible to do good on our own. He chooses to save those he intends (John 15:16, Eph 1:4-13)) and saves them precisely when he intends to. Just like we have no choice to be born into this world, we have no choice to be born into the kingdom of God. Once he saves someone, there is no falling back. Jesus paid for all the sins of his elect. Past present and future (Col2:12-15). If truly saved though future sins should be drastically reduced.

Those who try to live and keep the law die by the law. Our best work is as filthy rags (Is 64:6) so works cannot contribute to our salvation. We cannot choose, accept, believe, repent or even have faith because they are all work we do.

Let's say someone hurts you, and you take your revenge on them and hurt them back. That's a sin. You don't repent. And when you die, you stand before God to be judged, and He shows you all your sins - including this one. But you say, oh that wasn't a sin, cause that person deserved it! Would God still let you into Heaven? why, why not? But didn't you just REJECT His grace and forgiveness, by not repenting? If you reject forgiveness, isn't that like rejecting Christ? So how could you still be saved, even though you believe that Christ is the Son of God?

In your example, a saved person would not have taken revenge but would have turned to God for help in dealing with the hurt and forgiving the other person who did them harm.

Hope this helps.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

hi, thanks for your reply..
that answers some of my questions..
see I used to be a non denom. Protestant myself but there are parts of OSAS that I never really understood.

So I'm guessing that you believe in OSAS..
you said that a person who has been 'born again' WOULD always repent of sin, and so would not ever die in unrepentance. Well I agree to an extent that it's not very easy to leave God, He gives us lots of chances, and if there was even a moment when we knew Him in the past, He would use that to bring us back after we have sinned.

But what is your perspective on the passages in the Bible that talk about perseverance? For example, "those who persevere till the end shall be saved".. or - Jesus' parable about the different types of seeds. Some fall on rocky ground, some among thorns, etc. You probably know what I'm talking about. There was an example there about people who HAVE accepted the Gospel, but then after some time return back to sin because the worries of this life, or riches, etc, prevented the 'seed' from 'growing'.

would you say that this goes against OSAS at all?

just wondering! cause that's the part I always had some trouble with. I've known people who were very strong Christians and went around sharing their faith, worshipping, praying, and then...fell away..and lost faith, became atheists. The Bible talks about this too. Would you say that they are still saved? Or not?

I also wanted to quickly comment on this:

Those who try to live and keep the law die by the law. Our best work is as filthy rags (Is 64:6) so works cannot contribute to our salvation. We cannot choose, accept, believe, repent or even have faith because they are all work we do.

I believe that there are two types of works, one type is done under grace, and one without grace. Good works without grace can't contribute to our salvation. But if we try to follow God in our actions out of sincere love for Him, with faith, and enabled by His grace, this helps us grow so that we would persevere better in faith...and since we'll persevere, we'll be saved in the end and not fall away. So in this way, works under grace do contribute to salvation, but not because you're earning salvation, rather because you're growing through collaborating with God's grace.. (not rebelling against it)
cause Jesus said, "if you love Me, you will keep My commands"
and "faith without works is dead"


God bless

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Once Jesus really saves you then you are really saved. Otherwise you might end up being one of those who say to Jesus, "DIDN"T WE TEACH, PREACH in your name"

The key to understand here is they pointed to their work "DIDN'T WE, OR DIDN'T I?" The point is their flesh was boasting as if their preaching some how earned them a right to heaven.

And Jesus replies to some and says "depart from me you evil doers for I never knew you.

thanks for the reply..
hmm I guess I view those passages differently, cause in another part Jesus tells those who are saved that they'll go to heaven because they have cared for the sick, fed the hungry, etc. Because when we do this to others, we do it to Him. The difference with these "evil doers" seems to be that their intentions were all wrong; they had all these works but they had no love.. if you look at their works, it's all about prophesying and casting out demons, but never serving others in His name. So..that's just how I look at it. thanks for providing the other perspective.
God bless

 

[BrotherDave]

you said that a person who has been 'born again' WOULD always repent of sin, and so would not ever die in unrepentance.

Someone whom God has saved has been given a new soul with eternal life the instant (“twinkling of an eye”) God saved him because Christ paid for all his sins. So in his soul God no longer holds this individual accountable for any sin he may fall in to. This person becomes a slave of righteousness (Ro6:18) no longer accountable to the law (Ro 10:14). Now should a saved person fall he will immediately acknowledge the sin and will beg God forgiveness just as David did after he gave into the desires of his flesh. This heart felt repentance even over a “small” sin is the measure of ones love for God.

But what is your perspective on the passages in the Bible that talk about perseverance? For example, "those who persevere till the end shall be saved".. or - Jesus' parable about the different types of seeds.

The only ones who will persevere are the ones God first saves. If He does not change a person then that person will not persevere. The saved person will be victorious in the tribulations in his life and when he dies or is raptured he will enter into the kingdom of God and be saved from God’s wrath.

would you say that this goes against OSAS at all?

Not at all. If it did I would have to re-evaluate my understanding because I firmly believe there are no contradictions in the Bible (KJV). If we hold a belief that does not square with the entire bible then we had better check and recheck what we believe (Gal 6:4, I Thess 5:17). Above all we must never just ignore a verse because it doesn’t fit our understanding (Ro 3:4). There’s only one true gospel from God (Gal 1:9, Eph 4:14). The gospel of grace alone. He does all the work. Most do not like this because it takes us out of the picture. We all like to be in control of our life. But ask yourself this, if God tells us in so many places that we are wicked (Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23) and do not seek him (Psalm 10:4) and are dead in sin (Col 2:13, Psalm 14:3, Ecc 7:20, Gal 3:22) then how is it possible we could ever choose to accept him on his terms? And would Jesus really die for a specific number of sins in the hopes that a sin cursed person would choose to do what is right? I’ll put my trust in the Lord over my abilities any day.

We are all so bad in God’s eyes that out of his love and mercy He decided to reach down and grab a bunch of us and pull us out from the fire of his wrath. Lot is a good picture of how God saves his people. Once he saves us our fate is sealed.

I've known people who were very strong Christians and went around sharing their faith, worshipping, praying, and then...fell away..and lost faith, became atheists. The Bible talks about this too. Would you say that they are still saved? Or not?

Only the Lord knows for sure, but I'd say they were never really saved in the first place (seed did not take root). Probably just believed what they were told or like the idea. The good news is today salvation is still available so maybe God will work in them.

I also wanted to quickly comment on this:
I believe that there are two types of works, one type is done under grace, and one without grace. Good works without grace can't contribute to our salvation. But if we try to follow God in our actions out of sincere love for Him, with faith, and enabled by His grace, this helps us grow so that we would persevere better in faith...and since we'll persevere, we'll be saved in the end and not fall away. So in this way, works under grace do contribute to salvation, but not because you're earning salvation, rather because you're growing through collaborating with God's grace.. (not rebelling against it)
cause Jesus said, "if you love Me, you will keep My commands"
and "faith without works is dead"


God bless

Well, you said "if we try", this means we are making an effort or working. Our efforts will not contribute a thing. I agree that as a result of His saving grace (first) we will then do the good work of bring the gospel to the world

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Someone whom God has saved has been given a new soul with eternal life the instant (“twinkling of an eye&#8221 God saved him because Christ paid for all his sins.

I agree that a born again person has a new soul, but the "twinkling of an eye" part, that refers to the resurrection of the dead doesn't it? I also agree that Christ has atoned for our sins but this has to be somehow applied to us, and that's where repentance comes in.. otherwise all would be saved. Just making my point more clear

So in his soul God no longer holds this individual accountable for any sin he may fall in to. This person becomes a slave of righteousness (Ro6:18) no longer accountable to the law (Ro

10:14). Now should a saved person fall he will immediately acknowledge the sin and will beg God forgiveness just as David did after he gave into the desires of his flesh. This heart felt repentance even over a “small” sin is the measure of ones love for God.

do you think it is possible for the person to not want to repent?

The only ones who will persevere are the ones God first saves. If He does not change a person then that person will not persevere. The saved person will be victorious in the tribulations in his life and when he dies or is raptured he will enter into the

kingdom of God and be saved from God’s wrath.

are you saying that those who do not persevere were never saved to begin with?

hmm I must say to be honest I have some problems with this view.. I've met people who were struggling with something and were barely holding on to faith, and instead of telling them that this is a trial that God is allowing for their sanctification (if they choose to take it that way), they were told that they were never saved.

what if someone did really love God and had a relationship with Him, but then many years later lost faith, was it all an illusion in his mind? So then how do we know that our relationship with God is not a mere illusion?

sorry I don't want it to sound like I'm just debating you, I just honestly don't really get this.

Also in the Bible, when it says that those who persevere will be saved, it talks about salvation in the future tense.. in fact, in Scripture, all three tenses are used in regards to salvation: the past, the present, and the future. That's why Catholics (and Orthodox) and some others say - "I was saved, I am being saved, and I have the hope of being saved".. meaning: I was born again through baptism, I'm working out my salvation with fear and trembling for it's God who works in me, and I have hope in Christ that He would help me persevere.. but we do have the choice to cooperate, or rebel against grace.. cause even though we have a new soul, we have all our old habits and ways of thinking, and these all must 'die'.. this takes time.

Not at all. If it did I would have to re-evaluate my understanding because I firmly believe there are no contradictions in the Bible (KJV). If we hold a belief that does not square with the entire bible then we had better check and recheck what we believe (Gal 6:4, I Thess

5:17). Above all we must never just ignore a verse because it doesn’t fit our understanding (Ro 3:4).

I agree, well I find that in MANY churches verses get ignored.

There’s only one true gospel from God (Gal 1:9, Eph

4:14). The gospel of grace alone. He does all the work. Most do not like this because it takes us out of the picture. We all like to be in control of our life. But ask yourself this, if God tells us in so many places that we are wicked (Jeremiah 17:9, Mark 7:21-23) and do not seek him (Psalm 10:4) and are dead in sin (Col2:13, Psalm 14:3, Ecc 7:20, Gal 3:22) then how is it possible we could ever choose to accept him on his terms? And would Jesus really die for a specific number of sins in the hopes that a sin cursed person would choose to do what is right? I’ll put my trust in the Lord over my abilities any day.

I don't think this is relevant to what I'm saying.. cause I never argued against grace. (neither does the Catholic church). But since we are conscious beings who make choices, and since God doesn't force us to love Him, that means that loving Him is a choice and an action... it comes from grace, but we have to agree with it, once we choose it (not just once, but every time we have to make a choice between sin and virtue), God gives us more grace to help us put it into actions and takes it the rest of the way.. He takes our weak imperfect efforts the rest of the way. But if the efforts are not there, if we're rebelling against grace by saying 'no' to everything God tells us, well then...He won't force us to follow Him..

We are all so bad in God’s eyes that out of his love and mercy He decided to reach down and grab a bunch of us and pull us out from the fire of his wrath.

Lot is a good picture of how God saves his people. Once he saves us our fate is sealed.

I believe that God wants to save everyone..not just a bunch? His mercy doesn't have limits.

Only the Lord knows for sure, but I'd say they were never really saved in the first place (seed did not take root). Probably just believed what they were told or like the idea. The good news is today salvation is still available so maybe God will work in them.

oki.. If you look at the parable though, there are those where the seed DID take root, but the thorns were stronger: "Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants".

"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

the way I see this is that in some cases, people DO accept the gospel with joy, but fall away when trials come.. and some also accept it, but fail to bear fruit because they're overwhelmed with worries of life or wealth. It seems to me like these people did accept the gospel, but later lost it - so you might say that they were 'saved' but then lost their 'salvation'. I wouldn't put it that way though, as I don't believe that salvation is instantaneous, but is revealed after death.

Well, you said "if we try", this means we are making an effort or working. Our efforts will not contribute a thing. I agree that as a result of His saving grace (first) we will then do the good work of bring the gospel to the world

I never said that grace doesn't come first. What I meant is that we are not robots

God bless

 

[bling]

Luke 15 has three lost stories that are indicative of three lost situations: 1. is someone that is lost, knows they are lost and does not know the way (the sheep) . 2 is someone that is lost and does not even know they are lost (the coin) 3. is someone that is lost, knows they are lost and knows the way home, but does not want to go home, (the son).
The son is Lost until he comes to His senses and repents by going home. He was a son in good standing but gave up his birth right at least for a while.

I like to use Gal. 6: 7-10 to show the harvest of eternal life can be given up by someone that was previously doing the right thing. Those that are Christians are being warned not to give it up. If they do not give up they will harvest eternal life.

The bigger issue I have is with the objective: I see the human objective is Loving God first and then all humans with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy. The problem is obtain and maintaining the gift of Godly type Love. Godly type Love as defined by scripture (you can find lots of books on agape (Love) to help you) requires a free will moral decision to accept God’s Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin). To take away man’s ability to choose to Love (like God chooses to Love) would also take away that person ability to extend Godly type Love, since it would become a robotic (programmed) type of love. Is there not a huge difference between being Love by someone that can choose not to Love you and being Loved by a robot that did not chose to Love you?

 

[BrotherDave]

I agree that a born again person has a new soul, but the "twinkling of an eye" part, that refers to the resurrection of the dead doesn't it?

Yes it does, but in the same way before we have our new souls our original ones were considered dead by God. He does not give us part of a new soul or fade it in and out. It is given to us 100% in an instant. Our new soul has eternal life (John 6:37, 10:28) because Christ paid for all our sins. Jesus describes this in Luke 5:36-39.

I also agree that Christ has atoned for our sins but this has to be somehow applied to us, and that's where repentance comes in.. otherwise all would be saved. Just making my point more clear

Christ paid for all the sins of his people. This is why they receive a new soul. But it is only applied by God to those God chose before foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-13, II Thess 2:13) after they hear the gospel call (Ro 10:17).

do you think it is possible for the person to not want to repent?

No, a saved individual will always repent. This is because in his new soul he has an intense inner desire to do God’s will. This person does not repent out of fear of God’s wrath or losing his salvation. He repents out of fear of letting God down so to speak because he loves Him so much. A saved person fears sinning and grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30).

are you saying that those who do not persevere were never saved to begin with?

Yup. Everyone that is found guilty did not persevere. They did not persevere because they were not saved by God (never given a new soul). Their names are not in the Lambs Book of Life no matter how good a person may seem to us.

hmm I must say to be honest I have some problems with this view.. I've met people who were struggling with something and were barely holding on to faith, and instead of telling them that this is a trial that God is allowing for their sanctification (if they choose to take it that way), they were told that they were never saved.

God constantly test’s us. Examples of his testing can be seen throughout the Bible. Right at the start He tested Adam and Eve. Sadly too often we fail. A saved person will struggle in this life but will always to turn to God and the bible for strength, forgiveness and understanding. God uses circumstances in a person’s life to either draw that person closer to Himself or prove their unbelief. Its how we deal with our struggles that matter. Do we rely on our own abilities or turn to God and accept his will. It could be that God is chastising a saved individual (never a pleasant thing) to correct him. But he will never turn away from God.

So then how do we know that our relationship with God is not a mere illusion?

We should have a love for the bible, a thirst for truth, oncreading understanding and we should find ourselves naturally keeping his comandments as we turn away from sin.

sorry I don't want it to sound like I'm just debating you, I just honestly don't really get this.

No problem, I am enjoying my time looking things up and trying to explain how I understand this.

Also in the Bible, when it says that those who persevere will be saved, it talks about salvation in the future tense.. in fact, in Scripture, all three tenses are used in regards to salvation: the past, the present, and the future.

That’s correct. What is involved in a person’s salvation? First God had to choose to save that person then Christ had to die for his sins, then at sometime in that persons life he will hear the gospel and God will apply the word to his heart and give him a new soul (then that person loves God and does good works, persevering), then that person will receive his new glorified body (during the “rapture”) and live in the new heaven and new earth with Christ forever.

[/quote]

That's why Catholics (and Orthodox) and some others say - "I was saved, I am being saved, and I have the hope of being saved".. meaning: I was born again through baptism, I'm working out my salvation with fear and trembling for it's God who works in me, and I have hope in Christ that He would help me persevere.. but we do have the choice to cooperate, or rebel against grace.. cause even though we have a new soul, we have all our old habits and ways of thinking, and these all must 'die'.. this takes time.

Yes, but, we are born again through the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) when God gives us a new soul. The act of baptism with water does not mean anything. As I mentioned above fear and trembling means a fear of not doing what God wants. Not the fear of Hell or losing our salvation. Remember our new soul has eternal life (John 6:37). Our future hope is in the resurrection of our bodies and life with Christ in a sinless world.

Before being saved we will not cooperate. After we will. Yes we have our old bodies but as Paul described we struggle against the desires of our bodies. A truly saved person will turn away from old habits that used to bring pleasure. Again remember how Paul was change from a life or persecuting the followers of Christ after God saved him. I believe the older a person is when God saves him the more evident it should be to those around him that that person was saved because he will no longer want to participate in things he used to enjoy, even if there is only “a little sin” involved in the activity. This often causes distancing and losing of friends who love the world (James 4:4).

I don't think this is relevant to what I'm saying.. cause I never argued against grace. (neither does the Catholic church). But since we are conscious beings who make choices, and since God doesn't force us to love Him, that means that loving Him is a choice and an action...

It’s relevant. This is the same problem ancient Israel had. Salvation is by grace alone. You are mixing in works by saying we have to agree and choose. In effect you are saying salvation is in our hands. It depends on what we do. This takes the glory from God (Ex 33:19, Ro 9:15). We cannot change our heart (Ps 20:9).

God chose his elect, saves them and they will do good works as a result of having been saved because they want to. Before He saves someone a person’s choices and actions are driven by a lustful, wicked, stony heart. After salvation, with our new eternally alive soul our actions and decisions are driven by the word of God (I Thess 2:13) out of our new love for the Lord we will keep his commandments as we walk in love (Eph 5:2) and his spirit witnesses with ours and we abstain from our fleshly lusts (1 Peter 2:11). A saved person will hunger and thirst after righteousness (Matt 5:6). So God is not forcing us to follow Him. Before salvation will not follow him the way He commands us to but after we will because we truly want to. As you say we are not robots.

I believe that God wants to save everyone..not just a bunch? His mercy doesn't have limits.

I agree his mercy does not have limits. But he is also the perfect judge (Ps 7:11) He created the human race perfect but we rebelled against Him knowing that the rebellion results in death (Ezekiel 18:20). By rights God does not have to save anyone but out of his mercy he saves some (Is 53:11, 12). Again think about how many were saved when the flood came or when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed or the destruction of Israel and Judah or even when the Egyptian army was destroyed. God only saves those he intends to and he only intends to save those he chose before the foundation of the world (Ro 9:21). The marvelous thing is that anyone can be one of his elect and this is why we spend time in the gospel so he can apply to the word to our hearts if he chooses.

the way I see this is that in some cases, people DO accept the gospel with joy, but fall away when trials come.. and some also accept it, but fail to bear fruit because they're overwhelmed with worries of life or wealth. It seems to me like these people did accept the gospel, but later lost it

Yes you are correct that some will like what they hear and try to adhere to it but again; they trust their abilities and not in God. They believe if they choose to do this or that then they will be saved. It is impossible to obey the gospel without God’s help. His help only comes to those he saves. When one of his elect hears the gospel he will respond and do the work of bringing the gospel to the world so others may hear and be saved if that is God’s will for the one hearing. This is how we are fruitful. Jesus is the root (Rev 22:16) in that parable. When he saves us he is with us (Ro 8:10) and we will grow in grace and be fruitful. We will persevere.

- so you might say that they were 'saved' but then lost their 'salvation'. I wouldn't put it that way though, as I don't believe that salvation is instantaneous, but is revealed after death.

No, they were not saved that is why they fell. Our focus should always be on the Lord and his will. We become overwhelmed when we take our eyes off him. We should accept what we are dealt, knowing everything is for the glory of God and look forward to him providing something better for us if that is his will.

Salvation will be revealed after death (or during the rapture if still alive). Of course then it will too late if not really saved. This is why we are told to study scripture, to prove all things (Gal 6:4, I Thess 5:17) and make sure we hold the truth. If we do not really have a passion for God’s Word and increasing understanding and clarification of it, if we are not more concerned with spiritual matters than with physical then we should be pleading to God for his salvation before our time runs out. We should be doing all we can now to make sure we will not be one of the ones Christ will turn away who really thought they were doing good (Matt 15:8, 25:41, Phil 3:18, 2Tim 4:3…) but they were never really saved.

 

[bling]

Bro Dave said: "For by grace are ye saved through faith (Christ's faith- Gal 2:16); and not of yourselves: it is a gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

Bro Dave, How do you get the faith in Eph. 2:8 has to be Christ’s faith and use (KJV)of Gal. 2:16? The ASV says: Gal.2:16 “yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ…”



Eph. 2:8 has come up many times on this board. There are four things you do not address:

• The grammar does not fit. Faith is feminine and “that” is neuter in that gift. Which has been explained away by showing that in some exceptional situations the gender would not have to match. The question is then: If Paul wanted the people to realize “faith” was the gift he was referring to then the easiest way would be for him to have “that” be feminine?
• The subject that Paul is talking about in these verses is “salvation” and not faith. If “salvation” is the main subject then saying “that” or “it” would naturally be referring to the main subject your talking about. Faith is only being addressed as it is needed for salvation.
• If faith is a free undeserving “gift” from God like salvation, Love, Peace, miraculous gifts, the spirit, etc. Then it should be addressed other times and other places like God’s other gifts are repeatedly referred to.
• We all understand how some people try to work for salvation and that that is contrasted with God giving salvation as a gift. But in the context of Eph. 2:8-9 the gift of “that” is being contrasted with working for “that”. How would you “work” for faith? Faith is the result of not working and starting to rely on God’s grace. Faith is not something conceptually you could even talk about working for. We know what the Pharisees thought you had to work at to earn salvation, but what would you “work” at to earn faith. It is the opposite of trying to earn your trust, so it is earning trusting in the other person?????

You can also address my post #8 when you get a chance.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Hi, this is a question for anyone who either believes in 'once saved always saved' or understands it well!

I have a friend who is a non denom Protestant. She agrees with OSAS. She believes that:
1. Once we accept Christ, we are saved forever
2. No matter how much we sin after this, we would still go to heaven
3. why? cause future sin is already forgiven

my disagreement: future sin is atoned for, but we have to accept the forgiveness, or it won't be applied to us; cause God wouldn't force us into heaven

romans 8:34--39

what saves us.... 2 cor 5:21, romans 4:5 ... God.. not us

One day, we were having a conversation and started discussing this topic.. I'm a Catholic and I believe that we can lose our salvation, in fact I don't believe that salvation is just something that happened to us in the past, but that we 'were saved, are being saved, and hope to be saved'. It's a life long journey of repentance, faith, growing in love for God, etc. In the end we are saved by grace, but it's a matter of perseverence.

that would be works ... titus 3:5, 2 tim 1:9, eph 2:8-9, romans 4:5

Well I asked my friend, if you're a Christian, and 'born again', and you sin and don't repent, would you still go to heaven?

She said that it seems so.

when a believer believe that Jesus is God jn 8:24 and that He died for your sin once and for all was buried for 3 days and arose 1 cor 15:3-4

this is Christ work ... putting us into Christ 1 cor 12:12-13

because of this fact ... 2 tim 2:13 If we are faithless in Christian life , he remains faithful; He cannot deny himself.

We are part of His body... eph 1:22-23

And this is what I'm lost about.
I didn't have enough time to continue the conversation with my friend and ask her the specific reasons she believes this.

But I don't understand.. if someone could explain this idea to me I'd appreciate it..

Let's say someone hurts you, and you take your revenge on them and hurt them back. That's a sin. You don't repent. And when you die, you stand before God to be judged, and He shows you all your sins - including this one. But you say, oh that wasn't a sin, cause that person deserved it! Would God still let you into Heaven? why, why not? But didn't you just REJECT His grace and forgiveness, by not repenting? If you reject forgiveness, isn't that like rejecting Christ? So how could you still be saved, even though you believe that Christ is the Son of God?

there is different judgment times... our will be at the bema seat

1 cor 3:12-15 states are good works will be judged ... why are sins have been forgive once and forall.. heb 10:17

any thoughts? I'm not here just to debate, I already explained by view in this post.. I'm just wondering how OSAS could be explained in this context? What did my friend mean? (I'm planning to ask her one of these days, but if you were saying the same thing, what would you mean?)

In Christ there is peace and you can know that you have eternal life
1 jn 5:11-13

 

[BrotherDave]

Bro Dave, How do you get the faith in Eph. 2:8 has to be Christ’s faith and use (KJV)of Gal. 2:16? The ASV says: Gal.2:16 “yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ…”

Because
1. We are not saved by our work:
Gal 2:16 “man not justified by the works of the law”
Is 64:6 “ …all our righteousness are as filthy rags

2. Faith is a work. 1 Thess 1:3
“…bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love…”

3. Christ is called the faithful one II Thes 3:3 “The lord is faithful”
And we live by His faith Gal 2:20 “I live by the faith of the Son of God”


We read in Gal 2:16 “Knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

So we can understand that the faith referenced in Eph 2:8 can only be the faith of Christ. Eph 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves it is a gift of God.”

The question is then: If Paul wanted the people to realize “faith” was the gift he was referring to then...

Faith is not the gift. Salvation is.
For by grace are ye saved through faith…it (salvation) is a gift of God. We receive the gift because of Christ’s faithfulness.
[/quote]

The subject that Paul is talking about in these verses is “salvation” and not faith. If “salvation” is the main subject then saying “that” or “it” would naturally be referring to the main subject your talking about. Faith is only being addressed as it is needed for salvation.

Yes, “it” is a gift of God is referring to salvation. The faith of Christ was needed for anyone to realize salvation

If faith is a free undeserving “gift” from God ...

Salvation is the undeserving gift. Our faith, good works, understanding, wisdom… are all a result having been given the undeserving gift.

But in the context of Eph. 2:8-9 the gift of “that” is being contrasted with working for “that”. How would you “work” for faith?

In this verse “that” is salvation which we cannot work for or achieve of ourselves. I agree faith is a result. It is a result of God’s grace and His gift of salvation.

[/quote]

You can also address my post #8 when you get a chance.

Ok, I'll do that next - sorry for the delay.

 

[BrotherDave]

Luke 15 has three lost stories that are indicative of three lost situations: 1. is someone that is lost, knows they are lost and does not know the way (the sheep) . 2 is someone that is lost and does not even know they are lost (the coin) 3. is someone that is lost, knows they are lost and knows the way home, but does not want to go home, (the son). The son is Lost until he comes to His senses and repents by going home. He was a son in good standing but gave up his birth right at least for a while.

All three of these parables describe the very same thing, the joy that God has over the salvation of His own.

The story of the sheep matches the teachings in John 10. The elect are the lost sheep whom Jesus (the Shepard) gave his life for so He could give them eternal life – salvation (John 10:28).

In the second parable the elect are represented as a lost coin and the lighted lamp may be
compared to Matt 5:15 or Christ in John 9:5, 12:36. It is through the light of the gospel or Christ that his people are found.

In the story of the lost son the best robe (v22) can be compared with the robe of righteousness (Isa 61:10 ) and “was dead and is alive again” (v24) compared with Eph 2:5 or Col 2:13, dead in sin forgiving all trespasses, quickened together with Christ. The sons of God are the elect who are dead in sin until they are saved and clothed with Christ’s righteousness.

I like to use Gal. 6: 7-10 to show the harvest of eternal life can be given up by someone that was previously doing the right thing. Those that are Christians are being warned not to give it up. If they do not give up they will harvest eternal life.

Those who God has saved will not give up and will experience eternal life. Just because someone appears to be “doing the right thing” does not mean he was ever saved. The proof he was not saved is the fact that he gives up.

The bigger issue I have is with the objective: I see the human objective is Loving God first and then all humans with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.

I agree

The problem is obtain and maintaining the gift of Godly type Love.

Yes, this is the whole problem with mankind. As I said previously mankind does not seek out God (Ps 10:4) with all their heart. We are all wicked (Ps 58:3, Ecc 7:20) and do not have Godly love until He changes our heart at the moment of salvation.

Godly type Love as defined by scripture (you can find lots of books on agape (Love) to help you) requires a free will moral decision to accept God’s Love over likely alternatives (the perceived pleasures of sin).

I agree we have the ability to choose, But before we are saved our choices are driven by a sin cursed heart and mind. Remember Adam and Eve showed our sinful nature when they chose to eat the apple rather than choose what God wanted. Likewise, we may choose to accept Christ and then fall away because our reason for choosing him was wrong (pride, peer pressure, vanity, it’s what I’m supposed to do if I am a good person…) but He never saved us.

Should He choose to save us though we will then choose to follow him and do the good work of sharing the gospel because we now have a righteous heart and we will turn away from the other sinful alternatives because we sincerely want to live for God. It’s not that He is forcing us to do it. In this case Adam and Eve would not have chosen to eat the apple because God did not want them to.

But if they were saved and gave into their fleshly desires then they would have fallen to the ground and pleaded to God for forgiveness and strength to do his will. Rather than try and hide from him and blame someone else for their weakness. The size of the sin does not matter. The reaction of a saved person would be the same. It is because of our intense desire to turn away from all sin and the torment we feel when we fall that a saved individual will keep God’s commands. Not because we are robots. We love because it is what God wants and not just because it is the “right” thing to do.

To take away man’s ability to choose to Love (like God chooses to Love) would also take away that person ability to extend Godly type Love, since it would become a robotic (programmed) type of love.

Godly love is to truly want the very best for another person. The very best is salvation. When we share the gospel we are extending Godly love for through it the hearer may be saved if that is God’s intent. As explained above, the way we make our choice is different for saved Vs unsaved people, though both may appear to be equally “good” their hearts are different.

Is there not a huge difference between being Love by someone that can choose not to Love you and being Loved by a robot that did not chose to Love you?

There is a huge difference. God chooses to love some and chooses not to love others. Those that are loved by Him will be saved and they will acknowledge they had nothing to do with their salvation and rejoice at having been given such an undeserving gift. Here again, we did not choose Him. He chose us (Gal 4:9,Ps 3:8,Ro 9:15,Ex33:19).

 

[Standing Up]

Hi, this is a question for anyone who either believes in 'once saved always saved' or understands it well!

-snip-

Well I asked my friend, if you're a Christian, and 'born again', and you sin and don't repent, would you still go to heaven?

She said that it seems so.

And this is what I'm lost about.
-snip-

Maybe your question goes to your understanding of what some think needs to happen at that point of sin. But here's 1 John 2:2- if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

 

[Light hearted]

MoNiCa431, Do you truely believe God would save you, (send the Holy Spirit to dwell within you) only to have you go through the rest of your life worrying about if you have lost your salvation? Talk about a guilt trip.

Jesus says his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Once saved, your sins of the past, present and future have been paid for.

Yoke, a wooden crossbar linking two animals together. In other words, you are now linked with God-Jesus, through the Holy Spirit. You now begin a change of life, slowly changing to the walk of Jesus.

News for you.... no physical action you can take that will get you saved. It is the abolute belief that Jesus died for your sins. You are fully aware that you are a sinner and you need a savior to bridge the gap betwen you and God.

God created you, God knows you better than you know yourself.

Picture this, God up in heaven, today he saves you, tomorrow you sin, God disconnects you, next day you repent, God resaves you, next day you sin, God disconnects you, and on and on and on.

WE ALL SIN, EVERYDAY. It doesn't matter the size of sin, WE all fall short of a Holy God everyday. Thank God for Jesus. Amen.

If it takes the power of an awesume powerful God to save you, what makes you thing you have the power to control him with your sins. What makes you think you can manipulate him with sinning and repenting. God saves once and for all.

Look deeply into any faith that keeps you pondering your future with God. If man gives you any guilt, run, run as far as you can. That is not what being yoked with Jesus is all about. A good Pastor will build your faith with God, not make you worry everyday, of your future.

I could go on and on, the point is. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, he was perfect, he had no broken bones, he never sinned, he selfishly paid a price that you (and I) could never pay. We are filthy sinners, our own death couldn't even pay the price to get us to heaven. Jesus died once for your sins, you are saved once. Don't expect Jesus to keep climbing back up on the cross every time you sin.

Lighthearted

 

[Paisley]

Read the book of James.

OSAS leaves no room for repentance, and ignores what Jesus said to repent of our sins. It is pretty farfetched and egotistical to think that you can sin, and not have to repent of anything. Repentance and prayer keeps our heart and mind in the right place. To go about day to day living, thinking you are saved while you don't have to pay attention to what you are doing, or how you are saying things to others, that your words may hurt them, or whatever you may be doing, is not paying attention to what the Apostles taught us.

As I said before, read the book of James (the one Martin Luther wanted to throw out of the Bible) - and OSAS and the book of James is a complete opposite of each other.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

OSAS is a doctrine which gives people false hope of salvation. There is a parable that Jesus gave that can clear this thing up if we are willing to look into it.

Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

There are 3 groups of people here. Those who did not accept the call, those who accepted the call, and those who accepted but were cast out. There will be those who will accept Jesus but will be found naked. We must be clothed with the proper garments to be chosen. You play a role in your own salvation.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

The garment that we will have to be clothed with is righteousness.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

God's righteousness which can only take effect in our lives when we make the effort to give our lives over to him and to resist the devil. Once it takes effect is leads to our righteousness. It takes effort for us as sinful human being to allow God to keep control of us. God always gives us a choice. Once we surrender he works in us to do the things that he wants us to do. He works in us so that we can be righteous and our deeds can be righteous. He works in us so that we can be righteous. God had no hands and feet but our own. He works through us. But we must let him work. When we do that we become clothed with righteousness and we become fit for the kingdom. It is not about accepting Christ today and not thinking about anything else.

Many would have accepted the wedding invitation. But then they did not worry about the garment. They would have been sure that they would be apart of the wedding feasts. They would have also told others to just accept the invitation and not worry about getting the proper garment. They would have been saying that the Bridegroom is already clothed properly and we don't have to worry about it, we just need to accept and we will be able to be there. But God will check all those who accepted the invitation to see if they are clothed with the proper garment. When the man was asked why he had to wrong garment he could not answer. He had no excuse because the garment was free.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Don't let anyone fool you. We must overcome to be clothed. It is not by our strength that we overcome but by God's strength. Those who say OSAS and are not overcomers will not be clothed and will be cast into outer darkeness.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

OSAS is a doctrine which gives people false hope of salvation. There is a parable that Jesus gave that can clear this thing up if we are willing to look into it.

Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

2 tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

romans 9:11(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


love scripture

 

[PROPHECYKID]

2 tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

romans 9:11(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


love scripture

Your point is?

I don't understand why you insist of fighting scripture with scripture when the bible should be looked at as a whole. One can say with confidence that he will be saved. He knows the relationship between him and his God. Teaching people that being saved once means that you will ultimately be saved regardless of your life afterward is false. This will cause many people to be found without the wedding garment.