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For those interested in the geological column

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Vance

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Odd that it deposited in a way that the fossils of extinct animals are far down in the column and that still-living species are at the top. (ie, we never see examples of still-living animals in lower levels or long extinct animals in higher levels).

Odd that we don't see fossils from various proposed eras mixed up in a single layer or even contiguous levels except in very anomolous situations such as folding, etc.

Odd that the fossils found the column show evidence of a progression from bottom to top of a nested heirarchy of species.

Odd that the column shows a progression of dating with the lower levels in almost EVERY case testing older on up to the highest level testing the youngest.

Exactly how did the flood sort the fossils into the layers exactly as evolutionary development expects?

Exactly how did they fossilize in the first place, given the short time frame?
 
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Ark Guy

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Vance said:
Odd that it deposited in a way that the fossils of extinct animals are far down in the column and that still-living species are at the top. (ie, we never see examples of still-living animals in lower levels or long extinct animals in higher levels).

Odd, vance has never heard of a living fossil.

Vance said:
Odd that we don't see fossils from various proposed eras mixed up in a single layer or even contiguous levels except in very anomolous situations such as folding, etc.

Odd that vance would expect that.

Vance said:
Odd that the fossils found the column show evidence of a progression from bottom to top of a nested heirarchy of species.

Odd that we find fossils just as we expect, with the sea dwelling first then the land animals last....score again for the flood model.

Vance said:
Odd that the column shows a progression of dating with the lower levels in almost EVERY case testing older on up to the highest level testing the youngest.

Odd how that's wrong.

Vance said:
Exactly how did the flood sort the fossils into the layers exactly as evolutionary development expects?

Funny how the geological column is just what the flood models say would produce.

Vance said:
Exactly how did they fossilize in the first place, given the short time frame?

It only takes a dozen years or so to form a fossil. As you already know, fossil formation depends on the minerals and mositure present in the area. Hmmmm, once again the flood model produces both.

Odd that we find dino bones not completely fossilized.
 
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notto

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Ark Guy said:
Odd that we find fossils just as we expect, with the sea dwelling first then the land animals last....score again for the flood model.

Actually, there are several place, the Grand Canyon being one of them, where the layers represent layerings such as sea, sand dune, non-pillowed volcanic rock, unsedimented volcanic ash, follwed by more sea, and of course, more land. Through out all of this is a mixture of land and sea animals, each corresponding the the layer you would expect to find them in based on where they lived (land or sea).


Why would we expect all of the sea animals to be buried first? Would they be best suited to survive a flood and end up dieing last only when the sea was dried up?

I would expect to see land animals, birds, and then sea creatures in a world wide flood. Land animals obviously drowning first, then birds drowning as they couldn't swim or move to dryer land once they couldn't fly anymore, and then sea creatures being dried up on top as the flood receeded. Wouldn't that make the most sense? If not, why not?
 
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notto

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Ark Guy said:
Odd that we find dino bones not completely fossilized.


Actually, I would expect to find more of them if they were buried quickly and recently. Why don't we find more unfossilized dinosaur bones when unfossilized bones of other animals are prevalent?

Why do we only find unfossilzed dinosaur bones in conditions that are either very cold (frozen) and even then, they are only, at the very most, partially and minimally unfossilized?

I would expect that we should find as many unfossilized dinosaur bones as we do humans, mammals (like mammoths), etc in the layers that have been supposednly laid down by the flood. Why don't we?

Edited to add: It is also interesting that the only claims of unfossilized dinosaur bones come from creationists sites and don't include a single picture. They all sound like reference, but there is no real source given for the claim.

Anybody have any pictures or analysis of these bones that don't come from a creationist retelling of a retelling of the story of their finding?
 
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Ark Guy

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notto said:
Actually, there are several place, the Grand Canyon being one of them, where the layers represent layerings such as sea, sand dune, non-pillowed volcanic rock, unsedimented volcanic ash, follwed by more sea, and of course, more land. Through out all of this is a mixture of land and sea animals, each corresponding the the layer you would expect to find them in based on where they lived (land or sea).

Reference please...or retract
 
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notto

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Ark Guy said:
Reference please...or retract

http://www.kaibab.org/geology/gc_layer.htm

Multiple Layers of sandstone, limestone, petrified dunes, and lava an ash. There are also places where erosion can be seen and then more sediment deposited on top of the already eroded face. Not really the geology of a world wide flood.

Lets start at the top.

We have
Kaibab Limestone - coral, mullusks, sea lillies (sea creatures)
Coconino Sandstone - Sand Dunes (Land formations, no fossils)
Hermit Shale - Ferns and Conifers (land trees)
Supai Formation - Amphibians and Reptiles (Land Animals)
Redwall Limestone - More sea fossils
Temple Butte Limestone - More Sea Fossils
Tonto Group - More Sea Fossils
Chuar Group - stromatolites (can only form in shallow water)
Unkar Group - stromatolites - lava flows
Vishnu Schist - metamorphosed lava along with sandstone, limestone and shale

So we have a transition from sandstone and limestone to lava to shallow water to deap seas to dry land to sand dunes and then back to sea.

And dispersed in the middle of all of this - several smaller lava and ash flows and layers - layed out flat, above the layer beneath them - untouched by water.

Based on the fossils, we know that this took large amounts of time (coral doesn't grow overnight and neither do ferns and conifers.

The geology of the grand canyon falsifies the flood model and has detail and features that cannot be explained by a flood (unless of course, ferns and conifers outran the amphibians and reptiles, only to be outpased by coral).
 
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Buck72

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Again, I hate to fill all of the space of this forum with lengthy posts, but, if the shoe fits...

[size=+3]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Geologic Column: Does It Exist?[/font]​
[/size]
[size=+1]by John Woodmorappe[/size]
[size=-1]First published in Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 13(2):77–82, 1999
All Rights Reserved. [Last Modified: 7 July 2003][/size]

i.gif
t has been claimed that the geological column as a faunel succession is not just a hypothetical concept, but a reality, because all Phanerozoic systems exist superposed at a number of locations on the earth. Close examination reveals, however, that even at locations where all ten systems are superposed, the column, as represented by sedimentary-thickness, is mostly missing. In fact, the thickest local accumulation of rock is only a tiny fraction of the inferred 600-million year’s worth of depositions. The global ‘stack’ of index fossils exists nowhere on earth, and most index fossils do not usually overlie each other at the same locality. So, even in those places where all Phanerozoic systems have been assigned, the column is still hypothetical. Locally, many of the systems have not been assigned by the index fossils contained in the strata but by indirect methods that take the column for granted — clearly circular reasoning. Thus the geologic column does not exist and so does not need to be explained by Flood geology. Only each local succession requires an explanation and Flood geology is wholly adequate for this task.</FONT>

Does the geologic column exist? If so, to what extent? With geological periods and epochs extending for hundreds of millions of years the column clearly contradicts the biblical time scale. Thus for many people, the geological column is an obstacle to their accepting a recent Creation and a world-wide Flood as recorded in Scripture.

Creationists have shown that the geological column presents no problem to Flood geology. It is nothing more than a hypothetical classification scheme based on selected rock outcrops in Europe, and used flexibly to classify rocks around the world.[size=-1][1],[2][/size] Anti-creationists have responded that the column is valid, having been built up in a thoroughly logical way long before the theory of evolution was invented, and that many of those who contributed to its building were creationists.[size=-1][3][/size] One unanswerable argument for the hypothetical character of the column is that nowhere in the world does the complete column exist. The majority of the geological periods are missing in the field. Although anti-creationists usually have not disputed that the column is mostly missing, they have argued that we should not expect the entire column to exist in the field. Erosion, they argue, is why the complete column is never found.3 Hence they claim that rocks deposited during one period would be eroded away during a later period. So, while those defending the column have invented ad hoc reasons to explain the missing geologic periods, they did not deny the hypothetical nature of the column.

Recently however, there have been a number of recurrent claims that the geological column is more than a hypothetical concept and that it actually exists.[size=-1][4][/size] Some of these claims have been made on the Internet and, as an active creationist scientist, I don’t have the time to fan the windmills of debate on this totally unregulated, unrefereed medium. Anyone can say anything on it, no matter how untrue. However, the claims made on this medium should not be ignored completely. We must provide responses from time to time so the critics and their readers don’t think their claims are unanswerable.

It is on the Internet that a number of geographical localities have been nominated where it has been asserted that the entire column is actually superposed period upon period in the one place.[size=-1][5][/size] This is one of the few intellectual-sounding arguments on the anti-creationist sites that some people may mistakenly take seriously. Thus I address the bogus arguments of some of these articles relating to the geologic column. I want to examine these claims closely, first correcting common misrepresentations of creationist literature on this subject, then delving into the geologic issues involved.

How is the Geologic Column Defined?

Anti-creationists have distorted what creationists have actually written about the geologic column, and created one huge ‘straw man’ of creationist research on global stratigraphy. Others have cited one or two popular-level creationist books and misrepresented them as the definitive thought of all creationists. For example, Glenn Morton writes in his Internet essay, The Entire Geologic Column in North Dakota:

‘A detailed examination of the young earth creationist claim that the geologic column does not exist. It is shown that the entire geologic column exists in North Dakota.’[size=-1][5][/size]

Morton’s claim is very misleading. The unsuspecting visitor to Morton’s website gets only a small part of the story. Yes, Morris and Parker,[size=-1][1][/size] whom Morton attacks, are not strictly accurate when they say there is no place on earth where all ten geologic systems are superposed. (I combine the Mississippian and the Pennsylvanian into the Carboniferous system, and omit the surficial Quarternary deposits.) However, it is wrong to state or imply that most creationist scholars believe this to be true. Back in 1968, Harold Clark[size=-1][6][/size] made it clear that there are many places on the earth with most or all of the ‘complete’ column in place. In 1981, I re-examined this fact, and quantified it.[size=-1][2][/size] More on this later.

But does the presence of all ten superposed Phanerozoic systems positively establish the reality of the geologic column? Hardly! Yet Morton (and others who repeat what he says) present it to their readers as if it did. As a start, let us examine more fully what Morris and Parker actually said about the geologic column:

‘The column is supposed to represent a vertical cross-section through the earth’s crust, with the most recently deposited (therefore youngest) rocks at the surface and the oldest, earliest rocks deposited on the crystalline “basement” rocks at the bottom. If one wishes to check out this standard column (or standard geologic age system), where can he go to see it for himself? There is only one place in all the world to see the standard geologic column. That’s in the textbook! ... almost any textbook, in fact, that deals with evolution or earth history. A typical textbook rendering of the standard column is shown in Figure 44. This standard column is supposed to be at least 100 miles [160 km] thick (some writers say up to 200 [320 km]), representing the total sedimentary activity of all of the geologic ages. However, the average thickness of each local geologic column is about one mile (in some places, the column has essentially zero thickness, in a few places it may be up to 16 or so miles [25 km], but the worldwide average is about one mile [1.6 km]). The standard column has been built up by superposition of local columns from many different localities.’ [size=-1][7][/size] (Emphasis in original.)

gecolumnfig1.jpg
[size=-1]Figure 1. The presence or absence of all ten Phanerozoic systems in a 'stack' is not the only issue concerning the reality or otherwise of the geologic column. The column to the left represents the maximum thickness of sedimentary rock attributed to each geologic period (100 miles). The column to the right represents to the same scale the thickness of sedimentary rock in North Dakota. Clearly the geologic column is far from complete in North Dakota.[/size]​
Note that Morris and Parker are not saying that the presence or absence of all ten Phanerozoic systems in a ‘stack’ is the only issue defining the reality or otherwise of the geologic column. What they are saying, as is seen in the part usually not quoted by anti-creationists, is that nowhere on earth is the geologic column complete in the sense of having the maximum thickness of sedimentary rock attributed to each geologic period. It is time anti-creationists stop misrepresenting Morris and Parker.

As for Morton, although he mentions the thickness-of-sediment issue, it is in a completely distorted manner:

‘In point of fact Morris and Parker define the geologic column in a silly fashion. There is no place on earth that has sediments from every single day since the origin of the earth. No geologist would require this level of detail from the geological column.’[size=-1][5][/size]

Morton’s comments have no semblance to reality. Creationists do not say that every single day’s deposits must be preserved! The fact is that Morris and Parker are not talking about a little of the daily sediment being missing. If we read the Morris and Parker quote again, we can see that the 100- or 200-mile column is not the presumed product of daily sedimentation. Rather, the 100- to 200-mile column represents the sum of the thickest sections from the field of each of the ten Phanerozoic systems and/or their major components.

Now what does all this mean? Common sense teaches us that 16 miles (at most) which exists, out of a total of 100 or 200 miles, is a very incomplete column! It remains primarily an invention of the uniformitarian imagination, and a textbook orthodoxy. So, although there are places where lithologies referable to all ten of the Phanerozoic systems can actually be seen superposed, creationists remain more than justified in highlighting the essential non-existence of the standard geologic column. And we have not even touched such matters as overlapping fossil ranges, non-superposed index fossils, and many other things, which expose the non-reality of the geologic column. That is, most fossils found are for only one geologic system (e.g. Devonian), and most index fossils do not actually superpose at the same locality. In other words, most locations with Devonian fishes are not overlain by rocks bearing Cretaceous ammonites, and most locations with Cretaceous ammonites do not overlie localities with Devonian fishes. The same can be said for all the index fossils of all of the geologic systems.

Continued...​
 
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Buck72

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Continued...


Can the Geologic Column be Found?

Sometimes the motives of creationist researchers are challenged in an attempt to defend the concept of the geologic column. Consider, for instance, Glenn Morton’s tale of how I ‘set out to prove that the geologic column did not exist’, and then was forced to admit that it did.[size=-1][8][/size] This fantasy has been picked up and repeated by other anti-creationists on the Internet without first checking what I actually wrote. The fact of the matter is, I in no sense tried to prove that the geologic column did not exist. The truth is that I already knew it didn’t! Nor was I in any way surprised to find that there are some places where lithologies attributed to all ten geologic periods can be found. I had known that long before. So had other informed creationists,[size=-1][9][/size] as pointed out earlier. In fact, I said so plainly on the first page of my article.[size=-1][10][/size]

So, why did I do the work? As I said on the first page of the article, the aim was to measure the degree of incompleteness of the geologic column. That is why I set up the maps, tables, and graphs to show the percentages of the earth’s surface that have various combinations of the ten Phanerozoic systems in place. I thus had considered the sedimentary Phanerozoic systems not only as single, unrelated entities, but also in terms of stratigraphically consecutive combinations.

There are other ways in which Glenn Morton’s criticism of my work is without foundation. Morton[size=-1][11][/size] has led his readers to believe that I had only mentioned Poland and Bolivia, and that, furthermore, I was claiming that those are the only locations on earth with the ten geologic systems in place. Actually, I specifically mentioned other potential places with the ‘complete’ column (e. g., Cuba, Indonesia, and the Himalayas).[size=-1][12][/size] Morton is saying nothing new at his website when he cites additional locations where the ‘complete’ column is found and shows them on a visually-attractive world map. Note that most if not all of the locations that Morton mentions can be found on Map 15 of my article.[size=-1][13[/size] These locations appear as white spots on Map 15, and include such places as northwest Russia, Siberia, the Caspian-Sea region, parts of China, the Williston Basin in the western USA, Bulgaria, Chile, Tunisia, central Mexico, and Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan. It is of course, possible that some smaller locations with ten superposed geologic systems have been lost in the level of resolution afforded by the Alexander Ronov et al. maps used in my study.

But where does Morton get his information? He cites as his source the work of the Robertson Group, a London-based oil-consulting company. I have been unable to secure a copy of this work, as it is not listed in either WorldCat or GEOREF. Thus I cannot comment on the accuracy of this source of information, nor discern whether or not its portrayal of sedimentary basins is overly schematic. Evidently, Morton is citing a proprietary source not subject to public scrutiny. But let us, for the sake of argument, grant the complete validity of what the Robertson Group states, as represented by Morton. Even then the claims are overly generalised. For example, Morton’s does not say how given strata had been ‘dated’. Which ‘geologic ages’ had been identified according to the faunal content of the strata, and which had simply been ‘guesstimated’ according to lithological similarity and/or comparable stratigraphic position with faunally-dated sedimentary formations at adjacent locations? All this is moot, however. As noted earlier, since most of the sediment is missing, Morton’s arguments are completely specious even if the Robertson Group work is thoroughly accurate and not excessively schematic in its depiction of the world’s sedimentary basins.

Finally, the number of different locations on earth with the ‘complete’ column is completely irrelevant. After all, regardless of whether there are 10 or 20 or even 50 locations on earth where all ten geologic systems are superposed, there is no escaping the fact that this still totals less than 1% of the earth’s surface. Even this 1% does not include ocean basins. When the ocean basins are included (none of which have more than a few of the ten geologic systems in place), the global figure falls to less than 0.4%.[size=-1][14][/size]

If this were not enough, the situation gets worse when we include the faunal basis for separating and correlating the lithologies into ‘geologic periods’. As mentioned earlier, only a small fraction of index fossils are superposed at the same location on Earth. This has been documented in my Diluviological Treatise.[size=-1][15][/size] Therefore, all things considered, scientific creationists are more than justified in concluding that the standard evolutionary-uniformitarian geologic column is, in fact, essentially non-existent.
 
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notto

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I won't copy and paste the entire article here but:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/

The geologic column isn't measured by thickness, but by content.

Does anybody have any references to those frozen dinosaur bones? Anything besides a childrens book? Any pictures or lab reports?
 
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Vance

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What that articles tells me is that they agree that the column exists, but not everywhere, and it is not complete. While I believe this is not true, as is shown in the first article I posted, it makes no difference, since even the degree to which the column does exist in any one place is massive proof that evolution is true for all the reasons I stated.

The one major misrepresentation included is that the column does not represent a problem for flood geology. This is utterly false, as is shown by the threads on the science forum. There is simply no way that the layers we have today could have been laid down by a world-wide flood. If anyone wants to present some credible scientific explanation, feel free, but it just doesn't work.
 
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