For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[Ar Cosc]

i think you are contradicting yourself when you repeatedly ask for signs of miracles as proof and then say "er...no, that wasn't at all what my point was."

anyway, this is how jesus responded to such an approach. after feeding 4000 with 7 loaves, mark 8:11-12:

11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

you are also repeatedly overlooking my point that healing an illness in a temporary body, or feeding a hungry person for one day, is clearly seen by jesus to be a compassionate act of getting the minds of people off carnality so they may be taught more spiritual, eternal lessons. there has to come a point where you stop viewing god as a miracle vending machine or that he should endlessly give a person a fish. one either learns the lesson and no longer depends on the miracles, or the miracles are wasted in the bigger picture and the sign is no longer given since they are pointless.

the "power of love" commentary i gave a few posts back was never a claim that only christians have this ability or that it is christianity's only testament. it was a statement that christians should carry out christ's commissions instead of getting hung up on a doctrine of miracles. i think you may have deliberately misused the context of what i said to make your own points.

Well, if God was all-powerful, it wouldn't cost him anything to, say, write "Jehova" in the sky, after getting a few prophets to spread the word that he was going to. The fact that he doesn't do something like this is surely a sign that he's not particularly bothered about sending people to Hell. Note that this isn't forcing people to love him, it's just revealing he's out there.

 

[HosannaHM]

Well, if God was all-powerful, it wouldn't cost him anything to, say, write "Jehova" in the sky, after getting a few prophets to spread the word that he was going to. The fact that he doesn't do something like this is surely a sign that he's not particularly bothered about sending people to Hell. Note that this isn't forcing people to love him, it's just revealing he's out there.

I guess-if you're a firm believer in only what you see

 

[Cabal]

i think you are contradicting yourself when you repeatedly ask for signs of miracles as proof and then say "er...no, that wasn't at all what my point was."

anyway, this is how jesus responded to such an approach. after feeding 4000 with 7 loaves, mark 8:11-12:

11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

you are also repeatedly overlooking my point that healing an illness in a temporary body, or feeding a hungry person for one day, is clearly seen by jesus to be a compassionate act of getting the minds of people off carnality so they may be taught more spiritual, eternal lessons.

I'm not talking about trying to prove Jesus' divinity or that God should be a vending machine, that's entirely your own misunderstanding.

And I'm not overlooking the point, my point is that the spiritual and eternal lessons would be more likely to take root if they were accompanied by miracles. You can get the minds off carnality with a miracle and then you'd surely have their attention for what followed. Providing for someone by just being nice to them, seeing as that's not an action unique to Christianity, it doesn't exactly make the underlying belief system convincing.

there has to come a point where you stop viewing god as a miracle vending machine or that he should endlessly give a person a fish. one either learns the lesson and no longer depends on the miracles, or the miracles are wasted in the bigger picture and the sign is no longer given since they are pointless.

Again, this is not what I'm claiming. If miracles only happened a few times to someone until they were saved, that would be something, but it's not like that's even the case.

the "power of love" commentary i gave a few posts back was never a claim that only christians have this ability or that it is christianity's only testament. it was a statement that christians should carry out christ's commissions instead of getting hung up on a doctrine of miracles. i think you may have deliberately misused the context of what i said to make your own points.

They should carry it out, but it's not a uniquely compelling point for Christianity. Miracles could be, if they were more regularly observed following prayer to God.

 

[Hespera]

I guess-if you're a firm believer in only what you see

As for me i am not a believer in things that are completely undetectable.

how could I pick which undetectable thing i should dedicate my life to?
There are so many 'gods" so many versions of the christian one.

i guess you are a firm believer in a god that claims to have destroyed all but one family in a flood.... a flood that clearly and absolutely did not ever happen?

That is a whole step beyond believing what you cant see, hear, taste, smell, feel or pick up on the radio!

.

 

[Ar Cosc]

I guess-if you're a firm believer in only what you see

The thing is, billions of people are firm believers in only what we can see, or at least detect in other ways. Does God not care about these people? If he exists, how can he justify sitting back and letting us all go to hell, when he could give us the evidence we want with a wave of his hand?

 

[AV1611VET]

The thing is, billions of people are firm believers in only what we can see, or at least detect in other ways.

1 and 1

 

[Ar Cosc]

1 and 1

Both completely debunked in those threads.

 

[Greg1234]

Well, if God was all-powerful, it wouldn't cost him anything to, say, write "Jehova" in the sky, after getting a few prophets to spread the word that he was going to. The fact that he doesn't do something like this is surely a sign that he's not particularly bothered about sending people to Hell. Note that this isn't forcing people to love him, it's just revealing he's out there.

That was a purely naturalistic or a future purely naturalistic phenomenon. What is given is sufficient.

 

[Ar Cosc]

That was a purely naturalistic or a future purely naturalistic phenomenon. What is given is sufficient.

For who? For me? For all the other atheists? For the Muslims? For one billion Chinese? For a billion Indians? Does God want us all to go to hell?

 

[Seamus Riley]

Well, if God was all-powerful, it wouldn't cost him anything to, say, write "Jehova" in the sky, after getting a few prophets to spread the word that he was going to. The fact that he doesn't do something like this is surely a sign that he's not particularly bothered about sending people to Hell. Note that this isn't forcing people to love him, it's just revealing he's out there.

christians contend that god has done this many times. skeptics contend it is not convincing enough or not enough times. which is why i referenced mark 8:11-12. side note: it's not my belief that god sends anyone to hell, but rather, the whole of the bible seems to say to me that god is saying "come with me to heaven" and giving us the choice of our own destiny.

The thing is, billions of people are firm believers in only what we can see, or at least detect in other ways.

i think you might have meant something more than what this says at face value. so instead of attacking the claim, i'll ask for elaboration.

Both completely debunked in those threads.

i went ahead and read both of those threads. "debunked" is giving far too much credit to the many evasive responses there. the few serious responses weren't conclusive either.

 

[Seamus Riley]

I'm not talking about trying to prove Jesus' divinity or that God should be a vending machine, that's entirely your own misunderstanding.

And I'm not overlooking the point, my point is that the spiritual and eternal lessons would be more likely to take root if they were accompanied by miracles. You can get the minds off carnality with a miracle and then you'd surely have their attention for what followed. Providing for someone by just being nice to them, seeing as that's not an action unique to Christianity, it doesn't exactly make the underlying belief system convincing.

Again, this is not what I'm claiming. If miracles only happened a few times to someone until they were saved, that would be something, but it's not like that's even the case.

They should carry it out, but it's not a uniquely compelling point for Christianity. Miracles could be, if they were more regularly observed following prayer to God.

your argument breaks down without the supposition that god's existence and message to mankind must be supported by miracles alone.

and i neither made the claim that acts of love alone are what verifies christianity.

if i take your word that you are not missing my point, what am i to make of your assertions that miracles "would be more likely to take root" when it contradicts the biblical point of view, which i have given repeatedly?

you keep saying that your arguments are not a begging of more miracles, but several of your posts do, several times per post, including this one.

i'm going to repeat mark 8:11-12, but i'm not trying to be condescending, just for ease of reference, so that you might see another message in the text. previously i used it to show how jesus reacts to those who see and still disbelieve. but look at it with this emphasis:

11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

the implication is that if in your seeking your motivation is disprove, you won't see god.

rom 1:25-28

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator...since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

matt 7:7

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

what is it then that someone who seeks to disprove god will find if they have made up their minds?

the overall suggestion is that seeking god by scientific method will lead to disbelief. perhaps the famous proverb about the eye of the needle would be transliterated today to a scientist, rather than a rich man, considering riches were more of a point of pride back then than science was. that is not to say i think scientists should "sell all they have" in knowledge, but i think god may ask them to merely suspend it while considering him.

 

[Cabal]

your argument breaks down without the supposition that god's existence and message to mankind must be supported by miracles alone.

Except I wasn't supposing that.

and i neither made the claim that acts of love alone are what verifies christianity.

Didn't say that that was your claim either, but you seem to be bringing little else to the table here.

if i take your word that you are not missing my point, what am i to make of your assertions that miracles "would be more likely to take root" when it contradicts the biblical point of view, which i have given repeatedly?

It doesn't contradict reality - more people would believe given clearer signs. That's a given.

you keep saying that your arguments are not a begging of more miracles, but several of your posts do, several times per post, including this one

i'm going to repeat mark 8:11-12, but i'm not trying to be condescending, just for ease of reference, so that you might see another message in the text. previously i used it to show how jesus reacts to those who see and still disbelieve. but look at it with this emphasis:

See what? A miracle? And I'm not talking about those who would disbelieve with signs - I'm talking about those who would be more inclined to believe given a sign.

11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

And for what reason? Again, I don't see this as consistent with the assumption that God is serious about saving as many people as he can.

the implication is that if in your seeking your motivation is disprove, you won't see god.

rom 1:25-28

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator...since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

matt 7:7

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

what is it then that someone who seeks to disprove god will find if they have made up their minds?

Again, not the sort of individual I'm talking about. I'm not talking about people seeing signs with the intention to disprove, I'm talking about people seeing signs with the opposite intent.

the overall suggestion is that seeking god by scientific method will lead to disbelief. perhaps the famous proverb about the eye of the needle would be transliterated today to a scientist, rather than a rich man, considering riches were more of a point of pride back then than science was. that is not to say i think scientists should "sell all they have" in knowledge, but i think god may ask them to merely suspend it while considering him.

I think we're done here. All I'm seeing are excuses being made up for a deity that's either non-existent or absenteeist, and it's getting a little irritating repeatedly correcting your misreadings of my posts.

 

[Ar Cosc]

christians contend that god has done this many times. skeptics contend it is not convincing enough or not enough times. which is why i referenced mark 8:11-12. side note: it's not my belief that god sends anyone to hell, but rather, the whole of the bible seems to say to me that god is saying "come with me to heaven" and giving us the choice of our own destiny.



i think you might have meant something more than what this says at face value. so instead of attacking the claim, i'll ask for elaboration.

I mean that, even if what has been done already "should" be enough, it's clearly not for billions of people, who require more evidence in order to believe. It's zero effort for God to provide this evidence, so why doesn't he do it? Unless he's not really bothered about us believing in him.

i went ahead and read both of those threads. "debunked" is giving far too much credit to the many evasive responses there. the few serious responses weren't conclusive either.

Okay, well you can have my response. There's a scale of credibility here. You'd believe something more readily when there is lots of independent verification, and none of the participants have any reason to lie. There's no motivation for every oceanographer in the world to lie about the Mariana trench. There's plenty of motivation to lie about being the chosen people of God.

 

[Doveaman]

What happened to your faith icon.

 

[Inan3]

No, as a Christian right now, if a Hindu came up to you and said those words, what would you think?

Let me repeat it:

I know what it is like to be a Hindu...to be born of Vishnu and to know him. I know what it is like to be led of the Spirit of Vishnu. I, also, know what it is like to be a non-Hindu...unsaved, lost, and without Vishnu and that is what it like to be an atheist or a Christian or a Muslim etc. Vishnu for ALL humanity. Vishnu is it.

You don't know much about Hinduism do you?

 

[Cabal]

What happened to your faith icon.

I changed it.

 

[Doveaman]

I changed it.

Sorry you couldn't find what you were "seeking".

 

[Cabal]

Sorry you couldn't find what you were "seeking".

Gave it long enough.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

You don't know much about Hinduism do you?

Are you afraid to answer my question? Man up already. It's a hypothetical.

 

[Inan3]

Well, snce you've made a CHOICE, are you willing to consider the possibility, either here or somewhere down the road, that you made the wrong CHOICE??

Well, it's been forty years now, so I don't think I'm likely to do that anytime soon. But let me ask this question... so I find out I've made the wrong choice... then what?? Do you have a better answer?? I don't think you do. No one can tell me where it all began. No on can tell me for sure that I am wrong. You only say you don't believe. Ok you don't believe but can you tell me YOU are right... for sure? No, you can't. I'm not in a place where I feel "ify" about what I believe. I feel very confident in it and as I continue on, I only become more convinced. I don't have or know all the answers to science, as a matter of fact I know very little, I leave that to others, but I do know that nothing I have ever seen or heard has shown me I am wrong... EVER (about God and His Word anyway).... because there always is an explanation that says maybe they are wrong because they seem to have some discrepencies themselves.

So why should I throw everything I believe away for discrepencies. That just doesn't make sense to me and even if I did throw it all away, there would be such a void in my life, I would not enjoy my life anymore. It would be so mundane and dreary. God puts color into every aspect of my life. I believe in God because He has given me real life. No one, no thing, not anything can take the place of God in my life.

We're discussing the possibility of being wrong -- have you ever considered the possibility that you were wrong... about anything?

Yes, all the time... about many things. And I would be lying if I said I never questioned the possibility that I might be wrong about my faith in God. I have, but after looking at why I believed in the first place, and into the credibility of each doubt, I ended up finding out I was more convinced than ever. I have done this several times over the past 40 years at different levels of my life and faith and each time I come out stronger. God has always walked me through it and with each doubt He has pointed out its antithesis. God says, "come let us reason together" and I even think sometimes He may instigate the questioning because He wants me to seek and find and go higher and further in Him, and thereby, solidify and strengthen my faith. It always seems to work because in the end, I would always conclude "this is so obvious to me now... why did I even allow myself to doubt?

Wrong? Yes, I have been wrong many times and I don't like it but isn't that what drives us on to find the truth? I am a seeker and God promises when I do I will find. He has never failed me in this. Whenever I have sought out the answers, I have always come away with the truth.