For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[Greg1234]

What if someone said...

I know what it is like to be a Hindu...to be born of Vishnu and to know him. I know what it is like to be led of the Spirit of Vishnu. I, also, know what it is like to be a non-Hindu...unsaved, lost, and without Vishnu and that is what it like to be an atheist or a Christian or a Muslim etc. Vishnu for ALL humanity. Vishnu is it.

What would you think?

That there are many names for one God. This isnt entirely new.

 

[Greg1234]

Yes, it's called intellectual honesty.

And there are Muslims who have blown themselves up in the name of their god. You'd want to be pretty convinced of his existence to do something as extreme as that.

I don't see why they wouldn't. I woukd be pretty convinced about the existence of Pyramid builders also.

 

[Skavau]

I CHOSE to believe. I still CHOOSE to believe, even though, I have had so many atheists trying to change my mind with all their "evidence" . I still CHOOSE to believe because no one can tell me where it all came from. No one has the answer to how we got here. No one can fill in all the gaps and blanks that are still out there and no one can remove the last 40 years of a credible relationship with the Lord God from my life. He's in my heart, my life, my mind. No one has EVER been able to show me a better way. Do you have a better way, AC?

That's not what you were asked. You were asked if you could just, right now, on a whim or on a will drop your belief in Christianity for Islam. Could you do it? Why or why not?

 

[Greg1234]

You refuse to even entertain the possibility that you might be wrong. There are Muslims and Hindus out there who are just as convinced as you are that their Gods are real. They have just as much evidence as you as well, as in just their own holy texts. Your own personal conviction, as strong as it may be, is still not evidence of anything.

Muslims, Hindus and Christians acknowledge the same uncaused cause. There is only one.

 

[Greg1234]

Well, snce you've made a CHOICE, are you willing to consider the possibility, either here or somewhere down the road, that you made the wrong CHOICE?


A choice to acknowledge that man is created is more or less the same as the choice to believe that the Great Pyramids were created.

We're discussing the possibility of being wrong -- have you ever considered the possibility that you were wrong... about anything?

Like whether or not the Great Pyramid is built or whether or not magnetic fields actually exist? You're confusing a materialist for a theist and assuming that the bias you harbor which prevents you from acknowledging what is in front of you persists as a universally shared trait.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Muslims, Hindus and Christians acknowledge the same uncaused cause. There is only one.

You are wrong. Muslims, Hindus and Christians believe different things. You shouldn't have to be told this.

And back to the point of the thread, supposing there had to have been an uncaused cause, and even supposing that cause was an intelligent deity, why are you so sure it was a particular violent, intolerant, Middle-Eastern deity with a peculiar hatred for shellfish and cotton-polyester blends?

 

[Greg1234]

You are wrong. Muslims, Hindus and Christians believe different things. You shouldn't have to be told this.

Actually you're a materialist. We are only talking about the existence of God.

And back to the point of the thread, supposing there had to have been an uncaused cause, and even supposing that cause was an intelligent deity, why are you so sure it was a particular violent, intolerant, Middle-Eastern deity with a peculiar hatred for shellfish and cotton-polyester blends?

What is a "middle eastern uncaused cause"?

 

[Inan3]

Funny. There's lots of Muslims in the world that say Christianity is brainwashing. I wonder why that is.

Oh yeah? Who are they? I can give you a few of their own who say different.


Muslims find the real Jesus

YouTube - Former Muslims United: Wafa Sultan

YouTube - Testimony of Lydia a Muslim Believer in Allah Who Became a Christian

Cover Letter & Pledge | Former Muslims United

FrontPage Magazine - Leaving Islam

 

[Hespera]

Christianity is a CHOICE to believe where as Islam is a brainwashing of it's adherents by force. Not the same thing.

Well, in your best intellectual honesty tell me all your doubts about what you believe. What do you entertain is wrong about the way you think?

Mentioning again that it would be a courtesy to all if you would use a different font colour. Its difficult and somewhat painful to read this one.

On topic here, i dont know how it is that anyone can "choose to believe" anything.

I didnt choose to love my husband, i didnt choose to believe he loves me; I feel it, I know it.

 

[Cabal]

I know this, that it is so ironic how you guys seem to ALWAYS get what we Christians say so twisted up and opposite of what we actually do say. It's just like two opposite polarities or like night and day or light and darkness. You actually CANNOT understand what we say because you almost NEVER get it right. I used to think you did it on purpose but now I am beginning to wonder.

I know what it is like to be led of the Spirit of God. I, also, know what it is like to be a non-Christian ... unsaved, lost and without God and that is what it is like to be an atheist or a Hindu or a Muslim etc.

In the above quote, you took your own experience of being a non-believer and generalised it to a claim of what being a non-believer is like.

And you're wrong - on your generalisation, and on what you just accused me of.

I'm curious though Inan, does this approach of generalising other people's beliefs and insisting that your beliefs are true actually ever convince anyone?

 

[Cabal]

i'm not saying it shouldn't happen now. i've stated all throughout this leg of the discussion that it seemed to me that jesus had a place for miraculous healing, but that it was only a means not an end. when jesus says the kingdom of heaven is at hand, it seems to me to he is trying to get people away from being carnally minded, but still did employ physical healing to teach and to pour out compassion.

I would have thought from a Christian point of view however that that hadn't exactly changed.

no, jesus did not teach a doctrine of medical science either. i did not use the verse in the way you say i have. i merely pointed out that jesus has left room for both. neither did i claim that a single verse was a dismissal of a proposed faith healing doctrine, but said that the absence of such a doctrine should place the verse into perspective.

Then if you're using both verses in that way, why emphasis medical healing over faith healing?

not at all. if i pay your speeding ticket for you, i have taken the consequence from you and applied it to myself, thus giving you a new consequence. you can choose to be grateful and allow the gratitude to affect your life and/or others around you, or you can choose to say "who does that jerk think he is? what is he trying to pull with that stunt?"

And healing someone gives them a new consequence. They got to be healed. Sorry, but you really can't claim that one is a new consequence and the other isn't.

i call them lesser in the sense that jesus placed more importance on the forgiveness of sins than the healing of illnesses. i paraphrased him on that in a previous post. i also alluded above to his statement about the kingdom of heaven, also indicative of a god who is very concerned with saving people. in saving one from spiritual death, one might also try save them from the carnality of mind. his compassion overlooked this when he attempts to meet people where they are at mentally and thus he heals them, but clearly he had hoped to show them more.

Again, isn't that still a big problem today? You're pretty much acknowledging my point for me here - miracles would enable God to show them more - this would surely be beneficial if he's actually serious about saving people.

And I still don't see why this should be viewed as lesser necessarily seeing as it's pretty standard doctrine that Jesus meets us at where we are in life, not where we should be at.

i see. you are looking for an end all, be all demonstration to finally put to rest any and all doubts everyone of us may have about jesus' divinity. but jesus has already demonstrated in his time and those who would doubt still doubted, saying "he casts out satan by satans power" (paraphrase, sorry, i'm running late for work).

Er...no, that wasn't at all what my point was.

You're claiming that "the power of love" in the form of looking after the sick and poor could be a strong testament to Christianity - whereas it doesn't have a monopoly on that, and wasn't the first belief system to encourage that. You can't make a case for something being true or different when there are thousands of other groups doing the same thing. It's like claiming that a good case for Christianity can be made because many of its adherents have hair. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the acts of looking after the poor and healing the sick have very little to do with the matter of Jesus' divinity.

But even then, Jesus' divinity wasn't what I was talking about either. I'm saying that ruling out a very convincing tool doesn't suggest a god that is as serious as saving people as his followers claim he is.

the argument that why doesn't jesus come down again springs to mind. but if he did, it would prove more than anything else that god doing something once, wasn't effective the first time.

Actually, given that the choice to follow Christ is supposed to be fair, the fact that we got one poorly-recorded revelation 2000 years ago and that's all we getting also doesn't strike me as the action of a god who's serious about saving people.

To come down repeatedly isn't an indictment of God, merely an acknowledge that we, unlike God, change over time, in our collective knowledge, understanding, and perception of things.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Actually you're a materialist. We are only talking about the existence of God.

And for the purpose of this discussion, we're assuming there is some sort of a God. Now, if a creator were necessary for the universe, and your pyramid 747 babble had some merit to it, what reason is there to believe that this deity is the same deity described in the bible?

What is a "middle eastern uncaused cause"?

Do you deliberately misunderstand everyone just to troll, or have you actually some other issue, like English not being your first language?

 

[Hespera]

And for the purpose of this discussion, we're assuming there is some sort of a God. Now, if a creator were necessary for the universe, and your pyramid 747 babble had some merit to it, what reason is there to believe that this deity is the same deity described in the bible?



Do you deliberately misunderstand everyone just to troll, or have you actually some other issue, like English not being your first language?

Here is a q for you:

Why do you ask?

 

[brogabriel2009]

Does God exist? Here are six straight-forward reasons to believe that God is really there.



Just once wouldn't you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God's existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, "You just have to believe." Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.
But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.
When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.5
Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.6
The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.7 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.
The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8 Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9
Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10
The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.
How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the universe so orderly, so reliable?
"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."11
Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."12



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[Ar Cosc]

Here is a q for you:

Why do you ask?

The second part? It's because Greg consistently fails to acknowledge or understand clearly-laid out points. If he's doing this to troll, or to be wilfully ignorant, he's not worth talking to, but if English isn't his first language, he has a genuine excuse, and I'll try and rephrase my points so everything I've said is as clear as possible.

 

[brogabriel2009]

4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.

All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. Did you know that in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program? As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three billion of these letters in every human cell!!
Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.13
Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that code in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop.
Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.
I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.
I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge, socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow, besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered, "...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of England."
Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his love for me.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.

Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.
He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."14 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."15
What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.16
Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our self-centeredness and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us. Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.
Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity, providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus' death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven, fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you."17 This is God, in action.
Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."18
God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him. The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind Faith.
If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.

This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him [or her]."19 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."
God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."20
So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way. If you need more information about Jesus' claim to divinity, or about God's existence, or if you have similar important questions, please email us.

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[Cabal]

Does God exist? Here are six straight-forward reasons to believe that God is really there.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away.

Or the "evidence" could simply be wrong, or misapplied.

It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking.

Which is ironic, given how many conspiracy theorists I've encountered who are also Christian.

Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

Yes, the moon journey is capable of being evidenced, it's arguable that god, or at least, certain conceptions of god, cannot be, which is a pretty fundamental difference.

When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God. 1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him? Here then, are some reasons to consider...

Why are you appealing to reason and then talking about seeking with the heart, which is about emotions, not reason? If you appeal to logic and reason, then your arguments must stand up on logic and reason.

1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Appeals to complexity and fine-tuning? No thanks.

"imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be all right, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for." - Douglas Adams

Next!

2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.
*snip*
The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

And going "THEREFORE GOD" is still a non sequitur. I'm quite content with "I don't know", but it's not necessarily even that - there could be a "yet" missing from that statement.

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?

Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after day:

*snip*

Again, going "THEREFORE GOD" is still a non sequitur.

EDIT:

4 is God-of-the-gaps, plus attributing purpose to things, which is usually misguided.
5 and 6 are just laughable, frankly - many people aren't believers because God hasn't revealed himself in a way that is convincing, and this is despite them being very open to the idea of belief in him. As for Jesus, claiming that you're divine is not in the least bit proof that you are, and the miracles are second hand, unverifiable accounts.

Might want to lay off the copy-paste?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

That there are many names for one God. This isnt entirely new.

Hindu, Muslim, and Christian beliefs are mutually exclusive. They are not compatible at all.

 

[Hespera]

Might want to lay off the copy-paste?

I'd bet as much as $1.29 that captain cut n' paste doesnt understand any of the points, cant defend them and has no ideas of his own.

the basic tactic is like a document dump.

a drive-by dump at that.

 

[Seamus Riley]

I would have thought from a Christian point of view however that that hadn't exactly changed.

Then if you're using both verses in that way, why emphasis medical healing over faith healing?

And healing someone gives them a new consequence. They got to be healed. Sorry, but you really can't claim that one is a new consequence and the other isn't.

Again, isn't that still a big problem today? You're pretty much acknowledging my point for me here - miracles would enable God to show them more - this would surely be beneficial if he's actually serious about saving people.

And I still don't see why this should be viewed as lesser necessarily seeing as it's pretty standard doctrine that Jesus meets us at where we are in life, not where we should be at.

Er...no, that wasn't at all what my point was.

You're claiming that "the power of love" in the form of looking after the sick and poor could be a strong testament to Christianity - whereas it doesn't have a monopoly on that, and wasn't the first belief system to encourage that. You can't make a case for something being true or different when there are thousands of other groups doing the same thing. It's like claiming that a good case for Christianity can be made because many of its adherents have hair. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the acts of looking after the poor and healing the sick have very little to do with the matter of Jesus' divinity.

But even then, Jesus' divinity wasn't what I was talking about either. I'm saying that ruling out a very convincing tool doesn't suggest a god that is as serious as saving people as his followers claim he is.

Actually, given that the choice to follow Christ is supposed to be fair, the fact that we got one poorly-recorded revelation 2000 years ago and that's all we getting also doesn't strike me as the action of a god who's serious about saving people.

To come down repeatedly isn't an indictment of God, merely an acknowledge that we, unlike God, change over time, in our collective knowledge, understanding, and perception of things.

i think you are contradicting yourself when you repeatedly ask for signs of miracles as proof and then say "er...no, that wasn't at all what my point was."

anyway, this is how jesus responded to such an approach. after feeding 4000 with 7 loaves, mark 8:11-12:

11 The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. 12 He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

you are also repeatedly overlooking my point that healing an illness in a temporary body, or feeding a hungry person for one day, is clearly seen by jesus to be a compassionate act of getting the minds of people off carnality so they may be taught more spiritual, eternal lessons. there has to come a point where you stop viewing god as a miracle vending machine or that he should endlessly give a person a fish. one either learns the lesson and no longer depends on the miracles, or the miracles are wasted in the bigger picture and the sign is no longer given since they are pointless.

the "power of love" commentary i gave a few posts back was never a claim that only christians have this ability or that it is christianity's only testament. it was a statement that christians should carry out christ's commissions instead of getting hung up on a doctrine of miracles. i think you may have deliberately misused the context of what i said to make your own points.