For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[Doveaman]

he wants you to prove that is ALL there is to it. Kind of like you have to prove that your TV only works with hardware and electricity.

Can you prove there is not an immaterial "TV will" in there?

or that your car doesnt have feelings?

He thinks this is a completely legit argument to make.

How a TV and car works can be demonstrated.

All he has to do is demonstrate the physical processes that generate the human "will".

If the human "will" is indeed physical then that shouldn't be too difficult. So far all I'm hearing are blind assumptions about the brain.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Prove it.
My hands move in response to the electrical signals generated through my brain by my "will". Therefore my "will" did it.

You should really take a biology class sometime

 

[Phred]

Prove it.

show anything that can be created, made, done without the physical body/brain to do it. A thought requires the brain, a breath requires the body. Without the physical there is nothing. Oh, I know you desperately wish to believe in a "soul" that exists in some magic place separate from the physical. But it just isn't so. Magic things don't exist. They are created within our minds which are simply functions of our brains. I fully believe there are things we don't yet understand about how that brain works. That doesn't justify magic.

My hands move in response to the electrical signals generated through my brain by my "will". Therefore my "will" did it.

Your "will" is just the word you use to describe that which you can't name in any other way. It's the amalgam of your brain and that which your brain and your experiences have created, your "self". This is an entirely physical phenomenon. It resides in your brain and your body. But it does not exist without your brain and body.

 

[Hespera]

]How a TV and car works can be demonstrated. [/B]

All he has to do is demonstrate the physical processes that generate the human "will".

If the human "will" is indeed physical then that shouldn't be too difficult. So far all I'm hearing are blind assumptions about the brain.

Oh? You understand TV, electricity?

Nobody understands everything about how a TV works. We just know how to make it work largely based simply on empitical knowledge. Like driving a car without a clue to how a car really works.

Nobody knows everything about how a brain works either. If you think neuro research is so easy, you go do some. (your blind assumption is that it must be easy)

Into that lack of present knowledge you insert your "blind assumption" that there is (you dont say might be, or you think, you say there IS, a fact not in evidence) something nonphysical.

Statements of fact not in evidence get into the thin ice of false witnessing, dont you think?

You are trying to work the "cant prove it isnt so" angle still.

There could be something nonphysical but in the total complete and utter lack of the slightest scrap of evidence, it remains only a possibility that could possibly be demonstrated as fact.

But you say its a fact..dont you?

What is it that makes you comfortable stating as true facts that are not in evidence? Seriously, is there anything in your sense of ethics, morality, t-ruthfulness or your religion that argues against doing that?

 

[HosannaHM]

Explain talent and difference of personality. Why are we here? Survival is your purpose in life?

 

[Doveaman]

That's just a product of more complex thought processes. Animals are perfectly capable of having the will to kill, and the intelligence to create tools. Nuclear weapons are just an extension of this.

When animals are capable of creating nuclear weapons your point will have meaning. For now it doesn’t.

You've no proof of this. When we resist the urge to find food or sex, different neurons fire. There are many evolutionary explanations for things such as altruism and self-control.

I’m sure there are.

Neurons are always firing in the brain, and they sometimes fire in response to the human “will”, they do not cause the human “will”. The human “will” is in control of the human, not the neurons. We are driven by our “will”, not by our neurons, in the same way a car is driven by a person and not by gasoline.

But there's no evidence for it, and no need for it. You can assert there is some sort of nonphysical "will" all you want, but without evidence, it's just another Russell's Teapot.

The same can be said of the human “will” being physical, there is no evidence for it being physical, just unsupported claims.

 

[Doveaman]

Is there a non-physical "will" that governs urinary excretion? Or do the kidneys do it through natural processes?

Is there a non-physical "will" that governs the heart's pacemaker? Or does it operate due to physical laws?

There is no reason to believe that consciousness is any different than anything else our body does. There is a physical reason.

And this is a GOOD THING...because physical reasons can be altered with physical therapies. If the kidney had a "will" governing it, our diuretics wouldn't work. Understanding the natural way something works in the human body means that we can treat it when something goes wrong. You people who demand that we reserve a spot for the spiritual are getting in the way of tomorrow's therapies.

My claim is in regard to how the mind works, not how the body works. There is more to the mind than just a physical brain. The human “will” is one example.

Assuming the human will is physical, can you demonstrate the physical processes in the brain that produces the human “will”, or is this just a blind assumption on your part?

 

[Tomatoman]

My claim is in regard to how the mind works, not how the body works. There is more to the mind than just a physical brain. The human “will” is one example.

Assuming the human will is physical, can you demonstrate the physical processes in the brain that produces the human “will”, or is this just a blind assumption?

Why not do some research yourself. It's only a google away you know.

(I remember reading about this subject in some book on the brain. I haven't got time to google it myself as I'm off home, but brain readings in experimenst can reveal decisions being made 5 or 6 seconds before conscious thought is involved. Maybe someone can find it for me. Once again, it's a fascinating subject, with surprises for both religious and non-religious people.)

 

[Ar Cosc]

When animals are capable of creating nuclear weapons your point will have meaning. For now it doesn’t.

A nuclear weapon is simply an advanced tool. You couldn't make a nuclear weapon. That doesn't make you any less human.

I’m sure there are.

Neurons are always firing in the brain, and they sometimes fire in response to the human “will”, they do not cause the human “will”. The human “will” is in control of the human, not the neurons. We are driven by our “will”, not by our neurons, in the same way a car is driven by a person and not by gasoline.

You have no evidence for this, no matter what analogy you use. You're just making it up to fit in with a preconceived notion of the nonphysical "will".

The same can be said of the human “will” being physical, there is no evidence for it being physical, just unsupported claims.

There's the fact that hunger, thirst, the desire to stop pain all come from neurons firing in your brain. Why would any other urge or impulse be any different?

 

[Hespera]

Explain talent and difference of personality. Why are we here? Survival is your purpose in life?

you know, we offered to discuss some things earlier, why dont you deal with those instead of bringing up new stuff?

Even reptiles have individual personalities. Everyone has seen talent differences in dogs.

Do you think all animals will be exactly the same? What is to "explain"?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

My claim is in regard to how the mind works, not how the body works. There is more to the mind than just a physical brain. The human “will” is one example.

Where is your evidence that the mind is separate from the body? There are many, many instances in the research where it is clear that altering the brain alters the mind. You can't separate the two.

My point about other organs was that you are perfectly fine in accepting physical explanations for those organs because it is so clearly demonstrated that you'd be considered a fool not to accept them. But the brain...ah...there is some ambiguity there. It's much more abstract. The consensus isn't as clear. We must insert the supernatural there! What's going to happen to your God of the Gaps when brain function gets more conclusively mapped? It will just move to a new gap...just like how God used to be behind the thunder and lightning, used to be in the ocean, and used to be in the stars.

Assuming the human will is physical, can you demonstrate the physical processes in the brain that produces the human “will”, or is this just a blind assumption on your part?

Me: there is no evidence of anything beyond the physical
You: PROVE IT!

This is like asking me to "disprove" God's existence. Why should I have to? You're the one making the claim. All I'm saying is that there is no reason to believe the mind is any different than the body. You are the one claiming that there MUST be a supernatural "will" tacked on to the physical. Occam's razor is with me on this one - you are the one that is adding extraneous information.

 

[Hespera]

Why not do some research yourself. It's only a google away you know.

.)

Study is the enemy of creationism?

 

[sandwiches]

Prove it.
My hands move in response to the electrical signals generated through my brain by my "will". Therefore my "will" did it.

The evidence is that all we ever detect is physical and nothing else. Now, you're the one making the claim that there is more than meets the eye. Show us evidence that human will is nonphysical.

In fact, show me even a single instance where the nonphysical can verifiably and demonstrably explain anything at all?

 

[sandwiches]

Explain talent and difference of personality. Why are we here? Survival is your purpose in life?

We don't know. Now, if you think you know, then I'd like for you to please bring forth verifiable and demonstrable evidence independent of belief.

 

[super animator]

Again, why isn't this in the philosophy section?

 

[HosannaHM]

you know, we offered to discuss some things earlier, why dont you deal with those instead of bringing up new stuff?

Even reptiles have individual personalities. Everyone has seen talent differences in dogs.

Do you think all animals will be exactly the same? What is to "explain"?

I don't mind you explaining things to me at all. In fact I enjoy reading it. The problem is you usually want me to admit to being wrong and you being correct.

I don't believe you are fully correct, just like you with me.

 

[mzungu]

I find it weird you won't give me a straight answer

You are making the mistake of using logic as a guide in seeking an answer that is based on faith! It is like asking: "How do you go from liking a woman to actually loving her".

You are asking the question in a wrong way! Besides if someone believes in a god then there is nothing to ask other than how one came to believe in this God.

 

[Hespera]

I don't mind you explaining things to me at all. In fact I enjoy reading it. The problem is you usually want me to admit to being wrong and you being correct.

I don't believe you are fully correct, just like you with me.

But Im glad to hear you do read what I say.

Earlier you had some ideas about noahs ark, i responded and you never let me know if you saw it, understood it, or had questions.

Im not looking to get people to "admit they are wrong" at least not in principle, tho when im right and they are wrong, it would be nice if i felt like i got thru and they could see it. You have some odd ideas about biology and geology, and I would be interested to see if you would be willing to learn where your ideas are off.

 

[Doveaman]

show anything that can be created, made, done without the physical body/brain to do it.

Show anything that can be created, made, done without the nonphysical “will” to do it.

Your "will" is just the word you use to describe that which you can't name in any other way. It's the amalgam of your brain and that which your brain and your experiences have created, your "self".

The human “will” has to do with our desires and the choices we freely make to fulfill those desires, whether to go left or right. When the choice is made in the mind in accordance with our “will” the brain responds to our “will” by driving the body in the direction we have chosen, whether left or right.

This is an entirely physical phenomenon.

Then prove it, don’t just claim it.

Can you reproduce the physical processes in the brain that generate the human “will”?

 

[Doveaman]

Nobody understands everything about how a TV works.

The manufacturers do.

Nobody knows everything about how a brain works either.

The Manufacturer does.

Statements of fact not in evidence get into the thin ice of false witnessing, dont you think?

Only of it’s false.

There could be something nonphysical but in the total complete and utter lack of the slightest scrap of evidence, it remains only a possibility that could possibly be demonstrated as fact.

At least you are willing to admit the possibility of something nonphysical. Not many others do.

But you say its a fact..dont you?

Do I?

What is it that makes you comfortable stating as true facts that are not in evidence? Seriously, is there anything in your sense of ethics, morality, t-ruthfulness or your religion that argues against doing that?

I suppose you would like me to deny God being a true fact too, right? Sorry.