For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[Upisoft]

OR -- you choose to have it backwards. Why would the brain generate a particular output unless it received a particular input?

Like the signal that makes your heart beat? I wonder...

 

[HosannaHM]

Yes, an human will comes from physical components. What physical components does God emerge from?

His creation

 

[sandwiches]

His creation

So, God emerged from the universe? This is definitely a new one. I've heard that God is the universe, that God created the universe but never that the universe created God.

 

[Hespera]

Maybe they do. Maybe they don’t. Do you have any research papers on the study of the human “will”?
I think it’s a safe assumption for the moment considering that the human “will” has been experienced but never physically detected apart from its effects on the human brain and body.

Since the human "will" has never been physically detected but has an effect on the human body we can assume that its effect on the human body is achieved through the chemical/electrical activities of the human brain.
I don’t have a clue. I’m only speaking of man created in God’s image. Only man has a human “will” that is somewhat similar in nature to God’s divine “will”. And we are all faced with the freedom of “will” to choose to follow God’s “will” or our own human “will”.

This is why for the Christian, “he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.” - 1 Peter 4:2.

Maybe they do. Maybe they don’t. Do you have any research papers on the study of the human “will”?

Good question to ask yourself, since you claim to know things beyond what anyone else knows on this subject.

but never physically detected apart from its effects on the human brain and body.

Never detected is right. That is an argument for its non existence outside of.

Since the human "will" has never been physically detected but has an effect on the human body we can assume that its effect on the human body is achieved through the chemical/electrical activities of the human brain.

No, you are starting with the assumption that it is something separate.

Im starting with the assumption that we dont understand it, it could possibly be non physical, but we have some information..... NONE of which indicates a non physical aspect.

I don’t have a clue.

Im sure you dont, Did you ever bother to think about it? Other animals move about, make decisions, feel pain, have emotions, make choices.

So is that all some supernatural non physical "will' that they all have too?

I’m only speaking of man created in God’s image

'course, its just your unfounded assertion of opinion about "gods image".

Oh btw, i dont live for evil desires, and i dont need someone's story of a "god" to tell me not to.

 

[HosannaHM]

So, God emerged from the universe? This is definitely a new one. I've heard that God is the universe, that God created the universe but never that the universe created God.

No no my good man, he reveals himself through His creation. Thus He can emerge from it but He still created it.

Just a visual characteristic for ya

 

[sandwiches]

No no my good man, he reveals himself through His creation. Thus He can emerge from it but He still created it.

Just a visual characteristic for ya

Then you misunderstood what I meant earlier. I didn't say anything about being revealed. I said that human will emerges, as in is created in the brain, and I asked if God is created from physical components as well.

 

[HosannaHM]

Oh btw, i dont live for evil desires, and i dont need someone's story of a "god" to tell me not to.

Hmm... how does one concieve what good vs. evil is? What sets the standard because one culture's good can also be another culture's evil.

 

[HosannaHM]

Then you misunderstood what I meant earlier. I didn't say anything about being revealed. I said that human will emerges, as in is created in the brain, and I asked if God is created from physical components as well.

Touche' mon ami I understand sorry bout that

 

[Hespera]

No no my good man, he reveals himself through His creation. Thus He can emerge from it but He still created it.

Just a visual characteristic for ya

revealed thru creation. yes.

When you have thought this thru, and that will involve some careful study of that which is around you-call it creation if you like- you will find that
this creation took hundreds of millions of years, that life evolved during that time, and maybe least of all in that, that no world wide flood ever occurred.


i sort of hope you will, it seems to me a shame to live among such interesting wonders and not be able to see it.

 

[Hespera]

Hmm... how does one concieve what good vs. evil is? What sets the standard because one culture's good can also be another culture's evil.

is this a serious q or a rhetorical one? i have thoughts to offer but I dont care to spend much time in response to a rhetorical question.

I hope this isnt by way of saying that you believe in moral absolutes handed down by god, that all true morality is derived from the christian god.

We are all of course aware of differences in cultures, and within cultures over time. it was only very recently that it occurred to Americans that others than white males have a moral right to equality.

That evolved of course, out of reflection and experience, not out of something that god said to do.


How do you think one conceives of good and evil?

 

[SkyWriting]

That wasn't my question. My question was - what makes you go from believing in god, to believing in the god of the bible

It wasn't about if he created the world or not

Your not explaining your question enough to get a "straight answer". In my case, I was looking for Truth. Knowing science was full liars who concocted a slipshod system of honoring those who squealed on the lies of others, I was looking for a better explanation for man's existence. The Bible has no lies in it so the God of the Bible won out.

 

[Nathan Poe]

The Bible has no lies in it so the God of the Bible won out.

Now that's funny.

 

[HosannaHM]

is this a serious q or a rhetorical one? i have thoughts to offer but I dont care to spend much time in response to a rhetorical question.

I hope this isnt by way of saying that you believe in moral absolutes handed down by god, that all true morality is derived from the christian god.

We are all of course aware of differences in cultures, and within cultures over time. it was only very recently that it occurred to Americans that others than white males have a moral right to equality.

That evolved of course, out of reflection and experience, not out of something that god said to do.


How do you think one conceives of good and evil?

It wasn't rhetorical, however you gave me an answer either way so it doesn't really matter.

Since my beliefs line up with the Christian God, then yes I think a sense of morality comes from the Bible.

Cultures don't evolve, they change. I don't believe in evolution, and no one can prove it so that's contradicting to what you have told me about beliefs. Evolution is a belief.

 

[Hespera]

It wasn't rhetorical, however you gave me an answer either way so it doesn't really matter.

Since my beliefs line up with the Christian God, then yes I think a sense of morality comes from the Bible.

Cultures don't evolve, they change. I don't believe in evolution, and no one can prove it so that's contradicting to what you have told me about beliefs. Evolution is a belief.

I wonder why you abandoned your noahs ark thread and didnt respond to answers to some of your questions.

i think you might be interesting to talk to, and perhaps its possible you will see some things you dont now see.


You believe morality comes from god, and yet we find morality in cultures that in no way acknowledge your god. But as we cannot show that god does or does not exist, and i find arguments on that tiresome, we can skip it.

lets do some things here that are simple and easily approached.

Definitions of evolve on the Web:

• develop: gain through experience;

"Evolve" and change are the same thing here. Cultures change; they evolve. In any case my point was that cultures and morality differ not just by place, but over time, its quite different in the USA now from a hundred years ago. Evolve / change, this is true, is it not?

Now regarding evolution... i agree that you dont believe in it.

And sure enough its because you think it is a belief.

Its a bit like with calculus. You might look at a chalkboard with odd squiggles and say "I dont believe that makes sense or is really math'

The mathematician will not agree that its just a case of who believes what.

Regarding proof: You can drop saying that it cannot be proven. Anyone with a lick of sense knows theory and law in science cannot be proven.

For practical purposes tho its a meaningless thing to say.

Analogy: in court, things are proven beyond reasonable doubt. So, lets say there is the videotape, the confession, the witnesses, literally millions of pieces of unfalsifiable evidence. Is the case proven? No. is it meaningful to bring that up as an argument for innocence?

do you understand why it is meaningless for you to bring up "proof" in this connection, about evolution or anything in science?

If not i will be glad to explain further.

I have no idea what you think I contradicted. i dont do that.



so lets see.

"evolve" do you agree that I used that word correctly and that cultures evolve?

"proof' do you see why bringing that up really doesnt mean anything?

"belief" do you understand that the ToE is a theory that unfalsifiably (so far) explains all known relevant data?

do you understand how that is not the same as "belief" in that which cannot be seen, or any way detected, and has no data to support it?
(ala, faith / belief in god)

ToE is a scientific theory, which is not synonymous with "belief". Your statement there is factually incorrect.

 

[Doveaman]

We have evidence that, like every single other known process, "human will" emerges from physical components.

Care to give a demonstration of how this is possible?

So, where's your evidence that it's nonphysical that contradicts everything we know of processes, electrical signal, chemistry, etc?

Can you provide evidence of electrical signals or chemistry making a freewill decision?

You can put them into whatever combination to choose as long as they produce the desired result - "freewill decision".

Yes, an human will comes from physical components.

Then we are nothing but robots who are just responding to electro/chemical impulses from a well constructed brain. I don’t think so.

The brain consists of physical components, and we know that the “will” drives the body through those components, but we do not know that the “will” itself is driven by those components. An electrically driven “will” sounds too robotic for my taste.

What physical components does God emerge from?

What I have are the physical components through which God works to ‘drive’ the body. That’s about just as much evidence you have for the human “will”.

“For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose.” - Phil 2:13.

God’s “will” unites with the Christian's “will” and works through the physical components of the Christian's brain to drive the Christian's body to “act” according to God’s “will”.

 

[Doveaman]

Like the signal that makes your heart beat? I wonder...

My physical heart does not move me to choose to take my car to work instead of taking the bus. My “will” does.

 

[Ar Cosc]

So do animals have this nonphysical "will"?

 

[Doveaman]

Good question to ask yourself, since you claim to know things beyond what anyone else knows on this subject.

Maybe they don’t know because they are relying on science to explain something nonphysical, so it makes sense they wouldn’t know.

Never detected is right. That is an argument for its non existence outside of.

It supports my argument more than it does yours.

No, you are starting with the assumption that it is something separate.

It is a valid assumption since you cannot detect the “will” in the brain.

Im starting with the assumption that we dont understand it, it could possibly be non physical, but we have some information..... NONE of which indicates a non physical aspect.

What you have are effects, not cause.

Can you or anyone re-create the human "will”? or a machine, perhaps, that can intentionally choose to act contrary to the way it was designed to act? a machine like this one?

This would show that you at least have an idea of what’s going on in the human brain regarding the human “will”.

Im sure you dont, Did you ever bother to think about it? Other animals move about, make decisions, feel pain, have emotions, make choices. So is that all some supernatural non physical "will' that they all have too?

I have no reason to believe there isn’t a nonphysical component to the brain of those animals you described. Call it “animal will” if you like, because it’s certainly not human.

'course, its just your unfounded assertion of opinion about "gods image".

It’s good to have a solid reference point in life to remind us of who we are and not think we are mere animals working off of mere electricity.

Oh btw, i dont live for evil desires, and i dont need someone's story of a "god" to tell me not to.

Evil is not just a matter of committing heinous crimes, it’s also a matter of not following God’s “will”.

There are some very “nice” people out there (perhaps you are one of them) who do not follow God’s “will”, and that’s not good enough.

From God’s perspective, “all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” - Isa 64:6.

 

[Doveaman]

So do animals have this nonphysical "will"?

Animals do not have a human "will".

I wouldn't go as far as to call it "animal will" since I don't know how animals think. But I do believe there is a nonphysical component to the brain of the animals Hespera described.

 

[Ar Cosc]

Animals do not have a human "will".

I wouldn't go as far as to call it "animal will" since I don't know how animals think. But I do believe there is a nonphysical component to the brain of the animals Hespera described.

But there's not really any behaviour demonstrated by humans that is not demonstrated by animals to some degree. We can see the neurons firing in the brain when someone is hungry, to create the "will" to find food, or the "will" to find a mate when they are fertile. There's no need for anything nonphysical, and no evidence that such a thing exists.