For the sake of argument, let's say God exists

[Skavau]

That is how many of the conclusions are made "someone says something, then someone passes it along who likes it and thinks it "fits" in with what they want to conclude and so they pass it on and the next someone passes it along and pretty soon someone is drawing a picture and saying this is how it is and the next person sees that beautiful picture and says this should be in a science book and then a group of someones says, "hey this can fly let's do a few tests on this and see how many doctors we can see who do this" and then when they find a few they conclude it as a FACT and then they write a paper on it and it gets in the news and then the public finds out and the multitudes start to believe it and it gets copied and pasted all over the web and then someone comes on to search a little because they want to see if it is true and they are inundated with so many articles that say it is so that they say, "SEE it is true" and they begin to disbelieve the truth and say "IT is false, just go to Wikipedia and read it"

That's the pseudo-method that Answers in Genesis uses, not actual science. Also I cannot help but observe some projection here. I'll point it out in the following, uh, 'paragraph':

Pretty soon whole generations are following, at best, a misunderstanding of the facts. That is what I see.

This is projection on a major scale. I have yet to see any real indication that you know anything about the biological theory of evolution.

People just accepting conclusions without verifying or researching and in most case NOT being able to verify because there is no longer any of the ORIGINAL testing but only EVIDENCE so called, that has been tainted, dressed up and packaged to sell. Whenever anyone tries to show something different they are pounced upon and labeled LIARS, IDIOTS, CRIMINALS and they are shunned by their peers.

This is yet more projection. In your second, actual, paragraph of this post you suggested that Ar Cosc is a liar and if not a liar then someone deluded enough to believe a lie. There is also the obvious reality that you necessarily label the entire human race as criminals (born in sin, or recipients of a sin infested lifestyle) and have been on record as labelling atheism as the "dark side".

So 'tis better to shut up and accept what EVERYBODY else believes and keep your buddies when deep inside you KNOW something is wrong with the scenarios out there. OR as in some cases just blindly accepting and never questioning.

And there we go again. You suggest that Ar Cosc deep down knows that he is lying.

Why try so hard NOT to believe in a loving God who WANTS to heal people? He has only ONE requirement that you believe Him and what He has done for you. What is so wrong with that? I don't get it.

Briefly, I'll summarise the moral reasons. That God's criteria for healing people is immoral. He apparently will only heal (by your statistics) 1% of the population and will do so only on the basis of their extremely strong faith. Nevermind the billions of devoted Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastarians, Taoists across the planet. He will heal only those who specifically worship and devote themselves to him to a specific standard. Nevermind well-intentioned non-theists that live their lives as altruistic and as well-meaning as they can being in a 'sin nature'. It is an immoral claim and deserves no glory.

 

[Inan3]

yes, all that plus ten bucks will get you bagel 'n joe somewhere.

Once again, Hespera, such profound content. Cute though (even though all that vicious hate and bigotry comes through loud and clear) You might fool a few of the guys on here but you don't fool me. Have a good day.

 

[Inan3]

Wow, just think, 40+ years down the drain.

It's rather sad to see someone can live for so long and learn so little. You are, ironically, a lesson to us all.

Some things count more in life than others. In the long run it is only what is done with and for God that will have any relevance. I have a blessed and joyful life and wouldn't have it any other way, except I might help others to join me. I know I won't win them all but I will help as many as possible who will respond. This natural life is over in just a few short years. My purpose is to help as many as I can to find ETERNAL life and to me that out shines the noblest of professions here on the earth. I live a great life now and look forward to an even better one eternally with a God Who has created everything that any of us know or see AND promises to continue to show us His wonders and creations. While you may NEVER see the complete universe and beyond, I have a hope that I will up close and personal. While you have nothing to look forward to but death (at this point) I only look forward to life. That keeps my perspective alive and joyful. The only thing you have to look forward to is your next jab or attack on a believer. Sorry I choose my life. I love my life and I love my God. I am a happy and content person at peace with the life I have. EVEN if you were right, (and don't get excited I don't believe you are but for your sake I say it) I haven't lost because I'm happy and free and blessed and my prayers get answered somehow.

 

[Hespera]

Once again, Hespera, such profound content. Cute though (even though all that vicious hate and bigotry comes through loud and clear) You might fool a few of the guys on here but you don't fool me. Have a good day.

Note the post above yours. im not the only one who can see projection. do you know what projection is? In this case it is seeing hate (vicious) and bigotry in the other person when you are the source.

A lot of older women get quite resentful of women who are younger and better educated. You give yourself away with this... fool a few of the guys

 

[Cabal]

actually, i never meant to imply that any particular amputee is directly responsible for his own loss of limb. if i kill you, genuinely repent and ask god for a miraculous restoration, he will not raise you back from the dead. that is the consequence. not your fault, but one that i bear nonetheless. if i'm truly repentant, it will haunt me even if god has forgiven me.

but as for you, or some amputee who lost a limb by someone else's violence, these sufferings are a result of sin itself...of which we are all guilty, biblically speaking. the natural response would lead us to imprison or kill the offender, which doesn't help much. the biblical response teaches us to forgive, which heals us psychologically from the anger and should lead the offender to repent.

both the natural and the biblical response to actually dealing with the amputee is to treat them medically, by the way. i have heard stories of non medical healing, but they're of course hard to prove. i won't begrudge anyone a miracle in their life if it so happens, but i'm pretty sure jesus gives a to doctors.

I see where you're coming from more now, and with regard to your point about the "fairy godmother" god I have a few points:

1. I don't think it's especially unreasonable to think that God will miraculously heal as it's given explicitly as a sign for those who believe in him, and that was the word of Christ, not an epistle-writer pontificating.

2. I don't see why "trumping consequences" is such a no-no when the whole notion of Christianity is trumping a consequence.

3. The point about amputees as I see it isn't necessarily about a fairy godmother god, but more about how the statistics for claimed miraculous healings are no better than those for which no supernatural intervention was sought.

 

[Cabal]

IF that be the case why doesn't the doctor say you have 10% chance of living. Why TAKE AWAY the hope? That doesn't make any sense. That is just someone trying to diminish the FACT that when a person turns to God and they ARE MIRACULOUSLY healed, (sometimes instantaneously) it demonstrates the reality of GOD.

Nope, it's correlative at best, not necessarily causative.

This reasoning only demonstrates the FACT that men CHOOSE to believe. They would CHOOSE to believe a lie rather than to believe in God. That is a made up lie with no statistics behind it. You have drawn something out of a hat to disprove the miraculous.

While I would like to see Ar Cosc back his claim up, myself, as I would have thought if the odds are actually that bad and nothing could be done you would want to try and get the old placebo effect going....

That is how many of the conclusions are made "someone says something, then someone passes it along who likes it and thinks it "fits" in with what they want to conclude and so they pass it on and the next someone passes it along and pretty soon someone is drawing a picture and saying this is how it is and the next person sees that beautiful picture and says this should be in a science book and then a group of someones says, "hey this can fly let's do a few tests on this and see how many doctors we can find who do this" and then when they find a few they conclude it as a FACT and then they write a paper on it and it gets in the news and then the public finds out and the multitudes start to believe it and it gets copied and pasted all over the web and then someone comes on to search a little because they want to see if it is true and they are inundated with so many articles which say it is so, that they say, "SEE it is true. I saw it on Wikipedia" and they begin to disbelieve the truth and say "IT is false, just go to Wikipedia and read it" Pretty soon whole generations are following, at best, a misunderstanding of the facts. That is what I see. People just accepting conclusions without verifying or researching and in most case NOT being able to verify because there is no longer any of the ORIGINAL testing but only EVIDENCE so called, that has been tainted, dressed up and packaged to sell. Whenever anyone tries to show something different they are pounced upon and labeled as LIARS, IDIOTS, CRIMINALS and they are shunned by their peers.

...this is a total non sequitur, and is frankly a misrepresentation of an entire profession. People are asking that your facts be verifiable - and so far, they aren't.

THUS very few dare to "rock the boat" or go against the flow, fearing their own livelihood and careers. So 'tis better to shut up and accept what EVERYBODY else believes and keep your buddies, when deep inside you KNOW something is wrong with the scenarios out there but you suppress and eventually you begin to believe it yourself and doubt all your doubts. OR as in some cases just blindly accepting and never questioning.

Or alternatively - you're wrong. Simples!

Why try so hard NOT to believe in a loving God who WANTS to heal people? He has only ONE requirement that you believe Him and what He has done for you. What is so wrong with that? I don't get it.

The tiny flaw is he doesn't heal people. All you see are weak correlations that are scarcely better outcomes than those who don't seek spiritual healing. Belief is utterly irrelevant to the matter.

 

[Cabal]

He didn't say "NO" or "WAIT"?

It's funny how you can pray to anything and get a yes, no, or wait answer.

 

[Cabal]

Or apparently if he doesn't answer at all. Call them demands or prayers, it doesn't matter as his selection criteria is beyond reprehensible. He would ignore those in dire need purely for their lack of faith or misplaced faith just to cure the ear infection of his beloved 1%.

This is my issue with the whole deal, if you actually want to help heal people, why set the bar so unnecessarily high?

We wouldn't tolerate a medic who will only heal you if you can write him a limerick in Urdu, so let's all be consistent here and not tolerate the idea of a deity with equivalently unattainable criteria.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's funny how you can pray to anything and get a yes, no, or wait answer.

No, you can't.

 

[Cabal]

No, you can't.

Sure you can. Yes, no, or wait effectively describes all outcomes of any request made for any desire you may have. So you can pray to your dog for the same thing and the same set of outcomes are possible.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sure you can. Yes, no, or wait effectively describes all outcomes of any request made for any desire you may have. So you can pray to your dog for the same thing and the same set of outcomes are possible.

Again -- no, you can't.

You might want to read what you said earlier.

Let me highlight an important point that your zeal to be cute overlooked:

It's funny how you can pray to anything and get a yes, no, or wait answer.

 

[Cabal]

Again -- no, you can't.

You might want to read what you said earlier.

Let me highlight an important point that your zeal to be cute overlooked:

Doesn't change my point. If you think that "get an answer" does not imply "be given an answer" or whatever, I don't really care. The notion of prayer being answered is nothing more than an illusion. "Yes, no, wait" covers every single possible outcome of any request you can think of to pray, and praying to any entity produces practically the same results as if you'd never prayed at all.

 

[AV1611VET]

Doesn't change my point.

Of course it doesn't -- you Internet scientists need evidence for that.

 

[Cabal]

Of course it doesn't -- you Internet scientists need evidence for that.

Actually, AV, I'd settle for a logical explanation of why that highlight makes any darn difference at all.

Now, stop obfuscating - the set of answers "yes, no, wait" apply to all outcomes, right? And the attribution to your deity of choice is always done by the adherent asking it, yes?

 

[Skavau]

So rather than focusing on the important point of a God that heals wounds based solely on obedience to the especially devoted AV is instead focusing on a purely semantic issue as to what the options could be for those who pray.

 

[AV1611VET]

Actually, AV, I'd settle for a logical explanation of why that highlight makes any darn difference at all.

I can't believe you can't tell the difference.

Your cutsie post made it sound like a person can pray to a log, and the log respond with YES, NO, or WAIT.

If you disagree, go back and read it again.

 

[Delphiki]

I can't believe you can't tell the difference.

Your cutsie post made it sound like a person can pray to a log, and the log respond with YES, NO, or WAIT.

If you disagree, go back and read it again.

I don't see a problem with that, as God "responds" in the same exact manner a log would, provided you believed in that log hard enough.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't see a problem with that...

I understand.

 

[Inan3]

Note the post above yours. im not the only one who can see projection. do you know what projection is? In this case it is seeing hate (vicious) and bigotry in the other person when you are the source.

A lot of older women get quite resentful of women who are younger and better educated. You give yourself away with this... fool a few of the guys

Oh it doesn't end!!! I cannot believe your over indulgence of yourself!! It is so sad!! So sad!! You must be careful for in another life you will probably come back as a dirt eating, trailer trash foraging, WORM just to teach you to be humble because you sure are not learning it in this life. Be humble little worm be humble!!

I don't resent you but I feel sorry for you, Hespera.

 

[Inan3]

I don't see a problem with that, as God "responds" in the same exact manner a log would, provided you believed in that log hard enough.

One day you will.