For the open-minded objective Bible student

[sovereigngrace]

During the 1990s-, I wrote 3 books on Irish secret societies and was planning next to put a book together in support Premillennialism. After 6 months, I ended up abandoning my Premillennialism because every passage I objectively and openly looked at was final and climactic. 2 Peter 3 was the first passage that caused me to question my Premillennialism in 2000. I want to look a little bit closer at it and ask you to consider some often-overlooked points.

2 Peter 3:3-15 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

• Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
• These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
• The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s coming.
• It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
• This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
• The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
• We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
• What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
• The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
• What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
• The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
• The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

 

[eleos1954]

During the 1990s-, I wrote 3 books on Irish secret societies and was planning next to put a book together in support Premillennialism. After 6 months, I ended up abandoning my Premillennialism because every passage I objectively and openly looked at was final and climactic. 2 Peter 3 was the first passage that caused me to question my Premillennialism in 2000. I want to look a little bit closer at it and ask you to consider some often-overlooked points.

2 Peter 3:3-15 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.”

We glean a lot of helpful detail here relating to what happens to the creature and creation when Jesus comes, and what immediately follows. If we are able to divorce ourselves from what we have been taught, we are looking at a very climactic picture.

• Unquestionably, the focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
• These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of his coming.”
• The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s coming.
• This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
• The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
• We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
• What happens to creation? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
• The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
• What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
• The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
• The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

I would disagree with you slightly ....

• They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

There are 2 resurrections .... the 1st is obviously when the Lord returns. Makes sense that the saved will be resurrected first. They are taken to heaven for the 1,000 years.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Berean Study Bible
Do you not know that we will judge angels (fallen ones)? How much more the things of this life!

Then the 2nd resurrection happens (of the lost) after the 1,000 years.

Now ... some do claim that Jesus was the 1st resurrection .... however .... I don't see that to be biblically correct.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned (future), but gather the wheat into my barn (the saved - go to heaven - first resurrection).

The unsaved living at the time are destroyed and lay dead on the earth ... the unsaved dead remain in their grave.

2 Thessalonians 2:8

Berean Literal Bible
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming,

After the 1,000 years all the unsaved are resurrected and then things play out from there and they are all destroyed along with the earth and everything in it .... THEN ... God makes a new heaven and a new earth .... and the saved inherit it.

Point is .... everybody gets resurrected ... IF ... we are to inherit the earth at His return ... then the the unsaved haven't been dealt with.

Revelation 19:17

17THEN I SAW AN ANGEL STANDING IN THE SUN, AND HE CRIED OUT IN A LOUD VOICE TO ALL THE BIRDS FLYING OVERHEAD, “COME, GATHER TOGETHER FOR THE GREAT SUPPER OF GOD, 18 SO THAT YOU MAY EAT THE FLESH OF KINGS AND COMMANDERS AND MIGHTY MEN, OF HORSES AND RIDERS, OF EVERYONE SLAVE AND FREE, SMALL AND GREAT.

19THEN I SAW THE BEAST AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH WITH THEIR ARMIES ASSEMBLED TO WAGE WAR AGAINST THE ONE SEATED ON THE HORSE, AND AGAINST HIS ARMY. 20BUT THE BEAST WAS CAPTURED ALONG WITH THE FALSE PROPHET, WHO ON ITS BEHALF HAD PERFORMED SIGNS DECEIVING THOSE WHO HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND WORSHIPED ITS IMAGE. BOTH THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET WERE THROWN ALIVE INTO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR. 21AND THE REST WERE KILLED WITH THE SWORD THAT PROCEEDED FROM THE MOUTH OF THE ONE SEATED ON THE HORSE.

AND ALL THE BIRDS GORGED THEMSELVES ON THEIR FLESH.

The birds can't gorge on flesh IF the earth is entirely destroyed and made new upon His return.

 

[SeventyOne]

It is Isaiah 65 that tells us there is sin and death after the creation of the new heaven and new earth.

Isaiah 65:17, 20 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind....No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.​

In these verses, we find the new heavens and new earth. We also find both the young and old, and sin and death.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I would disagree with you slightly ....



There are 2 resurrections .... the 1st is obviously when the Lord returns. Makes sense that the saved will be resurrected first. They are taken to heaven for the 1,000 years.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Berean Study Bible
Do you not know that we will judge angels (fallen ones)? How much more the things of this life!

Then the 2nd resurrection happens (of the lost) after the 1,000 years.

Now ... some do claim that Jesus was the 1st resurrection .... however .... I don't see that to be biblically correct.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned (future), but gather the wheat into my barn (the saved - go to heaven - first resurrection).

The unsaved living at the time are destroyed and lay dead on the earth ... the unsaved dead remain in their grave.

2 Thessalonians 2:8

Berean Literal Bible
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming,

After the 1,000 years all the unsaved are resurrected and then things play out from there and they are all destroyed along with the earth and everything in it .... THEN ... God makes a new heaven and a new earth .... and the saved inherit it.

Point is .... everybody gets resurrected ... IF ... we are to inherit the earth at His return ... then the the unsaved haven't been dealt with.

Revelation 19:17

17THEN I SAW AN ANGEL STANDING IN THE SUN, AND HE CRIED OUT IN A LOUD VOICE TO ALL THE BIRDS FLYING OVERHEAD, “COME, GATHER TOGETHER FOR THE GREAT SUPPER OF GOD, 18 SO THAT YOU MAY EAT THE FLESH OF KINGS AND COMMANDERS AND MIGHTY MEN, OF HORSES AND RIDERS, OF EVERYONE SLAVE AND FREE, SMALL AND GREAT.

19THEN I SAW THE BEAST AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH WITH THEIR ARMIES ASSEMBLED TO WAGE WAR AGAINST THE ONE SEATED ON THE HORSE, AND AGAINST HIS ARMY. 20BUT THE BEAST WAS CAPTURED ALONG WITH THE FALSE PROPHET, WHO ON ITS BEHALF HAD PERFORMED SIGNS DECEIVING THOSE WHO HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND WORSHIPED ITS IMAGE. BOTH THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET WERE THROWN ALIVE INTO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR. 21AND THE REST WERE KILLED WITH THE SWORD THAT PROCEEDED FROM THE MOUTH OF THE ONE SEATED ON THE HORSE.

AND ALL THE BIRDS GORGED THEMSELVES ON THEIR FLESH.

The birds can't gorge on flesh IF the earth is entirely destroyed and made new upon His return.

Can we keep to the text in view? Let it speak for itself. You are trying to explain it away by your faulty view of Revelation 20. Premils want to explain away all the climactic Scriptures in the Bible with their opinion of one highly symbolic chapter, 3 chapters before the end of the Bible, in the most obscure setting in Scripture, in the most debated chapter in the Bible. This is horrible hermeneutics! You do not explain away the clear, explicit and repeated by the difficult, symbolic and obscure. You do the opposite. What is more: Premils do not have one single passage in the rest of the Bible to corroborate Rev 20. This is telling!

For example, Revelation 19 is as equally destructive as 2 Peter 3. There are no survivors. There is no one to populate the supposed Premil future millennium.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is Isaiah 65 that tells us there is sin and death after the creation of the new heaven and new earth.

Isaiah 65:17, 20 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind....No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.​

In these verses, we find the new heavens and new earth. We also find both the young and old, and sin and death.

You too fail to address the passage in view. This is how Premil survives - avoid the constant climactic Scripture, and dismiss it (or override it) with their opinion of one lone chapter located in the most figurative setting in Scripture, that involves several definite symbolic recaps.

 

[BABerean2]

It is Isaiah 65 that tells us there is sin and death after the creation of the new heaven and new earth.

Isaiah 65:17, 20 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind....No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.​

In these verses, we find the new heavens and new earth. We also find both the young and old, and sin and death.

Context, Context, Context...

The passage begins with the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth, and ends with a verse which contains a removal of the curse.

Verse 19 says there will be no more crying.

Therefore, verse 20 begins with a negative statement.
None of the things after the word "thence" will be found in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

It is as if someone said "There will be no more... mosquitoes, ticks, spiders, etc.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is Isaiah 65 that tells us there is sin and death after the creation of the new heaven and new earth.

Isaiah 65:17, 20 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind....No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.​

In these verses, we find the new heavens and new earth. We also find both the young and old, and sin and death.

You have obviously not looked at the original Hebrew.

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not become thence more babe days, old man after

What is this telling us?

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not reach your days like the child old an hundred years die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more aging, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of ageing and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”

 

[SeventyOne]

Context, Context, Context...

The passage begins with the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth, and ends with a verse which contains a removal of the curse.

Verse 19 says there will be no more crying.

Therefore, verse 20 begins with a negative statement.
None of the things after the word "thence" will be found in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

It is as if someone said "There will be no more... mosquitoes, ticks, spiders, etc.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

.

You didn't read that properly.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The 'no more' pertains to what immediately follows, "an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days". Then is states what will be in its place, "for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed"

No more short life spans, except for those accursed through sin.

 

[eleos1954]

Can we keep to the text in view? Let it speak for itself. You are trying to explain it away by your faulty view of Revelation 20. Premils want to explain away all the climactic Scriptures in the Bible with their opinion of one highly symbolic chapter, 3 chapters before the end of the Bible, in the most obscure setting in Scripture, in the most debated chapter in the Bible. This is horrible hermeneutics! You do not explain away the clear explicit and repeated by the symbolic and obscure. You do the opposite. What is more: Premils do not have one single passage in the rest of the Bible to corroborate Rev 20. This is telling!

For example, Revelation 19 is as equally destructive as 2 Peter 3. There are no survivors. There is no one to populate the supposed Premil future millennium.

It is populated by the unsaved risen dead ... at the 2nd resurrection.

Everybody who has ever lived will be resurrected .... and will be either in the 1st (all of the saved) or the 2nd (all of the lost)

Revelation 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years (in heaven). But the rest of the dead (the lost) did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

If there is a first .... then there is a 2nd.

 

[BABerean2]

You didn't read that properly.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

The 'no more' pertains to what immediately follows, "an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days". Then is states what will be in its place, "for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed"

No more short life spans, except for those accursed through sin.

Do you realize you are depending only on an English translation of the Hebrew in a single verse, to reverse everything before and after the verse?


.

 

[sovereigngrace]

It is populated by the unsaved risen dead ... at the 2nd resurrection.

Everybody who has ever lived will be resurrected .... and will be either in the 1st (all of the saved) or the 2nd (all of the lost)

Revelation 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years (in heaven). But the rest of the dead (the lost) did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

If there is a first .... then there is a 2nd.

Is there an objective Premil that would actually acknowledge the detail of the text in view and explain it?

 

[eleos1954]

Is there an objective Premil that would actually acknowledge the detail of the text in view and explain it?

Prophetic scripture needs to be taken as a whole (across His entire Word).

 

[sovereigngrace]

Prophetic scripture needs to be taken as a whole (across His entire Word).

That is the opposite to the way Premils typically approach hermeneutics in general and the age that follows in particular. Because all they have is their non-corroborative opinion of Revelation 20, they must interpret every passage in Scripture through the lens of their opinion of Revelation 20. This is absurd hermeneutics. It is hard to get them to address this Scripture that forbids your doctrine. Premil has only one string to their guitar and it is making a very monotonous sound: “what saith Revelation 20?” Amils hold to “what saith the Scripture?”

 

[eleos1954]

Lol, that is the opposite to the way Premils approach hermeneutics in general and the age that follows in particular. All they have is their faulty opinion of Revelation. It is hard to get them to address this Scripture that forbids your doctrine.

Yeah .... well ... certainly are different viewpoints ... I encourage people to consider them and let their study of scripture that they decide for themselves what proves true.

My understanding is that Premillennialism belief is that Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years .... and that is not what I am saying.

 

[SeventyOne]

Do you realize you are depending only on an English translation of the Hebrew in a single verse, to reverse everything before and after the verse?


.

There's nothing reversed. Even later in verse 25 we see that the curse of the serpent in Genesis 3:14 also continues into this time as well.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yeah .... well ... certainly are different viewpoints ... I encourage people to consider them and let their study of scripture that they decide for themselves what proves true.

My understanding is that Premillennialism belief is that Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years .... and that is not what I am saying.

How about addressing the Op? This thread is for open-minded people.

 

[sovereigngrace]

There's nothing reversed. Even later in verse 25 we see that the curse of the serpent in Genesis 3:14 also continues into this time as well.

You are avoiding the evidence. You have obviously not looked at the original Hebrew.

Let us have a literal word-by-word look at the Hebrew pertaining to Isaiah 65:20.

Lo'- yihªyeh mishaam `owd `uwl yaamiym wªzaaqeen 'ªsher
Not become thence more babe days, old man after

What is this telling us?

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

Lo'- yªmalee''et- yaamaayw Kiy hana`ar ben- mee'aah shaanaah yaamuwt
Not reach your days like the child old an hundred years die

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous. In eternity there will be no more aging or dying. It is not going to be like our corrupt age where infants eventually get old. It will not be like the here-and-now where a man could live to be an old person of a hundred years of age and then die.

This passage is actually saying the opposite to what many think. What this is saying is: there will be no more aging, curse or death on the new earth. Every glorified saints will have come to full maturity in Christ with their new perfect eternal bodies. It is the next line of Isaiah 65:20 that has confused many, because the translators have not interpreted it in a literal word-for-word sense. It is not saying there will be more babies, death and old men. It is saying the opposite to what they are alleging. It is saying that there will be no more aging: children getting old, old people and people dying! It is describing eternity to an Old Testament audience in terms they can grasp.

The new heavens and new earth will indeed be a glorious victorious perfect state where death is unknown. God is saying that the eternal state will actually be free of death for young and old alike. This passage is telling us that there will be no more death on the new earth! The Hebrew word Lo' (Strong’s 3808) means “no” or “not.” The word is a simple negation. The word is found twice in this much-debated new heavens and new earth verse.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth? Also, should the death be related to the “child” in the second phrase or the “sinner” in the third phrase? What is more, in what way should it read? I must admit, if we are to read it in its most natural way it fits perfectly with the context. So why change it? I believe it should be applied to the “child” as it should agree with the first phrase that is simply a reinforcement of the same truth. It then fits perfectly with the whole overall teaching of the prophet on the perfection and bliss of the eternal state.

No (Lo') longer will an infant become like an old man,
No (Lo') longer will a child reach one hundred and die.

The original Hebrew does not give us any reason to attribute death to the “child” in this second line. In fact, it does not fit the whole context which is evidently speaking of the removal of ageing and death on the new earth. Interpreting it as we have, seems to (1) match the original, (2) make sense to its context, and (3) taps into the thrust of what the prophet was trying to relay. We need to remind ourselves that the whole idea here is describing the incredible eternal deliverance from the curse of corruption and the joy that “the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind” on the “new earth.”

 

[sovereigngrace]

I would disagree with you slightly ....



There are 2 resurrections .... the 1st is obviously when the Lord returns. Makes sense that the saved will be resurrected first. They are taken to heaven for the 1,000 years.

1 Corinthians 6:3
Berean Study Bible
Do you not know that we will judge angels (fallen ones)? How much more the things of this life!

Then the 2nd resurrection happens (of the lost) after the 1,000 years.

Now ... some do claim that Jesus was the 1st resurrection .... however .... I don't see that to be biblically correct.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned (future), but gather the wheat into my barn (the saved - go to heaven - first resurrection).

The unsaved living at the time are destroyed and lay dead on the earth ... the unsaved dead remain in their grave.

2 Thessalonians 2:8

Berean Literal Bible
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of His mouth and will annul by the appearing of His coming,

After the 1,000 years all the unsaved are resurrected and then things play out from there and they are all destroyed along with the earth and everything in it .... THEN ... God makes a new heaven and a new earth .... and the saved inherit it.

Point is .... everybody gets resurrected ... IF ... we are to inherit the earth at His return ... then the the unsaved haven't been dealt with.

Revelation 19:17

17THEN I SAW AN ANGEL STANDING IN THE SUN, AND HE CRIED OUT IN A LOUD VOICE TO ALL THE BIRDS FLYING OVERHEAD, “COME, GATHER TOGETHER FOR THE GREAT SUPPER OF GOD, 18 SO THAT YOU MAY EAT THE FLESH OF KINGS AND COMMANDERS AND MIGHTY MEN, OF HORSES AND RIDERS, OF EVERYONE SLAVE AND FREE, SMALL AND GREAT.

19THEN I SAW THE BEAST AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH WITH THEIR ARMIES ASSEMBLED TO WAGE WAR AGAINST THE ONE SEATED ON THE HORSE, AND AGAINST HIS ARMY. 20BUT THE BEAST WAS CAPTURED ALONG WITH THE FALSE PROPHET, WHO ON ITS BEHALF HAD PERFORMED SIGNS DECEIVING THOSE WHO HAD THE MARK OF THE BEAST AND WORSHIPED ITS IMAGE. BOTH THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET WERE THROWN ALIVE INTO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR. 21AND THE REST WERE KILLED WITH THE SWORD THAT PROCEEDED FROM THE MOUTH OF THE ONE SEATED ON THE HORSE.

AND ALL THE BIRDS GORGED THEMSELVES ON THEIR FLESH.

The birds can't gorge on flesh IF the earth is entirely destroyed and made new upon His return.

Are you able to address the Op?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Context, Context, Context...

The passage begins with the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth, and ends with a verse which contains a removal of the curse.

Verse 19 says there will be no more crying.

Therefore, verse 20 begins with a negative statement.
None of the things after the word "thence" will be found in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

It is as if someone said "There will be no more... mosquitoes, ticks, spiders, etc.


Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

.

I appreciate you letting the Bible speak for itself. When you do that: God speaks not man.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Can we keep to the text in view? Let it speak for itself.

Give the man a fair go! Keep it to the O.P. 2 Peter 3:3-15