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Here are a handful of books for those who need something to debate.
https://www.amazon.com/Reason-God-Belief-Age-Skepticism/dp/1594483493/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=tim+keller,+the+reason+for+God&qid=1601913909&sr=8-2
https://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-God-Finding-Modern-ebook/dp/B01COJUG58/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=tim+keller,+the+reason+for+God&qid=1601913992&sr=8-4
Shop - John Lennox
Books – Os Guinness
Books - Official Site | CSLewis.com
Let My People Think
The problem with "arguing" to "prove" God is that it never ends.
Far more educated men, and women who have sought to argue against the existence of God, have found themselves face to face with God, when they got real, and honest. Do you have that level of genuine honesty?
It's rather interesting that in Isaiah 1:18, and Isaiah 41:1, and Isaiah 41:21, God invites us to come and reason, argue, and present our case to Him.
Not to his people. But to him, directly.
I've found in my times of wanting to argue with God, he just listens.
Job, in the old testament was a guy who had a great life, and then in one day, his entire life was turned upside down. He lost family, friends, property, cattle, etc.... It was so bad that his own wife turned against him. Indeed, his body turned against him, in that he got boils, some kind of an infection that laid him waste. So, he sat down in a pile of ash, in silence for a week.
Of all his friends and family, 4 guys whom he'd known for a long, long time heard of his misfortune, and traveled a great distance. They showed up to offer consolation. When they saw him, they were stunned beyond words. They had nothing, so they sat there, with him, in silence.....
After a week, he opened his mouth, and bemoaned the day of his birth.
The book of Job is 42 chapter. there are 4 back and forth debates, and finally, at the end, Job got exactly what he wanted--- God to show up.
Nobody knows how long this total period of time lasted for Job. How long the arguments and debates went back and forth. But his 4 best friends even accused him of doing some crime that was deserving of punishment for him to get what happened to him.
God is not afraid of your doubts, questions, mockings, etc...
He'll let you rant for as long as you want.
But arguing with strangers, on an internet forum, so you can hide behind purported intellectual superiority... it's not going to get you what you really want.
He'd rather you come talk to him.
“Come now, and let us reason together,”
Says the LORD,
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.
“Keep silence before Me, O coastlands,
And let the people renew their strength!
Let them come near, then let them speak;
Let us come near together for judgment.
“Present your case,” says the LORD.
“Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob
So..... Come talk to God.
And don't tell me you don't believe God is real. If you didn't believe God was real, you wouldn't be on a Christian website seeking arguments with total strangers about matters you don't want to know.
you're welcome.As the already converted, I find the Isaiah quote terrific, especially coming after your book suggestions .
I'm amazed I had never heard of John Lennox who is into languages and maths. Thanks!
Steve, you are getting confused. When you said, "I think it's an excuse used by those who prefer their sin over the truth." what was the excuse you were referring to? My facts are straight.good. I'm glad you're reading.
I did not state that-... YOU did.
I stated that I have heard that.
I further stated that I think it's an excuse used by those who prefer their sin over the truth.
So, please--- get your facts straight.
That's up to you.
Do you care about the truth, or your own ideas.
Preferring one's own sin includes their own ideas.
John tells us in his first letter, chapter 3---- sin is lawlessness.
I.e., sin is choosing to reject God's Law.
YHVH's Truth.
Jesus said-- I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father, except through me. John 14:6.
I'm not being critical of anyone.
I've simply stated what my observations have been for several decades, all the way back to my childhood. And I'm included in those observations.
Their belief is completely irrelevant, and unnecessary for Truth to be Truth, and the previously stated comments' veracity.
Jesus was quite clear about the matter.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
We are being invited by God, YHVH to come to Jesus, and have our condemnation wiped away, given a clean slate, to become completely new, inside out.
Or.... continue as you are, and remain under the existing condemnation.
God takes no pleasure in this condemnation the human race has been under. It's explicitly why he's given us his son. He's given his son so we may be made free from condemnation, and be adopted as sons and daughters.
So was your statement that you think people become atheists after reading the bible.Steve, you are getting confused. When you said, "I think it's an excuse used by those who prefer their sin over the truth." what was the excuse you were referring to? My facts are straight.
It's not that difficult.Do I prefer my ideas over truth? What is that supposed to mean? Everyone has ideas, it's what thinking people do, have ideas.
Not at all.You seem to let a book do your thinking for you. That's not a good idea.
Jesus said 3 things regarding Truth.And what truth are you talking about?
No. Truth is Jesus. Truth is God's Word, his Law.Is it accepting Jesus into your life, the son that you believe your god sacrificed in order to save mankind?
Perfect example of an excuse.I find it more than ironic that the biblical god reportedly had whole nations slaughtered because of their wickedness, which included child sacrifice, yet sacrifices his own son to die by crucifixion.
If that is truth, then I want no part of it.
The excuse I was referring to is that people who say they became an atheist after reading the bible simply choose to not believe God, once the Truth of God, Jesus, sin, etc... is made known to them.
And yet here you are choosing to believe that.No one chooses what they believe. They are either convinced or not convinced. I can't choose to believe God exists because the evidence does not convince me. I was once convinced but after reevaluating the evidence I became unconvinced by no choice of my own.
God has given us the wherewithal to know He does exist.Can you honestly choose God does not exist? If not, then why would you expect atheists to do this exact thing for belief in God?
Belief is not a choice. Everything we think we know is a belief with a confidence level attached. We believe something is true when we are convinced by the evidence. And being convinced of something is contingent on what our epistemology is, what criteria do we use to convince us. Different claims require different levels of evidence. If you say that you had a hamburger for dinner I would believe you without any further evidence. If you said you can walk through walls I would require more or better evidence.And yet here you are choosing to believe that.
What do you think belief is?
Nope, I have never said that. I have consistently said I want to know what is true. If God is real I want to know that but I cannot choose to believe that because I am not convinced by the evidence. It is like the question you avoided.God has given us the wherewithal to know He does exist.
Are you going to say that you don't want to know?
that's not answering my question.Belief is not a choice. Everything we think we know is a belief with a confidence level attached.
And how do you actually know what you believe is accurately perceived?We believe something is true when we are convinced by the evidence. And being convinced of something is contingent on what our epistemology is, what criteria do we use to convince us. Different claims require different levels of evidence.
If you say that you had a hamburger for dinner I would believe you without any further evidence. If you said you can walk through walls I would require more or better evidence.
When do you think I came to believe God is real, and Jesus is who he claims to be?Please answer this question. Can you choose to believe something opposite that you are convinced is true? Can you choose to believe the earth has two moons?
Then do what Jesus said.Nope, I have never said that. I have consistently said I want to know what is true. If God is real I want to know that but I cannot choose to believe that because I am not convinced by the evidence. It is like the question you avoided.
This is what I wanted to know....Can you choose to believe God does not exist?
Steve, you said, "He also made it clear that people prefer their sin over the truth, otherwise they'd have come to Him, so their deeds may be shown to be done in God's Ways."So was your statement that you think people become atheists after reading the bible.
I simply responded to that.
The excuse I was referring to is that people who say they became an atheist after reading the bible simply choose to not believe God, once the Truth of God, Jesus, sin, etc... is made known to them.
Jesus made it clear that unless we deny ourselves, and pick up our cross, we CANNOT be his followers.
He also made it clear that people prefer their sin over the truth, otherwise they'd have come to Him, so their deeds may be shown to be done in God's Ways.
Luke 14:25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
So, yeah..... the excuse is whatever the atheists use to justify themselves for avoiding coming to Jesus.
Luke 16:15And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
It's better to be justified by God, than to seek to justify ourselves, or use men's justifications for justifying ourselves.
It's not that difficult.
Do you prefer to use your own ideas to justify yourself, instead of the Truth?
Not at all.
I studied physics, and math, and programming too.
I've learned how to do all three by studying the books the professors used, and it cleared up all kinds of misconceptions, false ideas, and bad thinking, giving me a more accurate picture, allowing me to demonstrate that I can actually know the truth regarding those.
Jesus said 3 things regarding Truth.
1- I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me. John 14:6
2- God's Word is Truth. John 17:17
3- God's righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, God's law is truth. Psalm 119:142
It's known as objective Truth. by no means a popular idea, but Truth never has been popular, and has resulted in people violently opposing it for millennia.
No. Truth is Jesus. Truth is God's Word, his Law.
By turning to God, from our sin, and placing our Trust in Jesus, we align ourselves with the Truth, and benefit from Truth.
Perfect example of an excuse.
Corrupt, and twist what actually happen, and then use that to justify why you want nothing to do with God.
Kudos!
It's a pity that you never actually paid attention to that part of the bible. There are several explanations, all of which are contained within the bible for what happened there.
They actually had to be freed every seventh year under God's rules, which was better than most nations. However your point about doing God's will is strong. God's will is that christians relate by strengthening each others' gifts. Because non believers see this isn't being done it is surely not sensible to aspire to join. I think Steve's potential real audience is people like me not you.... telling you who you could enslave and who you couldn't ...
Let me stop you right there. I have certainly heard that there are plenty of rational arguments for the existence of God. Well, as I have reminded @ISteveB , this is the forum where Christians are expected to present them. I have seen many of them over the years, and always found them to be logically flawed. So if you have an argument for the existence of God that you think is rational, please present it; and then either you will learn that it does not pass muster, or I will learn that there is an argument for God's existence.There are plenty of rational arguments for the existence of God, since God is the absolute of love and logic.
You're partly right. I'm not paying an awful lot of attention to your Bible quotes because this is a debating forum, not a podium for you to preach from.So you're just not paying attention.
See?Your disbelief doesn't matter.
Prove it.It's true, and it carries with it an inherent power that gives life to those who believe, and increases wrath to the already existing condemnation to those who disbelieve.
Prove it.Your unbelief will leave you in your present state. Condemned, and under increasing wrath.
Let me set you straight:Nobody is forcing you to be on a Christian website where the truth is made known.
Actually, that's exactly what the Apologetics Forum is for. You may think of it as "esoteric ideas", but this forum actually exists for debating purposes.We who follow Jesus aren't here so you can debate esoteric ideas.
The very existence of christianity is for the sole purpose of knowing God, as Father, and Jesus as brother.
It's not so you can feel like you have that one straw on the proverbial camel's back to win, and definitively prove that God is not real.
Now this is a good question. For clarification, what do you mean by accurately perceived? How do we know what we know? or How can we have confidence in what we know?And how do you actually know what you believe is accurately perceived?
Not unless you provide enough evidence to where I actually think you may be able to do it. I wouldn't waste my time and money just on your word.And the question becomes--- If I told you I'd walked through walls, and I'd be willing to show you, as well as show you how I did it, would you be willing to travel to where I am, and observe the event take place?
I have no idea.When do you think I came to believe God is real, and Jesus is who he claims to be?
Before or after God made himself known to me?
Do you think I believed God was real, before I asked him to make himself known to me?
I earnestly did for many years.Then do what Jesus said.
It is impossible to believe something without being convinced by evidence. So, if the bible says we must believe first, then God is asking all of us to do something that is impossible.This is what I wanted to know....
You don't understand the nature of biblical belief.
This is only partly about believing God is real.
It's also about believing God.
The same way you'd believe a parent who made a promise, and would follow through keeping their promise.
This is an illogical statement. I cannot believe what a God says if I first don't believe He exists.Whether you acknowledge God's existence or not is immaterial. What's material is whether you believe Him.
Then give me the reasons to believe God is real. If you have nothing more than personal experience then fine.It's possible to believe God is real, and it means absolutely nothing. Because you don't place your trust in him to fulfill his promise to you.
I believe it was only Hebrew slaves who were given freedom, not so non-Hebrew slaves. Also, Hebrew slaves who had taken a wife during enslavement could go free, but his wife and any children would remain the property of his master. The only way he could keep his family was to have his ears tagged and remain a slave for the rest of his life.They actually had to be freed every seventh year under God's rules, which was better than most nations. However your point about doing God's will is strong. God's will is that christians relate by strengthening each others' gifts. Because non believers see this isn't being done it is surely not sensible to aspire to join. I think Steve's potential real audience is people like me not you.
Yes. That's what Jesus said in John 3:19-21.Steve, you said, "He also made it clear that people prefer their sin over the truth, otherwise they'd have come to Him, so their deeds may be shown to be done in God's Ways."
So that you may enjoy being honored by YHVH, instead of experiencing the shame and contempt your ways will bring you in eternity, as it's written in Daniel 12Why would I want to things in your god's ways?
Yeah, I find this accusation amusingly sad, and ironic.A god that had his supporters slaughter men women and children.
A god that had his own son made a human sacrifice.
The same son that said we must hate our parents and family members. A god that would condemn you for wearing mixed fabrics, but never condemned slavery, telling you who you could enslave and who you couldn't.
Those are not excuses for avoiding your god/Jesus, they are very good reasons for doing so.
I would not want to belong to a belief system where I would have to try and justify such things.
Which begs the question of why you're still talking. You excused yourself before, stating you're not interested in having the kinds of discussions I'm engaging in, so why are you still talking?You're partly right. I'm not paying an awful lot of attention to your Bible quotes because this is a debating forum, not a podium for you to preach from.
I see a lot of things, so?See?
You've proven it for me by your comments.Prove it.
Again, you've proven it for my by your comments, reactions, and refusal to come follow Jesus.Prove it.
Ironic..... I have in fact rationally defended my beliefs.Let me set you straight:
MUST READ: Christian Apologetics Statement of Purpose
"The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs."
This particular section of the Christian website is for people like me. It's the section kindly set aside for us to pose our challenges to people like you.
I have.Actually, that's exactly what the Apologetics Forum is for. You may think of it as "esoteric ideas", but this forum actually exists for debating purposes.
"Threads started by Christians should contain an argument why Christian beliefs are true and correct. All thread topics must contain an identifiable argument against or for the Christian faith. All participants should endeavor to support their arguments, and their rebuttals, with evidence."
I am following the rules of this Christian website.Tell me, Steve, why are you not following the rules of this Christian website?
For me, I am not bothered that God put a stop to this. I am bothered by the means he did it. Killing them all is a solution by a bloodthirsty god. He is God and could have convinced them to stop another way without killing them.So..... if you're going to hate YHVH for putting a stop to this practice, you're just going to have to live with that hate, and destroy yourself.
Do yourself a favor..... stop talking and start learning.
Too many bible verses from you once again Steve, and a very boring sermon.Yes. That's what Jesus said in John 3:19-21.
So that you may enjoy being honored by YHVH, instead of experiencing the shame and contempt your ways will bring you in eternity, as it's written in Daniel 12
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
and Peter tells us in his second letter.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
It's definitely worth being honored by God, instead of shamed, and humiliated by our sin.
Yeah, I find this accusation amusingly sad, and ironic.
God actually stated why this was needed.
From Genesis 15,
13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
In Deuteronomy 7, God tells the people.
1 “When the LORD your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, 2 and when the LORD your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. 3 Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son. 4 For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly. 5 But thus you shall deal with them: you shall destroy their altars, and break down their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images,[fn] and burn their carved images with fire.
6 “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 “Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments; 10 and He repays those who hate Him to their face, to destroy them. He will not be slack with him who hates Him; He will repay him to his face. 11 Therefore you shall keep the commandment, the statutes, and the judgments which I command you today, to observe them.
The problem was that the prior residents had brought ruin on their civilization, by sacrificing their children to gods of iron, stone, and wood. they did temple prostitution, and corrupted their ways.
According to Deuteronomy 32:17, the gods they were offering their children to were demons.
There was a god by the name of molech, which was an iron idol. Its arms were outstretched, and they'd make a large fire beneath its arms, and when the arms got white hot, they'd place t heir children on them, and the children would be roasted alive.
So..... if you're going to hate YHVH for putting a stop to this practice, you're just going to have to live with that hate, and destroy yourself.
Do yourself a favor..... stop talking and start learning.
God gave his son, while we were his enemies, so we could be made right with him.
Furthermore, Jesus was not MADE to do anything.
He plainly stated---
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
So, you've bought into a lie that has you wrapped around its finger.
Hey, I have good news for you--- you don't HAVE to do anything. You can rant, whine, complain, and exclude yourself from eternal life all you want....
Do you really think that your self-exclusion is going to justify your rage against him on judgment day?
Since you've batted a 0.000 so far, and have been shown how you were wrong, did it occur to you that you might want to slow down, and take the time to actually learn what the truth really is, instead of continuing these erroneous rants?
In Israeli culture, family ties were huge. Some had gotten to the point where they were unhealthy.
Jesus said that his followers--- people who choose to follow him-- would be to treat their relationship with God as being far more important than family ties. So much so, that the Love they had for God would make the love they had for their families seem like hate, but it was not in fact hate.
In the cases you described--- it's ignorance. Whether willful ignorance or not, I don't know, but you've bought a lie, hook, line, and sinker! We have a Manhattan here in Nevada, so I can sell you a bridge if you're interested! It's a doozy! I.e., I just want to be sure that you understand the magnitude of the lies you've bought into.
So, yes as a matter of fact.... you have nothing but excuses.
Accurately perceived.... to see as he actually is, and not as we think he is.Now this is a good question. For clarification, what do you mean by accurately perceived? How do we know what we know? or How can we have confidence in what we know?
Not unless you provide enough evidence to where I actually think you may be able to do it. I wouldn't waste my time and money just on your word.
AFTER He made himself real to me.I have no idea.
Did it ever occur to you that you did it wrong?I earnestly did for many years.
Then stop talking to me, and go talk to God.It is impossible to believe something without being convinced by evidence. So, if the bible says we must believe first, then God is asking all of us to do something that is impossible.
Well then, I'd say you're screwing yourself. You're excluding yourself out of know the truth.This is an illogical statement. I cannot believe what a God says if I first don't believe He exists.
Then give me the reasons to believe God is real. If you have nothing more than personal experience then fine.
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