For Old-Earth Creationists: Entropy existed before Adam

[Diamond7]

Are you sure Sagan said that?

yes I am sure. He was the host of cosmos before Tyson got the job. You can go to YouTube and see the program for yourself.

 

[Ragdoll]

yes I am sure. He was the host of cosmos before Tyson got the job. You can go to YouTube and see the program for yourself.

View attachment 342364

Very presumptuous. All of that comes from nutrients in our soil.

Genesis 1:11,

"Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so."

Genesis 1:24

"Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so."

God called upon the earth to bring forth living things like plants and animals etc. How could the earth obey God's command if the earth is not alive or does not have a core? You are aware that without a core the earth is dead and cannot produce vegetation no matter what. On a dead earth, life is impossible. Yet we see how God worked with nature to speed up His creation. God did not take His time here. He created everything in 6 literal days. His knowledge of physics very badly dwarfs the knowledge of physics mankind has. God first created the core as we see in this verse,

Genesis 1:3,

"Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light."

If you read Genesis chapter one this way then the whole chapter is solved and answers itself. God used an orderly way of creation. The core was what made nutrients in the soul possible. This explains the language of Genesis.

As for us coming from stardust. That is an ancient pagan belief not upheld by real science nor observed by real science. Its a vague assumption eloquently spoken so that you will believe it. But eloquent speech is the philosopher's trait. A scientist does not have to speak eloquently to make his point. Stardust in the 20th century came about through marijuana abuse. Sagan may have like the hippie song it was taken from and also knew about the Greek mythology of life from stardust.

From a 2nd century theologian. The evolution vs creation debate is very old as you will see here.

I chose not to believe a philosophy that came from Greek mythology and promoted by marijuana abuse.

Scripture also tells us that God made the universe and the earth out of water. We even find plenty of water in space. There is water on Mars. Space shuttles collect ice particles in space. The entire earth is filled with water. There is water in the atmophere, water covering most of the earth and just as much water under the earth. Evolutionists have no rational explanation for water other than to assume comets brought it here ​

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[Diamond7]

Very presumptuous. All of that comes from nutrients in our soil.

Where does the soil come from? Genesis 2:7 "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Science tells us this "dust" comes from stars. What does Revelation 6:3 mean "the stars in the sky fell to earth"? What does Ephesians 1:4 mean? "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

If we come from the dust how could we be chosen before there was dust to make us from?

My point is we need science and the Bible. NOT just science and not just the Bible. We need both and we need to balance them. When Jesus said we must become as a child for some people that would be a step up to have the understanding of a fifth grader. There use to be a program on TV are you smarter than a fifth grader. Often people could not function at a fifth grade level of understanding.

I actually had a dream about this when I was in the fifth grade. God made it clear that He wanted me to know this.

 

[Ragdoll]

Diamond7
Where does the soil come from? Genesis 2:7 "Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Science tells us this "dust" comes from stars. What does Revelation 6:3 mean "the stars in the sky fell to earth"? What does Ephesians 1:4 mean? "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Soil and its nutrients are produced by the core of the earth. God created the core in Gen.1:3.
Who breathed the breath of life into man? God did. Who is God? God is an Eternal, Infinite, Holy Living Being, Who created the world and everything therein by Himself. God is not the universe or matter of the stars. The stars were created on Day 4. And if you think God created the stars on Day 1 then you have a serious problem because the earth will be destroyed by the sun without a magnetic field! Therefore, God created the earth's core in verse 3 and Day 1. The core produced soil and nutrients by the word and power of God Who was there in Person to make sure His creation was "Very good."

If we come from the dust how could we be chosen before there was dust to make us from?

God chose us before He created everything because He thought everything out well in advance. He is God.

My point is we need science and the Bible. NOT just science and not just the Bible. We need both and we need to balance them. When Jesus said we must become as a child for some people that would be a step up to have the understanding of a fifth grader. There use to be a program on TV are you smarter than a fifth grader. Often people could not function at a fifth grade level of understanding.

Before the era of modern science we had the Bible. The morality and discipline that came from the Bible paved the way for the morality and discipline needed for modern science. And since modern science was a direct product of the Holy Bible, and all the feats and inventions in science were done by Christians (since it was Christians who founded and established modern science), then we need theology and science (but theology is more important and more reliable then science). What we no longer need is philosophy which evolution theory came from.

I actually had a dream about this when I was in the fifth grade. God made it clear that He wanted me to know this.

God is calling you to understand something. I say something because I do not want to or dare tell you what God has planned for you. That is between you and God and not for me to assume. This I do know, God wants you to be disciplined and not assume anything. God gave me a calling and I followed that call. I labored hard for over 20 years doing my very best to understand Scripture and science how they should be understood. I did all this knowing I'm accountable for every word I say and teach. I know I made plenty of mistake along the way. I stumbled and bumbled during my years of research. No matter how hard I tried to be mistake free I made enough mistakes to notice. It took me years to truly become proficient in the knowledge of God's word. And even know I fear mistakes as if they were the plague. My goal was to become a truthful witness. That is a goal one must strive hard to do in these times of confusion and misinformation. So whatever God my be calling you for, listen, pray, and obey.
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[Sheila Davis]

Hello folks. As an Old-Earth Creationist, there has been something that has been nagging me. Some Christians say that disease and entropy, a slow failure of created things in the universe did not happen before the fall of man. However, this article states that even dinosaurs (created millions of years before humans) had disease. Also, as we may know, massive stars died in our universe long before Earth was created.


Dinos had diseases: Researchers discover first evidence indicating dinosaur respiratory infection

Because of the teachings of the church for centuries, many Christians, and I will say the majority do not believe in old Earth creation they believe the dinosaurs roam the Earth 6,000 years ago.

They will not accept any science that indicates differently than the teachings of the first interpreters.

And there are probably some inwardly feel creation took place millions of years ago but will refuse to admit the error in teaching. They may feel that it will take away from the truth of scripture when it actually doesn't. It actually would show the honesty of the heart and give a better understanding especially of Genesis chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4.

And if they choose to continue to believe in a young Earth, then so be it, that belief isn't going to damn or save anyone.

 

[Diamond7]

They will not accept any science that indicates differently than the teachings of the first interpreters.

Interesting how we have true or false and nothing in between. If you go back to Bishop Ussher he really does not explain Genesis Chapter one. He begins with Genesis chapter two which we know began 6,000 years ago when we find Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Ussher does not talk a lot about what happened before Adam and Eve because not that much was known at his time 500 years ago.

 

[AlexB23]

Because of the teachings of the church for centuries, many Christians, and I will say the majority do not believe in old Earth creation they believe the dinosaurs roam the Earth 6,000 years ago.

They will not accept any science that indicates differently than the teachings of the first interpreters.

And there are probably some inwardly feel creation took place millions of years ago but will refuse to admit the error in teaching. They may feel that it will take away from the truth of scripture when it actually doesn't. It actually would show the honesty of the heart and give a better understanding especially of Genesis chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4.

And if they choose to continue to believe in a young Earth, then so be it, that belief isn't going to damn or save anyone.

The age of the Earth doesn't matter, but an old earth humbles me, showing that God is infinitely old, and 4.5 billion years is insignificantly small. Plus, scientists have gotten the age of the Earth estimated within a few million years of 4.54 billion years ago.

 

[Sheila Davis]

Interesting how we have true or false and nothing in between. If you go back to Bishop Ussher he really does not explain Genesis Chapter one. He begins with Genesis chapter two which we know began 6,000 years ago when we find Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Ussher does not talk a lot about what happened before Adam and Eve because not that much was known at his time 500 years ago.

I never heard of the bishop - I see Genesis 2 as a more detailed narration of Genesis 1 concerning man. And if you believe that it says without a doubt the earth was formed 6000 years ago that's fine - all have a right to believe as they choose there are different beliefs on many different subjects in the churches. If you believe Adam was placed Garden in the East of Eden 6,000 years ago that is fine........ I believe Adam sinned 6000 years ago, brought about death on all of man and the curse upon the Earth.

Believers such as myself disagree with a 6,000-year-old earth.

The good thing is the difference in beliefs on such subjects will not save or damn one.

 

[Sheila Davis]

The age of the Earth doesn't matter, but an old earth humbles me, showing that God is infinitely old, and 4.5 billion years is insignificantly small. Plus, scientists have gotten the age of the Earth estimated within a few million years of 4.54 billion years ago.

Indeed God is timeless - time and what we have divided into years months days hours minutes seconds is for man to calculate his existence by given by God.

And now many scientists are beginning to realize time does not really exist -

What Did Einstein's Theories Say About the Illusion of Time?

Did Einstein believe time is an illusion? Perhaps his theory of special relativity may provide a clue.

www.discovermagazine.com

What Did Einstein Mean By Time is an Illusion? - Interesting Engineering

When you think about it, time is an arbitrary construct — it's our way of making sense of growing up and growing old. It's only a stubborn illusion that helps make sense of the world.

interestingengineering.com

Not to mention what they're discovering about reality and how we are all actually living forms of energy (something I started saying about God years ago that God is living energy and like energy he was not created, nor can he be destroyed, but he can change forms). Book sold at Harvard University

Everything Is Living Energy (Paperback) | Harvard Book Store

What is it to be alive? Most definitions of life describe a virus as non-living, yet the coronavirus that caused so many world deaths was a structure that benefited from and replicated itself by taking control of and using the energy and structure of human cells. Not all structures can replicate...

shop.harvard.com

Nothing Is Solid & Everything Is Energy – Scientists Explain The World of Quantum Physics*

"It has been written about before, over and over again, but cannot be emphasized enough. The world of quantum physics is an eerie one, one that sheds light on the truth about our world in ways that challenge the existing framework of accepted knowledge.

www.linkedin.com

 

[AlexB23]

Indeed God is timeless - time and what we have divided into years months days hours minutes seconds is for man to calculate his existence by given by God.

And now many scientists are beginning to realize time does not really exist -

What Did Einstein's Theories Say About the Illusion of Time?

Did Einstein believe time is an illusion? Perhaps his theory of special relativity may provide a clue.

www.discovermagazine.com

What Did Einstein Mean By Time is an Illusion? - Interesting Engineering

When you think about it, time is an arbitrary construct — it's our way of making sense of growing up and growing old. It's only a stubborn illusion that helps make sense of the world.

interestingengineering.com

Not to mention what they're discovering about reality and how we are all actually living forms of energy (something I started saying about God years ago that God is living energy and like energy he was not created, nor can he be destroyed, but he can change forms). Book sold at Harvard University

Everything Is Living Energy (Paperback) | Harvard Book Store

What is it to be alive? Most definitions of life describe a virus as non-living, yet the coronavirus that caused so many world deaths was a structure that benefited from and replicated itself by taking control of and using the energy and structure of human cells. Not all structures can replicate...

shop.harvard.com

Nothing Is Solid & Everything Is Energy – Scientists Explain The World of Quantum Physics*

"It has been written about before, over and over again, but cannot be emphasized enough. The world of quantum physics is an eerie one, one that sheds light on the truth about our world in ways that challenge the existing framework of accepted knowledge.

www.linkedin.com

Well, matter and energy can transform. Only God can create matter and energy.

 

[Diamond7]

Believers such as myself disagree with a 6,000-year-old earth.

You do not believe? What we have to be careful with is the word Aion for Age. This means an era. The Bible is very clear we had 2,000 years of no law, 2,000 years of law and then after Calvary 2,000 years of grace. Soon we are going to enter into the 1,000 year reign of Christ when man will rest from his works. This is basically history for the last 6,000 years. Science and history verify each other but they are separate subjects and separate books. Just like religion and science verify each other but they are separate subjects and separate books.

 

[Diamond7]

And if you believe that it says without a doubt the earth was formed 6000 years ago that's fine

It is difficult to determine what "earth" means in the Hebrew. I am OEC and YEC. When OEC ends then YEC begins. Dispensationalism is a discussion on how we transition from one to the other. The church age is soon going to end. The Kingdom age will begin. But it is not clear on how we are going to transition from one to the other. Although there is a lot of speculation on how this is going to happen. Or how this is happening.

 

[Diamond7]

we are all actually living forms of energy (something I started saying about God years ago that God is living energy

God is light and there is no darkness in Him. We are very much energy. There is only about a teaspoon of actual matter that makes us up. The rest is all energy. Even the universe started off he size of a mustard seed or science says the size of the period at the end of a sentence. If two galaxys were to collide they would not actually collide at all. They would pass though each other but the energy would merge to form a new galaxy.

 

[Sheila Davis]

You do not believe? What we have to be careful with is the word Aion for Age. This means an era. The Bible is very clear we had 2,000 years of no law, 2,000 years of law and then after Calvary 2,000 years of grace. Soon we are going to enter into the 1,000 year reign of Christ when man will rest from his works. This is basically history for the last 6,000 years. Science and history verify each other but they are separate subjects and separate books. Just like religion and science verify each other but they are separate subjects and separate books.

I'm sorry, no I am not - I repeat I believe - now you can say I do not believe all you like. From Genesis 3 to Revelation 22 is based on the life of Adam after he sinned is what I believe and based on the past 6,000 + years not the age of the Earth.

And I don't require your attempt at lessons on the difference in science and the Bible and being two separate books - I am fully aware of that. I see how science coincide with the Bible and creation and the Bible and creation coincides with science - if you don't fine - believe as you choose.

 

[Sheila Davis]

It is difficult to determine what "earth" means in the Hebrew. I am OEC and YEC. When OEC ends then YEC begins. Dispensationalism is a discussion on how we transition from one to the other. The church age is soon going to end. The Kingdom age will begin. But it is not clear on how we are going to transition from one to the other. Although there is a lot of speculation on how this is going to happen. Or how this is happening.

Through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ just as he transitioned Enoch into an angel as written in the Book of Enoch - and transition all into whatever forms he has chosen for us.

 

[Sheila Davis]

God is light and there is no darkness in Him. We are very much energy. There is only about a teaspoon of actual matter that makes us up. The rest is all energy. Even the universe started off he size of a mustard seed or science says the size of the period at the end of a sentence. If two galaxys were to collide they would not actually collide at all. They would pass though each other but the energy would merge to form a new galaxy.

If two galaxies were to collide if there was matter inside of those galaxies the matter would not just pass through each other / but burst into smaller bits of matter.

And yes I know we are all energy, the entire universe is based on energy. And Science and I'm bringing science back into it has just in the past few years accepted it. Just as they are beginning to accept time is an illusion, (which God is not subject to) is an illusion that time really doesn't exist.
God said let there be Light / within a few seconds of the Big Bang Singularity the whole universe was lit up with microwave radiation light, which is described brighter than bright, which the human eye cannot see, the remnants is still present even today.

 

[Qubit]

...disease and entropy, a slow failure of created things in the universe did not happen before the fall of man.

You answered your own question. It was the Forbidden Fruit that altered our universe.

...massive stars died in our universe...

Fallen Stars. Interesting.

...long before Earth was created.

Created or recreated with a curse?

Genesis 3:17
"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;"

What if 'cursing the ground' meant that entropy was introduced? The partaking of the Forbidden Fruit may have been what Science calls the Big Bang. Maybe we went from Waves to Particles. Are you familiar with the Participatory Anthropic Principle?

"Wheeler's theory was that, in an analogous manner, consciousness may play some role in bringing the universe into existence."

John Archibald Wheeler - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Bible teaches that Earth 'was divided' during the days of Peleg...

Genesis 10:25
"And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan."

Pangea breaking up into Continents? Did God mess with the Space/Time Continuum? Many questions arise.

Genesis 8:21
"And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."

Did 'cursing the ground' involve Plate Techtonics? Did it involve millions of years?

What about the Tower of Babel incident? Was the Space/Time Continuum altered? How do we know it was not? Billions of years could have passed in a twinkling of an eye while God changed the language of Man.

So many variables exist...

 

[Diamond7]

If two galaxies were to collide if there was matter inside of those galaxies the matter would not just pass through each other / but burst into smaller bits of matter.

When galaxies collide, the individual stars within them generally do not collide directly due to the vast distances between stars compared to their sizes. However, the gravitational interactions between galaxies can cause significant disruptions to the structure of each galaxy, leading to phenomena such as tidal forces, gravitational distortions, and the triggering of star formation.

 

[Diamond7]

Through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ just as he transitioned Enoch into an angel as written in the Book of Enoch - and transition all into whatever forms he has chosen for us.

This passage is often interpreted in various ways, but it's important to note that beliefs and interpretations regarding the afterlife, transformation, and the nature of existence vary greatly among different religious traditions and even among individuals within those traditions.

 

[Sheila Davis]

When galaxies collide, the individual stars within them generally do not collide directly due to the vast distances between stars compared to their sizes. However, the gravitational interactions between galaxies can cause significant disruptions to the structure of each galaxy, leading to phenomena such as tidal forces, gravitational distortions, and the triggering of star formation.

So galaxies don't actually collide so the word is used it is a poor choice of words they actually merge

The age of the Earth doesn't matter, but an old earth humbles me, showing that God is infinitely old, and 4.5 billion years is insignificantly small. Plus, scientists have gotten the age of the Earth estimated within a few million years of 4.54 billion years ago.

Amen