For JWs and LDS

[Ran77]

Your problem is that you do not have any answers!

Wrong again. I have provided responses. Answers, I might add, that I actually wrote myself instead of relying entirely on someone else's work. So far, you have failed to provide a successful counter to the points I have made. In fact, you pretty much don't respond to my actual points - you just spam us with more of the poorly written arguments from other sites. Continuning to repost the same arguments doesn't make you right.

 

[A New Dawn]

I agree, and yet my beliefs differ in a significant way, which certainly affects the way I answer the same questions. My understanding is that all things God does—including revelation—point toward one purpose: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of His children. So the revelation of Jesus Christ, central and pivotal and magnificent and infinitely important in God's plan as it is, is not the objective. Some may think that so say such is itself a sin. I simply would disagree. To fulfill that purpose—that of exalting Heavenly Father's children—is precisely what Christ suffered and died to bring about! That is my view. And that same end is the objective of revelation. I absolutely believe that God wants to give us all that He has, and that He will give it to us liberally and not upbraid, as He has literally promised, if we will accept and be true to what He has already given us, including the Bible and its revelations of Christ. That revelation is not the end, in my mind. It is the beginning of our journey to all that God offers us.

And here is where the restoration scripture differs from the Bible. According to the Bible, there is but one heaven where all believers will go, to sit on Christ's throne at the right hand of God (because we are in him, positionally). It is kind of hard to sit on Christ's throne at the right had of God if one is not in heaven (where most believers will not be, according to the LDS faith). That is just one of the problems with modern revelation where it doesn't agree with Biblical revelation.

On the same note, if one has to participate in his own salvation, he is not being saved by grace. He is working for it. As I explained to fatboys, that is the difference between works that are required ahead of time vs. works that are done after-the-fact. That is what I meant by revelations that are "how to get ahead" in nature. When one is saved by grace, we are already saved. Our works don't count to move us closer to God. If one has to work to be close to God, then it isn't salvation by grace. At least, that is what Paul said in Romans.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Again, if that very revelation were the end... if it were God's final and ultimate objective... there would be nothing left to reveal. There would also be no purpose in prolonging man's mortal existence. God's work would have been done. Complete. Nothing more needed.

I'm not sure why you'd say that. Except that without a belief that it's God's choice who gets saved rather than our own, I guess you can say that. But, again, I believe that God chose from the foundation of the world who would be saved, and Christ won't return till all of them have been born and saved.

 

[TasteForTruth]

And here is where the restoration scripture differs from the Bible. According to the Bible, there is but one heaven where all believers will go, to sit on Christ's throne at the right hand of God (because we are in him, positionally). It is kind of hard to sit on Christ's throne at the right had of God if one is not in heaven (where most believers will not be, according to the LDS faith). That is just one of the problems with modern revelation where it doesn't agree with Biblical revelation.

I don't have a problem with apparent inconsistencies between the Restored Gospel and the Bible, since the latter is but one component of the former. But could you please reference the scripture(s) in the Bible which lead you to this conclusion?

On the same note, if one has to participate in his own salvation, he is not being saved by grace.

I wholeheartedly disagree. One of the most glaring flaws in how non-LDS understand the Restored Gospel is the removal of grace (by non-LDS) in the salvation process as described in the Restored Gospel. We are not saved by our works (using the term as you understand it). We are saved because we chose to be the beneficiaries of grace, and living our lives under and responding appropriately to that grace changes us into beings prepared for salvation, this in varying degrees commensurate to the degree of our application of grace. Using the mainstream Christian definition of "works" in an LDS context, our works are the product of what we are, not the fulcrum of our salvation. Using the LDS definition of "works" in an LDS context, our works are the determinant of the glory of our salvation.

He is working for it.

If there are LDS who believe that they are working for salvation in the sense you suggest, they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Jesus Christ.

As I explained to fatboys, that is the difference between works that are required ahead of time vs. works that are done after-the-fact. That is what I meant by revelations that are "how to get ahead" in nature. When one is saved by grace, we are already saved. Our works don't count to move us closer to God. If one has to work to be close to God, then it isn't salvation by grace. At least, that is what Paul said in Romans.

And I have said many times in this forum (and have proven the truth and validity of my point) that LDS theology is that we all are saved by default, and that we are at all times under the grace of God. I do not know why people continue to ignore this undeniable fact. I have further stated many times that the question as to the nature of our salvation is what is being determined in mortality. And it is not determined at judgment by a tallying of the good/bad we do, as is suggested by non-LDS. It is based on the glory of our spirits at judgment, which glory is a representation of what we are—what we became through applying God's grace. You are misjudging LDS doctrine and incorrectly concluding that we "work to get" salvation.

I'm not sure why you'd say that. Except that without a belief that it's God's choice who gets saved rather than our own, I guess you can say that.

Yes. I was appealing to your theology, in which God elects those who will be saved. But I see from below that my incomplete understanding of your theology led me to an incorrect conclusion in this regard.

But, again, I believe that God chose from the foundation of the world who would be saved, and Christ won't return till all of them have been born and saved.

I see. What is the purpose of mortality for those who will not be saved, and what is their elected fate?

 

[he-man]

Wrong again. I have provided responses.

Since you do not refute you must be a follower of Newton then?
Luke 21:19 (ESV)
19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

Here are a few more for you:
For Newton, therefore, demons were figures for disordered psychotic states. The cases of demon-possession in the Synoptic Gospels do not describe the activity of literal devils, but instead reflect the (mistaken) beliefs of first-century Jews.’

‘Newton goes on to say that to beleive that men or weomen can really divine, charm, inchant, bewitch or converse with spirits is a superstition of the same nature wth beleiving that the idols of the gentiles were not vanities but had spirits really seated in them.’

‘Newton laid the blame for the rise of the pagan doctrines about demons in the Church at the door of his ecclesiastical nemesis Athanasius, whom he also saw as responsible for introducing Trinitarianism and the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. In his “Paradoxical questions concerning Athanasius”, Newton contends that Athanasius advanced the notion of a conscious existence of the soul in the intermediate state between death and resurrection.’

Later than Muggleton, but earlier than Bekker, Newton came to the same conclusion as both of them – that the devil in Scripture was never the supernatural evil being of ‘orthodox’ theology, and that all temptation comes from the lust of the heart:

‘The logical corollary to Newton’s views on evil spirits is that those who claim to be tempted by a personal devil are deluded and provoked by their own fleshly imagination. Newton’s “Paradoxical questions concerning Athanasius,” an important manuscript held at the Clark Library dating from the early 1690s, makes this clear’
The “Devil”, then, is a symbol of lust and an vivid hypostatization of idolatry in aggregate. This language cannot be reconciled with the orthodox position.’
SOURCE: Stephen Snobelen, ‘Lust, Pride, And Ambition: Isaac Newton And The Devil’, pages 7, 8,9,10,11,12 November 2002

Early Bible fundamentalist Unitarians and Dissenters like Lardner, Mead, Farmer, Ashdowne and Simpson, and Epps taught that the miraculous healings of the Bible were real, but that the devil was an allegory, and demons just the medical language of the day.

Much of the popular history of the Devil is not biblical; instead, it is a post-medieval Christian reading of the scriptures influenced by medieval and pre-medieval Christian popular mythology.

Originally, only the epithet of "the satan" ("the adversary") was used to denote the character in the Hebrew deity's court that later became known as "the Devil." (The term "satan" was also used to designate human enemies of the Hebrews that Yahweh raised against them.)

The article was lost and this title became a proper name: Satan. There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
SOURCE: T. J. Wray, Gregory Mobley The birth of Satan pp.66-68
has been erroneously interpreted by some to mean Satan, "the Devil", but such is not the case. The Hebrew Bible views ha-satan as an angel ministering to the desires of God, acting as Chief Prosecutor.
SOURCE: Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil
Thomas Hobbes (1651); Arthur Ashley Sykes (1737); Richard Mead (1755); Ashdowne, ‘‘AN INQUIRY INTO THE Scripture Meaning of the Word SATAN, AND ITS SYNONIMOUS TERMS, The DEVIL, or the ADVERSARY, and the WICKED-ONE’, page 40, 1794
Burke, J. Christianity in the Witch Hunt Era, 2008

In 1737 Sykes published ‘An enquiry into the meaning of demoniacs in the New Testament’ going further than Joseph Mede’s exposition of the ‘Doctrine of Demons’ by rejecting any belief in the existence of demons and regarding those possessed as simply suffering from mental illness, as the later work of Dr. Richard Mead. He also rejected the devil as a supernatural evil being, taking the allegory argument of John Epps.

Not only did Epps reject the orthodox church establishments, but he also rejected a number of the mainstream Christian doctrines. He rejected the doctrine of the immortal soul, emphasising instead resurrection as the escape from death. In this vein, the second coming of Christ is also emphasised. He taught that Hell is the grave, not the place of torment of mainstream Christianity. He also spoke out against the glorification of war-heroes: "the honour of the British flag is a specious phrase which blinds men's eyes to right and wrong", he said.

The most infamous of Epps' unorthodox views regards the devil (1842), though he was one of a long line of Dissenters to take this view stretching back through Simpson (1804), Lardner (1742), Sykes (1737), going back to the Dutch Anabaptist David Joris (1540).

According to Epps, references in the Bible to the devil and Satan are, in the main, to be understood as personifications of the lustful principle in man and at the Dock Head Church to demonstrate that the devil is not a personal being.

David Joris (c. 1501–1556), Against this is his rationalist approach to the topic of the devil and supernatural evil. David Joris anticipated the views of Thomas Hobbes, John Epps and Dr. John Thomas in interpreting the devil as an allegory

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.
While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.
Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
Devil in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[strangertoo]

Originally Posted by A New Dawn

But, again, I believe that God chose from the foundation of the world who would be saved, and Christ won't return till all of them have been born and saved.
​

but few find the way in this earth and the many are destroyed [Matt 7:13-14]... Jesus takes only tens of thousands of saints [Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8]

and yet all are freed from hell [Rev 20:13] and counless many LATER saved [Rev 7:9-10] ...

so clearly most are not saved before this earth and heavens are destroyed [mankind already working hard by sin to destroy all life of this planet, we are in mass extinction already and that is our food source we are killing off ... note for instance that the death of just bees worldwide almost complete already will reduce mankind's food by a third ... it is just a warning of what is to come soon...

so you are mistaken, the many are saved later and saved from sin by death [Romans 6:7] not the grace that saves the few saints of this earth... countless many perfect their Love as works after death in the righteous new earth...after ALL, are released from hell as Jesus states ...Rev 20:13

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
...
2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

 

[Ran77]

Since you do not refute you must be a follower of Newton then?

Wow! What a leap of logic.

There are a myriad of reasons why a person might not refute what was presented in your post. That includes the decision to not waste their time responding to a series of cut and paste posts. But if there is security in thinking that I agree with Newton, then by all means, feel free to believe that.

 

[Ran77]

He-Man,

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. If you want me to discuss any topic with you, you will have to post your own comments. I will not participate in a discussion with a series of cut and paste postings. Do you understand that?

 

[skylark1]

TasteForTruth, thanks for your reply. I'm sorry that I am so slow in responding. This thread has moved quickly in many different directions.

I hope that you don't mind if I just comment on the following for now.

Absolutely. Rigid adherence to creeds over the Spirit, and to traditions over revelation... those are no different, in my mind. I believe Christ condemns them all.

I'm having a hard time seeing them as one and the same.

Also, your comments surprise me because several LDS have told me that LDS tend to emphasize orthopraxy (correct actions) over orthodoxy (correct beliefs). In Matthew 15, wasn't it the actions of the Pharisees that Jesus was condemning, rather than their beliefs? Or wasn't it at least beliefs that led to incorrect actions. Off of the top of my head, it seems that it was actions, rather than beliefs, that he spent his time condemning. The creeds seem to be focused on beliefs, rather than on actions.

 

[he-man]

Wow! What a leap of logic.

There are a myriad of reasons why a person might not refute what was presented in your post. That includes the decision to not waste their time responding to a series of cut and paste posts. But if there is security in thinking that I agree with Newton, then by all means, feel free to believe that.

What scriptures or clay tablets did you quote?

Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies . . . (Matt. 15 :19).

(Acts 5:3). Ananias and Sapphira went into the presence of the apostles
Peter said, "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
"Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?"
(verse 4) Peter said unto her, "How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the spirit of the Lord?" (verse 9).

SA´TAN. The word itself, the Hebrew saÆtaÆn, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam. 29:4; 2 Sam. 19:22; 1 Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Num. 22:22, 32; Ps. 109:6. This original sense is still found in our Lord’s application of the name to St. Peter in Matt. 16:23. It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, viz. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech. 2:1, and (without the article) in 1 Chron. 21:1. Nelsons Electronic Bible

"I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

If a dumb ass was enabled to speak in rebuke of the madness of Balaam (Num. 22:28), so why not a serpent?

(James 1:14), But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Rev. 12:7-10 "I will show thee things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1),

Parkhurst in his Lexicon, tells us that diabolos διαβολους (the word translated devil) is a compound of dia through, and ballo to cast, and means to dart or strike through; hence, to slander, to utter falsehood maliciously, to speak lies. for purposes of understanding, is best to be read in English as The Liar,
"he that denieth that Jesus"..and "You belong to your father, the devil (διαβόλο&#965, and you want to carry out your father's desire.)" John 8:44 STRONGS NT 1228: διάβολος

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
"The Lord stirred up an adversary (A SATAN) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite" (1 Kings 11:14). "Lest in the battle, he (David) be an adversary (A SATAN) to us" (1 Sam. 29:4).

"There is neither adversary (Satan) nor evil occurrent " (1 Kings 5:4).

Jesus addresses Peter as "Satan" when he opposed Christ's submission to death (Matt. 16:23) so is he the devil?

If Pergamos, is satan's seat how is he out running around all over the world? (Rev. 2:13).

 

[TasteForTruth]

TasteForTruth, thanks for your reply. I'm sorry that I am so slow in responding. This thread has moved quickly in many different directions.

I hope that you don't mind if I just comment on the following for now.

Not at all.

I'm having a hard time seeing them as one and the same.

Also, your comments surprise me because several LDS have told me that LDS tend to emphasize orthopraxy (correct actions) over orthodoxy (correct beliefs).

Neither are the final factor. It is what we have become on account of those things that matters most. Does that mean God doesn't care what we believe or do? No, for "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

In Matthew 15, wasn't it the actions of the Pharisees that Jesus was condemning, rather than their beliefs?

I believe it was both. Looking carefully at the scripture, the Savior condemned the condition of the Pharisees' heart and spirit (hypocrites, far from Him), their speech (drawing nigh unto him with their mouth), their professions (honoring him with their lips), their worship (vain...unproductive, unfruitful), and their teachings (supplanting the law with the commandments of men). And He condemned the whole of what they believed and did under the name "tradition," by which tradition they transgressed the law and stripped it of its spiritual (eternal) effectiveness. Certainly their tradition was comprised of both patterns of thought (beliefs) and patterns of action.

Or wasn't it at least beliefs that led to incorrect actions. Off of the top of my head, it seems that it was actions, rather than beliefs, that he spent his time condemning.

I think I may have addressed this now. I think he condemned both. The beliefs because they made God's good commandments ineffective (an abominable creed), and the actions because they were spiritually destructive to the Pharisees (and others, who potentially followed their example). I mean, acting on their corrupt traditions, they became stiffnecked (Acts 7:51), hypocritical (Matt. 15:7), adulterous (Matt. 12:39), murderous (John 8:37), covetous (Luke 16:14), and who knows what else.

The creeds seem to be focused on beliefs, rather than on actions.

The creeds (traditions) were a huge part of the problem, in my mind. Jesus said that the traditions themselves stripped away the effectiveness of the commandments.

So when I look at the three side by side...

• Rigid adherence to laws in violation of the spirit of the law
  
• Rigid adherence to creeds over the Spirit
• Rigid adherence to traditions over revelation

...I really don't see a difference. And above all, it is the combination of rigid adherence and spurning of the Spirit that is the real problem. We can stick whatever we want to in the middle, and the result is the same, is it not?

 

[Ran77]

What scriptures or clay tablets did you quote?

What does that have to do with my comments that you quoted? How does this provide a connected response to what I stated? It's like we are having two completely seperate discussions.




You know what, never mind! I'm going to move on. You have a nice day. Enjoy your discussions with the other forum members. God bless you and may you have an abundance of good health and wise friends.

 

[Rescued One]

I don't have a problem with apparent inconsistencies between the Restored Gospel and the Bible, since the latter is but one component of the former. But could you please reference the scripture(s) in the Bible which lead you to this conclusion?

I wholeheartedly disagree. One of the most glaring flaws in how non-LDS understand the Restored Gospel is the removal of grace (by non-LDS) in the salvation process as described in the Restored Gospel. We are not saved by our works (using the term as you understand it). We are saved because we chose to be the beneficiaries of grace, and living our lives under and responding appropriately to that grace changes us into beings prepared for salvation, this in varying degrees commensurate to the degree of our application of grace. Using the mainstream Christian definition of "works" in an LDS context, our works are the product of what we are, not the fulcrum of our salvation. Using the LDS definition of "works" in an LDS context, our works are the determinant of the glory of our salvation. If there are LDS who believe that they are working for salvation in the sense you suggest, they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Jesus Christ.

And I have said many times in this forum (and have proven the truth and validity of my point) that LDS theology is that we all are saved by default, and that we are at all times under the grace of God. I do not know why people continue to ignore this undeniable fact. I have further stated many times that the question as to the nature of our salvation is what is being determined in mortality. And it is not determined at judgment by a tallying of the good/bad we do, as is suggested by non-LDS. It is based on the glory of our spirits at judgment, which glory is a representation of what we are—what we became through applying God's grace. You are misjudging LDS doctrine and incorrectly concluding that we "work to get" salvation.

Yes. I was appealing to your theology, in which God elects those who will be saved. But I see from below that my incomplete understanding of your theology led me to an incorrect conclusion in this regard.

I see. What is the purpose of mortality for those who will not be saved, and what is their elected fate?

In Mormonism, men are not created as equals because the pre-existing matter used in the process is made of differing intelligences. If God is omniscient, He already knows everything about each person and who will make what choices. Man doesn't have to be tested.

Contrary to the biblical teaching that all Christians have all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus, LDS teach that men are assigned to different kingdoms according to the works they chose to perform.

LDS do not work to get to the telestial kingdom. By God's grace, he assigns many of the wicked to that place. Some Christians (those who weren't valiant enough) are forever kept from Heavenly Father's presence and are assigned to the terrestrial kingdom.

The valiant Christians, according to Mormonism are those who accepted Joseph Smith's teachings.

At death, our first judgment will be based upon our obedience to laws given in mortality; 45 and in our final judgment, we will inherit the kingdom whose laws we prepared ourselves to receive. 46 We cannot enter the celestial kingdom unless we have lived the celestial law. 47
L. Lionel Kendrick, Our Moral Agency, Ensign 1996,
Our Moral Agency - Ensign Mar. 1996 - ensign

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41

If there are LDS who believe that they are working for salvation in the sense you suggest, they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Jesus Christ.

When you say that they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Christ, do you not mean that they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Christ as taught by LDS?

GRACE AND THE ENABLING POWER OF THE ATONEMENT

I now want to describe in greater detail the enabling power of the atonement. Brothers and sisters, please notice the use of the word "grace" in the verse from 2 Nephi to which we just referred. In the Bible Dictionary in our scriptures, we learn that the word "grace" frequently is used in the scriptures to connote "enabling power." On page 697, under the word "grace," we read:

A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life.
David A. Bednar
Elder David A. Bednar, Devotional, January 8, 2002

When LDS speak of everlasting life they are not referring to eternal life with Heavenly Father. In the Bible, the Greek word for everlasting and eternal are one and the same.

So we see that LDS have a different definition for grace and a different definition for everlasting life than mainstream Christianity.

Now, please note these next sentences:

It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts (emphasis added).

That is, grace represents that divine assistance or heavenly help each of us will desperately need to qualify for the celestial kingdom. Thus, the enabling power of the atonement strengthens us to do and be good and serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.
In my personal scripture study, I often insert the term "enabling power" whenever I encounter the word grace.
David A. Bednar
Elder David A. Bednar, Devotional, January 8, 2002

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

Who is us? How many blessings are bestowed on us?

 

[TasteForTruth]

[/size]

In Mormonism, men are not created as equal because the pre-existing matter used in the process is made of differing intelligences. If God is omniscient, He already knows everything about each person and who will make what choices. Man doesn't have to be tested.

Contrary to the biblical teaching that all Christians have all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus, LDS teach that men are assigned to different kingdoms according to the works they chose to perform.

LDS do not work to get to the telestial kingdom. By God's grace, he assigns many of the wicked to that place. Some Christians (those who weren't valiant enough) are forever kept from Heavenly Father's presence and are assigned to the terrestrial kingdom.

The valiant Christians, according to Mormonism are those who accepted Joseph Smith's teachings.

At death, our first judgment will be based upon our obedience to laws given in mortality; 45 and in our final judgment, we will inherit the kingdom whose laws we prepared ourselves to receive. 46 We cannot enter the celestial kingdom unless we have lived the celestial law. 47
L. Lionel Kendrick, Our Moral Agency, Ensign 1996,
Our Moral Agency - Ensign Mar. 1996 - ensign

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41



When you say that they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Christ, do you not mean that they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Christ as taught by LDS?

GRACE AND THE ENABLING POWER OF THE ATONEMENT

I now want to describe in greater detail the enabling power of the atonement. Brothers and sisters, please notice the use of the word "grace" in the verse from 2 Nephi to which we just referred. In the Bible Dictionary in our scriptures, we learn that the word "grace" frequently is used in the scriptures to connote "enabling power." On page 697, under the word "grace," we read:

A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life.
David A. Bednar
Elder David A. Bednar, Devotional, January 8, 2002

When LDS speak of everlasting life they are not referring to eternal life with Heavenly Father. In the Bible, the Greek word for everlasting and eternal are one and the same.

So we see that LDS have a different definition for grace and a different definition for everlasting life than mainstream Christianity.

Now, please note these next sentences:

It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts (emphasis added).

That is, grace represents that divine assistance or heavenly help each of us will desperately need to qualify for the celestial kingdom. Thus, the enabling power of the atonement strengthens us to do and be good and serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.
In my personal scripture study, I often insert the term "enabling power" whenever I encounter the word grace.
David A. Bednar
Elder David A. Bednar, Devotional, January 8, 2002

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

Who is us? How many blessings are bestowed on us?

I have been down these roads with you many times. There is no need to go down them again.

 

[he-man]

What does that have to do with my comments that you quoted?

What does that have to do with your comments? Just about everything is all, but where then, did your devil come from and if not from the OT, where?

You can hide behind yourself if you are not able to address what I posted that there is not a belief in luck or magical forces of a superstitious devil or do you believe the LORD hath not done it?

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

Gen 19:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.
29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

Luk 17:29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

Deu 4:3 Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you.

Psa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

 

[A New Dawn]

I don't have a problem with apparent inconsistencies between the Restored Gospel and the Bible, since the latter is but one component of the former. But could you please reference the scripture(s) in the Bible which lead you to this conclusion?

This is Christ talking to the church:

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I wholeheartedly disagree. One of the most glaring flaws in how non-LDS understand the Restored Gospel is the removal of grace (by non-LDS) in the salvation process as described in the Restored Gospel. We are not saved by our works (using the term as you understand it). We are saved because we chose to be the beneficiaries of grace, and living our lives under and responding appropriately to that grace changes us into beings prepared for salvation, this in varying degrees commensurate to the degree of our application of grace. Using the mainstream Christian definition of "works" in an LDS context, our works are the product of what we are, not the fulcrum of our salvation. Using the LDS definition of "works" in an LDS context, our works are the determinant of the glory of our salvation.

If there are LDS who believe that they are working for salvation in the sense you suggest, they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Jesus Christ.

And I have said many times in this forum (and have proven the truth and validity of my point) that LDS theology is that we all are saved by default, and that we are at all times under the grace of God. I do not know why people continue to ignore this undeniable fact. I have further stated many times that the question as to the nature of our salvation is what is being determined in mortality. And it is not determined at judgment by a tallying of the good/bad we do, as is suggested by non-LDS. It is based on the glory of our spirits at judgment, which glory is a representation of what we are—what we became through applying God's grace. You are misjudging LDS doctrine and incorrectly concluding that we "work to get" salvation.

I am not misjudging it, I am correlating it to what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that works come after, and in response to, being saved. The LDS scriptures indicate (and maybe this is where the problem comes in) that one must do a litany of things before salvation can be bestowed. Maybe the problem is that the LDS scriptures are not clear on the matter, but they read like (and people act like) works are required for salvation. That salvation is granted at the end of the life based on what actions you took during your life. I mean, I read them for years, and believed them for years, so I know what they say. Would that, maybe, be a fair evaluation? That, at the very least, the LDS scriptures muddy the issue of the relationship between works and salvation?

I see. What is the purpose of mortality for those who will not be saved, and what is their elected fate?

What is the purpose of mortality for those who choose not to be saved in your belief system?

 

[TasteForTruth]

And here is where the restoration scripture differs from the Bible. According to the Bible, there is but one heaven where all believers will go, to sit on Christ's throne at the right hand of God (because we are in him, positionally). It is kind of hard to sit on Christ's throne at the right had of God if one is not in heaven (where most believers will not be, according to the LDS faith). That is just one of the problems with modern revelation where it doesn't agree with Biblical revelation.

I don't have a problem with apparent inconsistencies between the Restored Gospel and the Bible, since the latter is but one component of the former. But could you please reference the scripture(s) in the Bible which lead you to this conclusion?

This is Christ talking to the church:

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Well, you've taken the LDS doctrine of the kingdoms of glory and overlaid it with a traditional Christian doctrine of heaven when applying the verse about overcoming and sitting in the Savior's and the Father's thrones. Then you judged the outcome to be incompatible with what you believe. That doesn't work. If you're going to condemn LDS doctrine as unBibilcal, you have to keep it LDS all the way through the chain. If that doesn't square with the Bible, then your judgment is sound (at least on a logical level).

The verse you cited is totally consistent with LDS doctrine. Those who overcome are those who are not overcome by anything. They overcome all impediments to exaltation. Those of any lesser glory do not overcome all. source source

I am not misjudging it, I am correlating it to what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that works come after, and in response to, being saved. The LDS scriptures indicate (and maybe this is where the problem comes in) that one must do a litany of things before salvation can be bestowed. Maybe the problem is that the LDS scriptures are not clear on the matter, but they read like (and people act like) works are required for salvation. That salvation is granted at the end of the life based on what actions you took during your life. I mean, I read them for years, and believed them for years, so I know what they say. Would that, maybe, be a fair evaluation? That, at the very least, the LDS scriptures muddy the issue of the relationship between works and salvation?

OK. I think you've hit on the issue at stake. You've suggested that perhaps LDS scriptures are not clear where the grace/works issue is concerned. And you've suggested that people act like we must work to get saved. And you've asked whether or not it is fair to say that the LDS scriptures muddy this issue, making it difficult to see exactly what the relationship between grace and works is. I appreciate this approach. And my answer is that I do not believe that the issue is muddied by LDS scriptures. It is as clear to me from LDS scriptures as it is clear to you from the Bible that man is saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. And it is equally clear to me that no other power—including man's God-given will to choose—can save him. I cannot account for the reasons others cannot or do not see this. If people act like the scriptures are confusing, that does not mean that they are. If people believe that they are forging their own salvation, that does not mean that such is what the scriptures teach. And, most importantly for our discussion, if LDS differ from mainstream Christians in our understanding of what works are and what grace is and how grace saves, that does not mean that our scriptures teach that man saves himself by his works. Nor does it mean that our doctrines are unbiblical.

And that is why I said that you misjudged LDS doctrine. I don't say it to be rude, or to insult your knowledge or to marginalize your past as a member of the RLDS church. I say it because I can see the doctrine clearly, and I truly believe you've misjudged it. And 99 times out of a hundred, it's due to one's own beliefs muddying the waters, making it difficult to see what the other person sees. Just like what I did last post... where I didn't take into account an important part of your theology (about why the world just didn't end when Christ had finished His work on earth). My own understanding of the purpose of mortality muddied the waters of your theology, and I concluded incorrectly. That's how easily it happens.

And had I taken that incorrect conclusion and thrown it in your face saying, "Well your doctrines teach X," when they really don't... wouldn't you have told me that I had misjudged your doctrines? And if I kept throwing that inaccurate conclusion in your face, telling you that I know what you believe... well, you get it.

What is the purpose of mortality for those who choose not to be saved in your belief system?

Please be courteous and answer my questions. I am not setting a trap. I simply don't know what you believe. I will answer your questions after that, and the answer I give will not depend on or be affected by your response in any way.

 

[strangertoo]

[/size]

In Mormonism, men are not created as equals because the pre-existing matter used in the process is made of differing intelligences. If God is omniscient, He already knows everything about each person and who will make what choices. Man doesn't have to be tested.

Contrary to the biblical teaching that all Christians have all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus, LDS teach that men are assigned to different kingdoms according to the works they chose to perform.

LDS do not work to get to the telestial kingdom. By God's grace, he assigns many of the wicked to that place. Some Christians (those who weren't valiant enough) are forever kept from Heavenly Father's presence and are assigned to the terrestrial kingdom.

The valiant Christians, according to Mormonism are those who accepted Joseph Smith's teachings.

At death, our first judgment will be based upon our obedience to laws given in mortality; 45 and in our final judgment, we will inherit the kingdom whose laws we prepared ourselves to receive. 46 We cannot enter the celestial kingdom unless we have lived the celestial law. 47
L. Lionel Kendrick, Our Moral Agency, Ensign 1996,
Our Moral Agency - Ensign Mar. 1996 - ensign

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41



When you say that they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Christ, do you not mean that they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Christ as taught by LDS?

GRACE AND THE ENABLING POWER OF THE ATONEMENT

I now want to describe in greater detail the enabling power of the atonement. Brothers and sisters, please notice the use of the word "grace" in the verse from 2 Nephi to which we just referred. In the Bible Dictionary in our scriptures, we learn that the word "grace" frequently is used in the scriptures to connote "enabling power." On page 697, under the word "grace," we read:

A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life.
David A. Bednar
Elder David A. Bednar, Devotional, January 8, 2002

When LDS speak of everlasting life they are not referring to eternal life with Heavenly Father. In the Bible, the Greek word for everlasting and eternal are one and the same.

So we see that LDS have a different definition for grace and a different definition for everlasting life than mainstream Christianity.

Now, please note these next sentences:

It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts (emphasis added).

That is, grace represents that divine assistance or heavenly help each of us will desperately need to qualify for the celestial kingdom. Thus, the enabling power of the atonement strengthens us to do and be good and serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.
In my personal scripture study, I often insert the term "enabling power" whenever I encounter the word grace.
David A. Bednar
Elder David A. Bednar, Devotional, January 8, 2002

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

Who is us? How many blessings are bestowed on us?

Jesus told us how to recognise a false 'gospel' :-

Matthew 26:13 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

as for saints being more intelligent, the bible says not so ...

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

 

[skylark1]

Not at all.

Neither are the final factor. It is what we have become on account of those things that matters most. Does that mean God doesn't care what we believe or do? No, for "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

I believe it was both. Looking carefully at the scripture, the Savior condemned the condition of the Pharisees' heart and spirit (hypocrites, far from Him), their speech (drawing nigh unto him with their mouth), their professions (honoring him with their lips), their worship (vain...unproductive, unfruitful), and their teachings (supplanting the law with the commandments of men). And He condemned the whole of what they believed and did under the name "tradition," by which tradition they transgressed the law and stripped it of its spiritual (eternal) effectiveness. Certainly their tradition was comprised of both patterns of thought (beliefs) and patterns of action.

I think I may have addressed this now. I think he condemned both. The beliefs because they made God's good commandments ineffective (an abominable creed), and the actions because they were spiritually destructive to the Pharisees (and others, who potentially followed their example). I mean, acting on their corrupt traditions, they became stiffnecked (Acts 7:51), hypocritical (Matt. 15:7), adulterous (Matt. 12:39), murderous (John 8:37), covetous (Luke 16:14), and who knows what else.

The creeds (traditions) were a huge part of the problem, in my mind. Jesus said that the traditions themselves stripped away the effectiveness of the commandments.

So when I look at the three side by side...

• Rigid adherence to laws in violation of the spirit of the law
  
• Rigid adherence to creeds over the Spirit
• Rigid adherence to traditions over revelation

...I really don't see a difference. And above all, it is the combination of rigid adherence and spurning of the Spirit that is the real problem. We can stick whatever we want to in the middle, and the result is the same, is it not?

If it was all of that Jesus was condemning, and condemnation of creeds is similar to his condemnation of the Pharisees, then would one see negative effects from following creeds?

For example, in the passage that you offered from Matthew 15 the Pharisees were criticized because instead of financially supporting their parents, they kept their money saying that it was dedicated to God. This violated the commandment to honor our parents, and also the commandment that Jesus gave to love our neighbor as ourselves. It was rooted in their own greed, and that is why thier hearts were far from God. How is the result of believing in a creed comparable? I don't see the same results from doing so.

 

[TasteForTruth]

If it was all of that Jesus was condemning, and condemnation of creeds is similar to his condemnation of the Pharisees, then would one see negative effects from following creeds?

If a person is rigidly adhering to a creed and subordinating the Spirit to it, I think that would have some effect in the person. That was the context of my statement.

For example, in the passage that you offered from Matthew 15 the Pharisees were criticized because instead of financially supporting their parents, they kept their money saying that it was dedicated to God. This violated the commandment to honor our parents, and also the commandment that Jesus gave to love our neighbor as ourselves. It was rooted in their own greed, and that is why thier hearts were far from God. How is the result of believing in a creed comparable? I don't see the same results from doing so.

Well, in that particular case they were justifying their greed by invoking their their creed—by calling their property "corban." That same instance was recorded in Mark, but it gave more detail:

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Mark 7:9-13)
​

So they used their uninspired rabbinical tradition (the creed, in this instance) to justify a violation of God's law, suppressing the Spirit, which inspires us to care for each other. So the tradition itself, which had a form of godliness (it's good to sacrifice for, or dedicate material goods to, the support of God's work), denied the power thereof.

But you don't think that this has any application to Christian creeds? Not, mind you, speaking narrowly of the Nicene Creed (for example), but of entire Christian systems of belief—anything that a group believes and teaches is a creed. (at least that's how I understand the term)

 

[Rescued One]

[/SIZE]

In Mormonism, men are not created as equals because the pre-existing matter used in the process is made of differing intelligences. If God is omniscient, He already knows everything about each person and who will make what choices. Man doesn't have to be tested.

Contrary to the biblical teaching that all Christians have all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus, LDS teach that men are assigned to different kingdoms according to the works they chose to perform.

LDS do not work to get to the telestial kingdom. By God's grace, he assigns many of the wicked to that place. Some Christians (those who weren't valiant enough) are forever kept from Heavenly Father's presence and are assigned to the terrestrial kingdom.

The valiant Christians, according to Mormonism are those who accepted Joseph Smith's teachings.

At death, our first judgment will be based upon our obedience to laws given in mortality; 45 and in our final judgment, we will inherit the kingdom whose laws we prepared ourselves to receive. 46 We cannot enter the celestial kingdom unless we have lived the celestial law. 47
L. Lionel Kendrick, Our Moral Agency, Ensign 1996,
Our Moral Agency - Ensign Mar. 1996 - ensign

“The ordinances of the temple, the endowment and sealings, pertain to exaltation in the celestial kingdom, where the sons and daughters are. The sons and daughters are not outside in some other kingdom. The sons and daughters go into the house, belong to the household, have access to the home. ‘In my Father’s house are many mansions’ [John 14:2]. Sons and daughters have access to the home where he dwells, and you cannot receive that access until you go to the temple. Why? Because you must receive certain key words as well as make covenants by which you are able to enter. If you try to get into the house, and the door is locked, how are you going to enter, if you haven’t your key? You get your key in the temple, which will admit you.“. . . You cannot find a key on the street, for that key is never lost that will open the door that enters into our Father’s mansions. You have got to go where the key is given. And each can obtain the key, if you will; but after receiving it, you may lose it, by having it taken away from you again unless you abide by the agreement which you entered into when you went into the house of the Lord.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:40–41



When you say that they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Christ, do you not mean that they have yet to fully comprehend the atonement of Christ as taught by LDS?

GRACE AND THE ENABLING POWER OF THE ATONEMENT

I now want to describe in greater detail the enabling power of the atonement. Brothers and sisters, please notice the use of the word "grace" in the verse from 2 Nephi to which we just referred. In the Bible Dictionary in our scriptures, we learn that the word "grace" frequently is used in the scriptures to connote "enabling power." On page 697, under the word "grace," we read:

A word that occurs frequently in the New Testament, especially in the writings of Paul. The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life.
David A. Bednar
Elder David A. Bednar, Devotional, January 8, 2002

When LDS speak of everlasting life they are not referring to eternal life with Heavenly Father. In the Bible, the Greek word for everlasting and eternal are one and the same.

So we see that LDS have a different definition for grace and a different definition for everlasting life than mainstream Christianity.

Now, please note these next sentences:

It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts (emphasis added).

That is, grace represents that divine assistance or heavenly help each of us will desperately need to qualify for the celestial kingdom. Thus, the enabling power of the atonement strengthens us to do and be good and serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.
In my personal scripture study, I often insert the term "enabling power" whenever I encounter the word grace.
David A. Bednar
Elder David A. Bednar, Devotional, January 8, 2002

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

Who is us? How many blessings are bestowed on us?

TasteForTruth does not care to discuss this nor attempt to refute it, so I hope that this is helpful to non-LDS who are curious about Mormonism.