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skylark1

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Sorry I missed this one. Then why are LDS hammmmmmmmeeeerrrrreedd to death about salvation requiring faith and works?

Hi Fatboys,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post, inspite of your busy schedule.

My understanding is similar to how Dawn answered your question. I think that the view of traditional Christianity is that we are saved by grace through faith, and that works are evidence of our faith.

My understanding of the LDS view is that both faith and works play a role in salvation.

I am sorry that you have feel hammmmmmmmeeeerrrrreedd to death about it, expecially whatever role I had in doing the hammering. It is probably hard for anyone to have a good discussion if one party feels that way.
 
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skylark1

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And I for my over-sensitivity to being generalized with all other LDS posters.

I really did not think that I was generalizing all LDS posters.


From my perspective, Fatboy's error was generalization, not necessarily misunderstanding the substance which undergirds what some Christians believe (although they would probably not agree with his choice of words, at a minimum).

I still don't know of any Christian who believes that faith is not to be accompanied by works; that we are to profess Christ as our Savior but not follow Him as our Lord. I also don't know of any church that teaches that.
 
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TasteForTruth

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I really did not think that I was generalizing all LDS posters.
I know you did not think that, and don't think that. After your explanation, I agree that you weren't. But at the time I did feel that I had been. Like you, I dislike being generalized away like I'm just a lemming headed out to sea. But it happens all the time, and I admit that I've grown overly-sensitive to comments that generalize (or appear to) me into certain beliefs or attitudes. That's what I'm referring to.

I still don't know of any Christian who believes that faith is not to be accompanied by works; that we are to profess Christ as our Savior but not follow Him as our Lord. I also don't know of any church that teaches that.
You know, I couldn't, off the top of my head, think of a single church that teaches that lip service to God—lip service: An expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction—is OK. I have met individual Christians who told me to my face in very clear terms that literally all one needed to do to be saved was "confess Jesus." This doesn't say anything about how they viewed works, but these Christians I've talked to had to get this "mere confession" idea from someplace. So I did a little search. This church teaches doctrines which could lead a person right down that path:
Q: I said the sinner's prayer, but I don't know if I did it right. How can I really know for sure that I'll go to Heaven when I die?

A: You mean you didn't get the golden, wallet-sized pass in the mail already? You know, the one that gets you through the gates with no waiting in line when you die? No? Well, don't worry about it... neither did the rest of us! In fact, nobody ever gets a certificate signed by God and delivered by an angel that guarantees their admittance into Heaven. Why? Because salvation is spiritual! And although most of us would love to have something physically tangible (such as a divine certificate or pass) to ensure our salvation, God has chosen to keep salvation spiritual... making it accessible only through a spiritual substance called faith.

By faith, we believe that God's Word is true. By faith, we acknowledge and agree that Jesus is God's only Son, and through His death on the cross and resurrection from the grave, we have redemption from sin and eternal life in Heaven. Your faith in Jesus as Lord is your "golden pass" to Heaven!

To make sure that you're saved, all you have to do is read the qualifications for salvation in John 3:16 and Romans 10:9-10. There it says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16) Then, Romans 10:9-10 says, "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation."

So, ask yourself: "Have I done what these scriptures say? Do I still believe in Jesus? Do I still believe that Jesus rose from the dead? Do I still call Jesus, Lord?" If so, then you have absolutely nothing to worry about. You are saved!


The Word of God is full of scriptures that will encourage and enlighten you about God's plan of salvation through Jesus Christ. If you're wondering if Jesus accepted your prayer of salvation, read John 6:37. If you want to know what you got in return for your sins, read Colossians 1;14. If you want to find out how you came to be a Child of God, read John 1:12. If you want reassurance about eternal life, read 1 John 5:11-13. If you want to know what happened within you when you said the sinner's prayer, read 2 Corinthians 5:17. And finally, if you're feeling alone and on your own, read Hebrews 13:5. The Word is filled with scriptures to help you feel confident in your salvation.


Q: How can I really be sure of my salvation when I don't even feel like a Christian?

A: You can't use your feelings to gauge your salvation. Your mind didn't get saved when you did and neither did your emotions. It was your spirit that was re-created! That's why you can praise Jesus in church on minute and go out in the parking lot and feel like killing the guy who parked behind you!

Your feelings change every day, every hour, every minute. They can't be trusted with something as valuable as salvation! If so, you'd be in and out of hell so much, you wouldn't know what to do! And that is not God's plan for your life. His plan is that you... "might have life, and might have it abundantly!" (John 10:10) God isn't moved bye the chaos of feelings. He's moved by faith.

Today you might not feel saved at all. But if you did what Romans 10:9-10 says, you're saved whether you feel saved or not! Think of it like this: You may not feel like getting up and seeing the sun tomorrow, but it doesn't really matter. It will. I don't care if somebody spent all night trying to deceive you into thinking that it won't. That sun is coming up tomorrow morning. It's a fact! You can count on it!


God's Word is more dependable than the sun He created. When He says something, it becomes a fact! His Word is always the last word. The devil might have been working overtime trying to convince you that you never really got saved, but he's a liar. (John 8:44) If God said that all you have to do to be saved is confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, then it's a fact! You can count on it!

God is a Spirit and His ways are spiritual, not physical. Feelings are physical, not spiritual. And although He created you as an emotional creature, your every feeling isn't ordained by Him. As you continue to renew your mind to the Word of God, you will find that it is easier to determine when your feelings are steering you wrong. Just remember, feelings are temporary and they change constantly. But God never changes. (Hebrews 13:8) And the new, re-created spirit that now lives in you is a part of Him that isn't likely to change either.

So, the next time you find yourself gauging your salvation by your feelings again, stop! The next time the devil tries to throw doubt about your salvation into your mind, stop! Turn the tables on your own unsaved mind and the devil by speaking out some of the scriptures you read above. Do it out loud if you have to! Begin to exercise your faith in this area and pretty soon, you won't have a doubt in the world that Jesus is your Lord!


Q: What if I sinned after I said the sinner's prayer? Could I have lost my salvation then?

A: If you've sinned, all you have to do to have those sins off your conscience and the slate wiped clean is to go before the Lord in prayer and repent. Don't ever let sin or guilt keep you from going to The Throne of Grace. Prayer is the place where you get rid of that awful stuff! How do you repent? By doing what 1 John 1:9 says! There it tells us, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

By admitting the sin to God, asking for His forgiveness and making a quality decision not to do that sin again, you are fulfilling the requirement of repentance. The Lord will immediately draw on the blood that was shed by Jesus on the cross and use it to cleanse you of all sin. Then, He will erase the sin from His memory and never hold it against you anymore. It's that easy!


But remember, like Brother Jesse says, "Salvation is free, but it definitely didn't come cheap. It cost Jesus His life." The salvation that you have today came at great expense to God and to His Son Jesus. God gave up His precious Son to be slaughtered for all mankind's sins Jesus left His rightful place in Heaven to endure such death, just for you. So, be honorable and treat Him with love and respect. Don't abuse His goodness and grace by using His forgiveness as an excuse to keep on sinning. (Romans 6)

Today, make a quality decision in your heart to change your ways into His ways! Begin to pray and read your Bible daily.
Join us this Sunday at 10am so that you can surround yourself with people just like you who can help you grow in the Word. At Legacy Builders Church you can connect with real people who can help you during each stage of your walk with Jesus. "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is good and acceptable and perfect. " (Romans 12:2)

You don't have to feel overwhelmed with the responsibility of changing overnight. Just take it day by day and be faithful with what you know. Pretty soon, you'll be so full of confidence and zeal, you'll be telling everyone you meet how "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever shall believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life!" (John 3:16) You'll be the one convincing others of just how easy it is to receive God's gift of salvation!!

To their credit, they do teach that you shouldn't abuse the Savior's sacrifice by using his unlimited supply of forgiveness as justification to keep sinning (last line of third-to-last paragraph). And in other areas of their site they focus on outreach ministries and service to others. So it's not like they're offering passes to go sin. There is some substance there.

But reading this material, I can easily see how some people could get the idea that salvation and forgiveness are "easy to get"—as easy as opening your Bible and reading or saying aloud the verses they reference. In fact they use the phrase "it's that easy!" when talking about being forgiven. And a "golden pass to heaven"? That sounds more like an infomercial than the Gospel. Yes, the Savior did say that his yoke was easy and his burden light. But it is still a yoke and it is still a burden! Men are prone to walk the path of least resistance, and using language like:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]
[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana] To make sure that you're saved, all you have to do is...[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]all you have to do to be saved is...[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]all you have to do to have those sins off your conscience and the slate wiped clean is...[/FONT]
...using language like this will result in people, well, believing it! It will likely lead some to conclude that as long as they fulfill the letter of the law they have "fulfilled the requirement of repentance," and are good to go. It just seems so cheap to me.

In light of the whole, I don't think I'd classify what this church teaches as "lip service," but I can see how their teachings could leave a person feeling very comfortable going there.
 
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A New Dawn

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I could not disagree more! The foundation of the LDS church is revelation given to a 14.5-year-old boy who trusted in a promise found in the Bible, which led him to seek out his Maker for wisdom he lacked. The foundation of this Restored Gospel is confidence in God's word—the Bible! It is trust in a living, speaking, all-powerful God! It is not built upon some self-declaration that Christianity was corrupt. You've got it totally backward! Christianity's general corruption was exposed to Joseph because of his faith in God, not because he decided that that was the way it was! It is absolutely amazing to me that for a hundred some-odd years people have dismissed everything that preceded God's revelation to Joseph about the state of religion...

as if it simply didn't happen...

in order to establish what they want as the foundation of the Restored Gospel—the dastardly declaration of religious corruption! "What!?! Corrupt you say!?! God forbid!!! Unheard of!!! Not true!!!" It's like the straw that broke the camel's back... the blasphemy that demands that stones be taken and raised... the ultimate violation of human conscience... or some other such form of progress-damming self-absorption! And in light of how many times we LDS are told that we ignore our own Church's history—such selective history is simply beyond comprehension to me!

No, what God told Joseph about religion... is not an easy pill for man to swallow. But it is not the foundation of the Church. History strikes that claim down with a single, mighty blow. Just like I'm told all the time, "you can paint history how you want, but that don't make your painting worth buyin'."

It's funny that this foundation of confidence in God's word led JS to create more works of "God's word" that completely disagree with the original "God's word", and make what it says moot. LDS trust new revelation over anything that is said in the Bible, and let's not forget the article of faith that says that "We believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly."

As I have said many times, there will always be corruption in any organization that men are in charge of. That includes churches. All of them. The church that Christ started was not an organization with buildings and walls and structures, it is the body of believers. The body of believers cannot apostatize. Organizations with buildings and walls and men in charge can. This is what the LDS don't understand about the Bible and about what Christ did here on earth. It is why JS's story cannot be true. Because it is useless to replace one corrupt organizaton with another. It isn't what church we sit in that makes us Christian, it is what is inside us.
 
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he-man

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You know, I couldn't, off the top of my head, think of a single church that teaches that lip service to God—lip service: An expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction—is OK. In light of the whole, I don't think I'd classify what this church teaches as "lip service," but I can see how their teachings could leave a person feeling very comfortable going there.
necromancy, or "familiar spirit"is everywhere condemned in the Bible as abominable (e.g. Leviticus 20:17, Deuteronomy 18:10-12, 1 Chronicles 10:13, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Isaiah 19:3).

A ventriloquist or "familiar spirit" can throw his voice to make it so that it appears that the voice is coming from elsewhere like speaking from a rock or from a grave.
90540-004-51D46EFE.jpg
 
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Ran77

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necromancy, or "familiar spirit"is everywhere condemned in the Bible as abominable (e.g. Leviticus 20:17, Deuteronomy 18:10-12, 1 Chronicles 10:13, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Isaiah 19:3).

A ventriloquist or "familiar spirit" can throw his voice to make it so that it appears that the voice is coming from elsewhere like speaking from a rock or from a grave.
90540-004-51D46EFE.jpg

So . . .:confused:

Are you claiming that ventriloquists are satan's pawns?


:scratch:
 
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TasteForTruth

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It's funny that this foundation of confidence in God's word led JS to create more works of "God's word" that completely disagree with the original "God's word", and make what it says moot. LDS trust new revelation over anything that is said in the Bible, and let's not forget the article of faith that says that "We believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly.
I don't agree with you conclusions here, but don't want to get into it here and now.

As I have said many times, there will always be corruption in any organization that men are in charge of. That includes churches. All of them.
I don't disagree.
The church that Christ started was not an organization with buildings and walls and structures, it is the body of believers. The body of believers cannot apostatize.
The Savior and his Apostles appear to disagree with your position. The NT contains plenty of warnings to then-active members of the NT church—sometimes to entire congregations or regions—that apostasy was both foretold and coming, and already unfolding.
The body of believers cannot apostatize. Organizations with buildings and walls and men in charge can.
You own logic fails you. Organizations are people. The body of Christ is people. People apostatize, not organizations. If an apostle called and ordained by Christ himself can apostatize, anyone can.
This is what the LDS don't understand about the Bible and about what Christ did here on earth.
How does flawed logic indicate that LDS don't understand? We accept and teach what Christ and the Apostles taught—that men can, do, and did apostatize. The entire Renaissance was man's attempt to reverse the effects of apostasy! We do understand the Bible, and contrary to your statements further above, no revelation of the Restoration takes anything away from the Bible in the slightest—another backward idea, IMO. The more revelation God gives, the more bullet-proof the entire body of revelations becomes! In the mouth of two or three witnesses... To him that hath shall be given more... etc.
It is why JS's story cannot be true. Because it is useless to replace one corrupt organizaton with another.
I don't think that God organizing His church was or is useless. Christ valued organization and was careful in choosing and ordaining His apostles and seventies. These were numbered. They were sent in pairs. Organization. If it was meaningless, why did the Savior do it? And if He did it then, why wouldn't He do it now, particularly if the organization had been corrupted?
It isn't what church we sit in that makes us Christian, it is what is inside us.
I don't disagree.
 
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I know you guys are all busy, but I do not spend a lot of time on any forum now days. I drive bus 8 hours a day plus farm quite a few acres of land. It is just my wife and myself, and we made a bargin 33 years ago that if I did not have to change diapers, she did not have to work of the farm. Stupid stupid stupid. I have had my arm up the rear end of a cow up do my shoulder, you would think that I could have stood a little bit of kiddy poo. Any way it is harvest time and I also do custom work for local farmers. I just can't say no when they ask. So forgive me for not responding to your posts. It is almost never intentional.

Thank you for the explanation. Living here in Iowa, I do understand the farming life. It is not easy at all. if you add in a full-time job outside the farm it is amazing that you have any free time at all. I get irritated when city folks stereotype farmers as living a simple and easy life, enjoying the sunsets (not to mention tornadoes, thunderstorms, hail, drought, etc.).
 
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skylark1

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I know you did not think that, and don't think that. After your explanation, I agree that you weren't. But at the time I did feel that I had been. Like you, I dislike being generalized away like I'm just a lemming headed out to sea. But it happens all the time, and I admit that I've grown overly-sensitive to comments that generalize (or appear to) me into certain beliefs or attitudes. That's what I'm referring to.

You know, I couldn't, off the top of my head, think of a single church that teaches that lip service to God—lip service: An expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction—is OK. I have met individual Christians who told me to my face in very clear terms that literally all one needed to do to be saved was "confess Jesus." This doesn't say anything about how they viewed works, but these Christians I've talked to had to get this "mere confession" idea from someplace. So I did a little search. This church teaches doctrines which could lead a person right down that path:

<quoted text omitted>

To their credit, they do teach that you shouldn't abuse the Savior's sacrifice by using his unlimited supply of forgiveness as justification to keep sinning (last line of third-to-last paragraph). And in other areas of their site they focus on outreach ministries and service to others. So it's not like they're offering passes to go sin. There is some substance there.

But reading this material, I can easily see how some people could get the idea that salvation and forgiveness are "easy to get"—as easy as opening your Bible and reading or saying aloud the verses they reference. In fact they use the phrase "it's that easy!" when talking about being forgiven. And a "golden pass to heaven"? That sounds more like an infomercial than the Gospel. Yes, the Savior did say that his yoke was easy and his burden light. But it is still a yoke and it is still a burden! Men are prone to walk the path of least resistance, and using language like:[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]
[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana] To make sure that you're saved, all you have to do is...[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]all you have to do to be saved is...[/FONT]
  • [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana]all you have to do to have those sins off your conscience and the slate wiped clean is...[/FONT]
...using language like this will result in people, well, believing it! It will likely lead some to conclude that as long as they fulfill the letter of the law they have "fulfilled the requirement of repentance," and are good to go. It just seems so cheap to me.

In light of the whole, I don't think I'd classify what this church teaches as "lip service," but I can see how their teachings could leave a person feeling very comfortable going there.

I've never heard of this church, but after looking around their website I think that they teach what is known as the prosperity theology. I guess that I should be moreful making blanket statements. Even though I wasn't aware of any church that taught that faith is not to be accompanied by works, I can see how this church can give the wrong idea.

From the link above:
Based on non-traditional interpretations of the Bible, often with emphasis on the Book of Malachi, the doctrine views the Bible as a contract between God and humans: if humans have faith in God, he will deliver his promises of security and prosperity. Confessing these promises to be true is perceived as an act of faith, which God will honor.​
 
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skylark1

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I know I left out the majority of your post, but I wanted to comment on this one part. I've been reading through the New Testament. Funny how so many things the Savior said sounded very much like what God told Joseph about other religions. I'm sure it wasn't easy for them to hear either.

Indeed, and not everything God says is easy for me to hear, either! Some either forget—or never even consider—that we must be converted to the Gospel just like everyone else. We, too, must be changed. All have pride. All must bend the knee. All of us. I have spent plenty of my life damming my own progress because I would not bend... would not be changed. Oh I was willing TO change... but I wouldn't be changed! No, it's not easy.

For example?


TasteForTruth,

I had directed my question about examples to Ran77. However, since he has not responded. and since your post indicates that you are in agreement with him, could you offer some examples from the Bible of how "so many things the Savior said sounded very much like what God told Joseph about other religions?"


Thanks.
 
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TasteForTruth

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TasteForTruth,

I had directed my question about examples to Ran77. However, since he has not responded. and since your post indicates that you are in agreement with him, could you offer some examples from the Bible of how "so many things the Savior said sounded very much like what God told Joseph about other religions?"


Thanks.
Sure. I don't pretend know exactly what Ran77 had in mind, but an example that fits is that the Savior referencing the same scripture in Isaiah when speaking to Joseph that he did when speaking to the scribes and Pharisees:
Isaiah 29:13 - "Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Matt. 15:7-9 - Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

JS-History 1:9 - I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
The wording is not identical in any combination, but it is the same language and ideas being communicated, but about different groups of people. Other, potentially less-obvious examples exist (and perhaps more just as obvious, although I can't think of any right now), such as Christ accusing the scribes and Pharisees of transgressing the commandments by their tradition (Matt 15:3) and Christ accusing our generation of straying from ordinances and breaking the everlasting covenant (D&C 1:15). Christ called the scribes and Pharisees a "generation of vipers" (Matt. 3:7) and used the same phrase reference to the wicked in this generation (D&C 121:23) Does it all constitute "so many things" though? I think there is a good amount, yes. And is it all about specific churches or groups? No. But there is enough of this kind of repetition of principles and ideas in modern-day scripture that I can't, in good conscience, disagree with Ran77's statement.

In reality it would probably be more accurate to say that my agreement with Ran77's statement is more with the sentiment that things were told to or about the people in Christ's time which have been repeated in our day, but not exclusively by the Savior, and not necessarily about scribes, Pharisees, churches, or professors of religion.
 
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he-man

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So . . .:confused:Are you claiming that ventriloquists are satan's pawns? :scratch:
No, I am claiming that the LDS did not understand the verse in Isaiah and that necromancy, or "familiar spirit"is everywhere condemned in the Bible as abominable (e.g. Leviticus 20:17, Deuteronomy 18:10-12, 1 Chronicles 10:13, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Isaiah 19:3).

A ventriloquist or "familiar spirit" can throw his voice to make it so that it appears that the voice is coming from elsewhere like speaking from a rock or from a grave, making it appear as though they had called up someone from the dead
and did not percieve that he was talking about necromancy, or "familiar spirit" and then claim it was that which inspired him [J Smith] to write his Bible. He also falsely believed in a satan.


The idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.

The word itself, the Hebrew saÆtaÆn, is simply an "adversary," or opponent and is so used in 1 Sam. 29:4; 2 Sam. 19:22; 1 Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Num. 22:22, 32; Ps. 109:6. This original sense is still found in our Lord’s application of the name to St. Peter in Matt. 16:23. It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, viz. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech. 2:1, and (without the article) in 1 Chron. 21:1.Nelson's Electronic Bible; Smith Bible Dictionary


The term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how false modern religions adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".
Only rationalists like Maimonides and Abraham ibn Ezra, clearly denied (devils) their existence. Their point of view eventually became the mainstream Jewish understanding.
The Greek word daemon, daemon, appears in the works of Plato and many other ancient authors, without the evil connotations apparent in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible and in the Greek originals of the New Testament.

HaSatan acts as a servant of God, not as an opponent or even disobediant child. Angels cannot sin, they cannot fall. (Soc.Culture.Jewish NewsgroupsFrequently Asked Questions and Answers)
The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths.

Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as false Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).
 
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Phantasman

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According to Jesus, Satan thinks he is God. What better way to explain why he fooled so many angels and continues to do what he does. He is Arch-Begetter. Sometimes reading outside the box of the Catholics, one can learn more.

"Behold, I have revealed to you the name of the Perfect One, the whole will of the Mother of the Holy Angels, that the masculine multitude may be completed here, that there might appear in the aeons, the infinities and those that came to be in the untraceable wealth of the Great Invisible Spirit, that they all might take from his goodness, even the wealth of their rest that has no kingdom over it. I came from First Who Was Sent, that I might reveal to you Him Who Is from the Beginning, because of the arrogance of Arch-Begetter and his angels, since they say about themselves that they are gods. And I came to remove them from their blindness, that I might tell everyone about the God who is above the universe. Therefore, tread upon their graves, humiliate their malicious intent, and break their yoke and arouse my own. I have given you authority over all things as Sons of Light, that you might tread upon their power with your feet."

These are the things the blessed Savior said, and he disappeared from them. Then all the disciples were in great, ineffable joy in the spirit from that day on. And his disciples began to preach the Gospel of God, the eternal, imperishable Spirit. Amen. -The Sophia of Jesus Christ
 
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Ran77

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A ventriloquist or "familiar spirit" can throw his voice to make it so that it appears that the voice is coming from elsewhere like speaking from a rock or from a grave, making it appear as though they had called up someone from the dead [/FONT]and did not percieve that he was talking about necromancy, or "familiar spirit" and then claim it was that which inspired him [J Smith] to write his Bible. He also falsely believed in a satan.[/SIZE]


So, what you're saying is that devils are ventriloquists. Do they have comedy routines? Is there one is is especially entertaining? Does that make Edgar Bergen a devil? What about Jeff Dunham? I've seen his routine several times and I think I see where you're going with this.


:)
 
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Ran77

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A ventriloquist or "familiar spirit" can throw his voice to make it so that it appears that the voice is coming from elsewhere like speaking from a rock or from a grave, making it appear as though they had called up someone from the dead [/FONT]and did not percieve that he was talking about necromancy, or "familiar spirit" and then claim it was that which inspired him [J Smith] to write his Bible. He also falsely believed in a satan.[/SIZE]

The idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.

The word itself, the Hebrew saÆtaÆn, is simply an "adversary," or opponent and is so used in 1 Sam. 29:4; 2 Sam. 19:22; 1 Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Num. 22:22, 32; Ps. 109:6. This original sense is still found in our Lord’s application of the name to St. Peter in Matt. 16:23. It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, viz. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech. 2:1, and (without the article) in 1 Chron. 21:1.Nelson's Electronic Bible; Smith Bible Dictionary


The term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel."
It is easy to see how false modern religions adapted the satan to mean "fallen angel".
Only rationalists like Maimonides and Abraham ibn Ezra, clearly denied (devils) their existence. Their point of view eventually became the mainstream Jewish understanding.
The Greek word daemon, daemon, appears in the works of Plato and many other ancient authors, without the evil connotations apparent in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible and in the Greek originals of the New Testament.

HaSatan acts as a servant of God, not as an opponent or even disobediant child. Angels cannot sin, they cannot fall. (Soc.Culture.Jewish NewsgroupsFrequently Asked Questions and Answers)
The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths.

Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as false Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.
(Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).


Rev. 12: 7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


It seems that your view is contrary to what is found in the Bible. Revelations very clearly identifies Satan as not just disobedient, but an advesary who was cast out of heaven along with the angels that followed him.


:)
 
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he-man

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Rev. 12: 7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Superficial believers in the Miltonic antecedents of "the Prince of Darkness," quote Rev. 12:7, in proof of them
"And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon, and the Dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven; and the great Dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
The things seen by John in "Revelation" were representative of events future to his time. This is evident from Rev. 4:1: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Hence, how absurd to quote any of his descriptions as applicable to an event alleged to have occurred before the creation of the world!
The classes of people who refer to Rev 12 in support of a personal devil, also quote Isaiah 14:12-15, and Ezek. 28:11-15; but these Scriptures have even less to do with the subject than Rev. 12. In both cases, if the reader will read the whole chapter he will find the personage addressed is an earthly potentate--in one case the King of Babylon, and in the other, the Prince of Tyre.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some say that Isaiah 14:12. "How are you fallen from heaven, O bright star [or shining one], son of the morning [or son of dawn]! how are you cut down to the ground, you who ruled the nations!" is about the "devil". [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Part of this is due to the fact that the term bright star or shining one is translated in Latin to lucifer, which means shining one. Now, the context of the verse and a bit of knowledge of history reviels that this is about the Babylonian empire. One of the main dieties of Babylon was "Ishtar", who was the "god" who was the morning star. Shining one, son of dawn is the morning star. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The prophet was avoiding the use of the name of the not-god Ishtar. Reading verse 4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The idea that there exists anything capable of setting itself up as God's opponent would be considered overly polytheistic—you are setting up the devil to be a god or demigod.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]HaSatan acts as a servant of God, not as an opponent or even disobediant child. Angels cannot sin, they cannot fall. (Soc.Culture.Jewish NewsgroupsFrequently Asked Questions and Answers)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The idea that there is a God in heaven above who fights against a god of the underworld, or hell, is not monotheism, however, it is the same duality found in other pagan faiths. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Through His prophet Isaiah, God profoundly states, "I form light and create darkness, I make peace and CREATE evil; I am God, I do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).Consider this: If there were such an opponent and foe of God (Satan) as Christianity claims, don't you think God is capable of eliminating His created angel with a mere breath - or thought (anthropomorphically speaking)? If God spoke him (Satan) into existence; God could simply quit speaking and Satan would simply cease to exist.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets, Jewish Publication Society, 1962, Philip Birnbaum, Encyclopedia of Jewish Concepts, Hebrew Publishing Company, 1991, Aryeh Kaplan, Jewish Meditation, Schocken Books, 1985.).[/FONT]
 
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skylark1

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Sure. I don't pretend know exactly what Ran77 had in mind, but an example that fits is that the Savior referencing the same scripture in Isaiah when speaking to Joseph that he did when speaking to the scribes and Pharisees:
Isaiah 29:13 - "Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Matt. 15:7-9 - Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

JS-History 1:9 - I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
The wording is not identical in any combination, but it is the same language and ideas being communicated, but about different groups of people. Other, potentially less-obvious examples exist (and perhaps more just as obvious, although I can't think of any right now), such as Christ accusing the scribes and Pharisees of transgressing the commandments by their tradition (Matt 15:3) and Christ accusing our generation of straying from ordinances and breaking the everlasting covenant (D&C 1:15). Christ called the scribes and Pharisees a "generation of vipers" (Matt. 3:7) and used the same phrase reference to the wicked in this generation (D&C 121:23) Does it all constitute "so many things" though? I think there is a good amount, yes. And is it all about specific churches or groups? No. But there is enough of this kind of repetition of principles and ideas in modern-day scripture that I can't, in good conscience, disagree with Ran77's statement.

In reality it would probably be more accurate to say that my agreement with Ran77's statement is more with the sentiment that things were told to or about the people in Christ's time which have been repeated in our day, but not exclusively by the Savior, and not necessarily about scribes, Pharisees, churches, or professors of religion.

I agree with you that the language is similar.

Maybe I am reading too much into yours and other's words, but I had the impression that by pointing out the similarity of the words in the First Vision and the words of Jesus to the Pharisees, that there is an implication that there are similarities between the Pharisees and all of Christianity of Joseph Smith's day.

Until I read the examples from the D&C that you offered, I thought that perhaps you had included scripture where LDS were also chastized. However, after reading the verses that does not appear to be the case. In most of the examples that you offered, you noted that commandments were trangressed or ordinances and covenants were broken. But don't you also that that it was often the Pharisees rigid adherence to laws, while neglecting the spirit of the law that Jesus was criticizing?

If you think that the criticism was similar between the Pharisees and the Christians of the time of Joseph Smith, do you think that is because they both failed to follow commandments, ordinances, and covenants? Or do you think that it is because they both put the letter of the law above the spirit of the law. Or because both of their hearts were far from God. And if your answer is the last suggestion offered, why do LDS believe that the hearts of Christians of Joseph Smith's day were far from God?
 
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TasteForTruth

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I agree with you that the language is similar.

Maybe I am reading too much into yours and other's words, but I had the impression that by pointing out the similarity of the words in the First Vision and the words of Jesus to the Pharisees, that there is an implication that there are similarities between the Pharisees and all of Christianity of Joseph Smith's day.
The implication is there that "all of Christianity" is the target, but only to the extent that it actually applies. For example, look carefully again at what the Savior said to the scribes and Pharisees:
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
To whom was the Savior directly speaking? To the scribes and Pharisees. He called them, specifically, "hypocrites." But when He quotes Isaiah&#8212;again, to the scribes and Pharisees&#8212;He indicates that they are part of a much larger group. He says that "well did Esaias prophesy of you [(now speaking in general terms)], saying, This people draweth..."

"This people" does not refer to the scribes and Pharisees. It refers to Christ's people&#8212;the Jews, whose hearts were collectively hardened against Him during his ministry. And it is broader still&#8212;to all Israel&#8212;since Christ was sent by the Father to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"? (Matt. 15:24)

If Jesus' complaint was with the scribes and Pharisees only, why did He quote Isaiah, whose prophecy was about all Israel? And if it were true that all Israel was in the condition Isaiah described (which is the case!), did it really mean that every single, solitary Israelite was honoring God with his lips with a heart far from Him, and teaching the commandments of men rather than of God? The answer to the latter is clearly "no." There were Israelites at the time who served and loved God in spite of any collective stumbling blocks which may have existed in Israel at the time. The NT record names many&#8212;Zachariah, Elizabeth, Mary, Joseph, Simeon, Anna, etc. The hearts of these were not misplaced. Their devotions were sincere. They were humble and submissive to God. It makes no sense to conclude that, while they were Israelites, Christ was talking about them.

So if the Savior can invoke a prophecy clearly describing Israel in general and declare that a small group of people were those who were being prophesied about, does not the same dynamic apply in the case of the First Vision? When Christ said that the "professors of religion" were corrupt, etc., was He saying that every single, solitary Christian honored God with his lips with a heart far from Him, and that every one of them denied God's power and readily or eagerly or defiantly embraced the doctrines of men? Again, the answer is clearly "no." Just as in Jesus' day, there were people who were sincere and humble and God-loving, whose worship or conduct were only errant because the truth was not wholly available to them. I cannot accept that Christ was speaking of these.

So yes, the implication is there in both instances, but applying the prophecy beyond the bounds of reality destroys the truth.

Until I read the examples from the D&C that you offered, I thought that perhaps you had included scripture where LDS were also chastized.
I didn't include any of those, but I can. God is no respecter of persons.

However, after reading the verses that does not appear to be the case. In most of the examples that you offered, you noted that commandments were trangressed or ordinances and covenants were broken.
Yes, in a general sense where the collective is concerned, and specifically where guilty individuals are concerned, just like with the scribes and Pharisees and Israel.

But don't you also [think] that it was often the Pharisees rigid adherence to laws, while neglecting the spirit of the law that Jesus was criticizing?
Absolutely. Rigid adherence to creeds over the Spirit, and to traditions over revelation... those are no different, in my mind. I believe Christ condemns them all.
If you think that the criticism was similar between the Pharisees and the Christians of the time of Joseph Smith, do you think that is because they both failed to follow commandments, ordinances, and covenants?
Only in a general sense. That is the only tenable conclusion, in my mind (in accordance with the thoughts I shared above).

Or do you think that it is because they both put the letter of the law above the spirit of the law. Or because both of their hearts were far from God. And if your answer is the last suggestion offered, why do LDS believe that the hearts of Christians of Joseph Smith's day were far from God?
Again, I understand the entire quoting of the prophecy in both instances as indicative of general conditions where the masses were concerned. It was not germane to the present objective in either case to identify individuals who were exempt from the descriptions Christ used, even though they clearly existed.
 
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