For an 'Obamacon,' Communion Denied

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Michie

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See my sig ?

I'm honestly feeling that way.

and I'm really don't get why the US Catholic leadership is so hung up on gynecology, gays and God's-on-my-side issues.
I don't wonder at all of it but I do wonder at some of the issues you mentioned.

As far as your sig... there are a few I feel that way about myself. But what can you do but try to offset the false impressions & damage done by those types? I guess it is to show a different side of Christianity while staying obedient & still using ones brain to think with. *shrug*

Anyway, I'll be back later. Got some things to do.

BTW- I think your sig as a topic of a thread might be an interesting one...

Later Charlie. :wave:
 
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InTheCloud

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I believe that the endgame about abortion leads to the end on the Christian concept of human life. That is why the Church is so opposed to that.
Once the rationality of abortion on demand is accepted, is game over for the Christianity.
Like becomes just a mix of chemical reactions no more that that.
No need of God or an afterlife. Is just removing some blobs of tissue.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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I believe that the endgame about abortion leads to the end on the Christian concept of human life. That is why the Church is so opposed to that.
Once the rationality of abortion on demand is accepted, is game over for the Christianity.
Like becomes just a mix of chemical reactions no more that that.
No need of God or an afterlife. Is just removing some blobs of tissue.

Give me a break.

You want to play this game with me ?

Obsessing on abortion, especially on making it illegal which is extremely UNLIKELY to actually prevent any abortion does nothing but give people the idea that Christians don't care about any but the unborn.

And given that the politics supported by the Church in furtherance of anti-abortion legislation have brought us aggressive war, bad school, a crumbling infrastructure and a tax structure the favors the rich at the expense of the middle classes, I am hard pressed to argue that the impression is inaccurate.


But I guess its ok to ignore the fact that you're hungry, uneducated, suffering for a bullet wound from an assault rifle and have no hope in the future so long as no one in your country has the ability to get a legal abortion.

Its what Christ would want
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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You nailed it. :thumbsup:

But I still think the idea of communion being used as a weapon is a faulty one in the majority of cases. The term has come up long before this scenerio.

This one is murky & I'm looking foward to clarification.

Communion is one of the most precious things in a Catholic's life. Denying it lightly is abusive.

What tends to bother me in these cases is that people seem quick to judge what is an inherently messy situation. In politics, to judge whether an action is moral usually requires us to know both what the alternatives are and what the intention of the action is.
 
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InTheCloud

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About the OP, yes, I think that the priest was abusive. He was not clearly deffiying Church teaching just making a political choice despite differences he might have with Obama. And overstepped Church teaching.

I guess that the Church sees that there is a oportunity to adress Roe. They are only one or two judges away. And the next president most likely will nominate those two justices.
But more that suporting the Reeps I think the CC is addressing the unorthodoxy of many Catholics by making some politicians an example.
War is the Reeps fault, but many Dems voted for it. I a war that was unnecesary.
I do not think bad schools are just the Reeps fault. The Dems and teacher unions have also a lot of responsabilites.
The tax structure or monetary policy? I think that the blame is not so clear.
 
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longhair75

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About the OP, yes, I think that the priest was abusive. He was not clearly deffiying Church teaching just making a political choice despite differences he might have with Obama. And overstepped Church teaching.

I guess that the Church sees that there is a oportunity to adress Roe. They are only one or two judges away. And the next president most likely will nominate those two justices.
But more that suporting the Reeps I think the CC is addressing the unorthodoxy of many Catholics by making some politicians an example.
War is the Reeps fault, but many Dems voted for it. I a war that was unnecesary.
I do not think bad schools are just the Reeps fault. The Dems and teacher unions have also a lot of responsabilites.
The tax structure or monetary policy? I think that the blame is not so clear.

Friend Resoto,

Roe was decided in 1973 during a Republican presidency by a majority of six Republican appointed justices and one Democratic appointed judge. There was one Republican and one Democratic appointee dissenting.

In Mr G.W. Bush's first term, the Supreme Court had seven of the nine judges appointed by Republicans and both the House and the Senate were firmly in Republican hands. At the end of Mr. Bush's second term, Roe V Wade still stands unchallenged. The campaign rhetoric of a Right to Life Amendment remains unfulfilled.

As a Republican from a very Red state, I no longer believe the leaders of my party when they campaign on a Pro-Life stand.
 
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InTheCloud

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Yes, I now about Nixon and Roe. I also remember Barry Goldwatter, the guru of many conservatives was prochoice (few people remember that). When evangelicals thought abortion was mostly a RC issue.
But Roe was modified first during Reagan, who was very close to pass the Right to live amendement. Have not those Republican nominees judges voted the way they did there would not be zoning or parental notifications in abortion.
And a growing mayority of Reep nominated justices aproved the ban of partial birth abortions as constitutional.
And was Ronald Reagan the first Reep, that unlike Nixon, did not put cronies on the bench but ideologically selected justices for the first time in history. And he almost got Justice Bork to the bench who called Roe uncostitutional but he was blocked by the Dems.
And there is little a President could do abortion but nominate the right judges.
Personally I think that a constitutional ban of abortion or gay marriages is a bad idea and since the US const is so hard to modify (a good idea of the Framers) a utopia unless is a major cultural change.
I also worry about a liberal court for other reasons like Eminent Domain, now that is a dangerour runing that will made the US into the third world and none have noticed that the liberals and some "moderates" voted for it.
 
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Michie

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WASHINGTON (CNS) --
For Pepperdine law professor Douglas Kmiec, a constitutional lawyer who often writes on religion in the public square, the situation had uncomfortable echoes of the last presidential election cycle -- a priest was refusing to give Communion to someone on the basis of the man's support of a candidate.

This time, though, the surprised Massgoer turned away by a priest was Kmiec himself. The former dean of the law school at The Catholic University of America in Washington is an architect of the Reagan administration's stance against abortion whose pro-life credentials include serving as keynote speaker at the March for Life's annual Rose Dinner a few years ago.

When the priest upbraided the law professor from the pulpit for his endorsement of presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and then refused to give him Communion, Kmiec was stunned, he told Catholic News Service June 4 in a telephone interview. (Since 2002 Kmiec has been a monthly columnist for CNS.) The incident occurred at a Mass preceding the meeting of a Catholic business group in California at which Kmiec was the featured speaker.
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/briefs/cns/20080604.htm#head2
 
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narnia59

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Some information from the Bishop's Task Force that looked at this issue:


On the question of calls for denying Communion or public calls for refraining from Communion, our conference is not united, with several bishops sincerely convinced this is necessary and many others who do not support such actions. Our consultations with moral theologians and canonists warned us that such steps could raise serious questions about Catholic teaching and the application of Canon Law. State Catholic conference directors warned about a negative impact on faithful legislators, the Catholic community, and the role of the Church in public life.

In our ad limina visits, many of us raised these questions. As many of you know, Vatican officials offered both principles and advised caution and pastoral prudence in the use of sanctions. In recent days, I have once again been in contact with Cardinal Ratzinger both by letter and telephone calls. He has offered some observations for our work which he specifically asked not be published, but which I wish to share with you. The first is a recognition that it is up to us as bishops in the United States to discern and act on our responsibilities as teachers, pastors and leaders in our nation. He expresses his respect for the role of our conference and the bishops in the United States in carrying out these responsibilities.

Having said this, Cardinal Ratzinger speaks about WHAT constitutes “manifest grave sin” and “obstinate persistence” in public life, stating that consistently campaigning for and voting for permissive laws on abortion and euthanasia could meet these criteria.

Cardinal Ratzinger outlines HOW a bishop might deal with these matters, including a series of precautionary measures involving a process of meeting, instruction and warning. This process involves meeting with the person and providing instruction on Catholic moral teaching. Cardinal Ratzinger suggests informing such persons that if they reject Catholic moral teaching in their public actions, they should not present themselves for Holy Communion until their situation has ended. Using the precedent of our teaching and practice in the case of a person in an invalid marriage, the Cardinal recognizes that there are circumstances in which Holy Communion may be denied. He also indicates that in these cases a warning must be provided before the Eucharist can be denied.

I would emphasize that Cardinal Ratzinger clearly leaves to us as teachers, pastors and leaders WHETHER to pursue this path. The Holy See has repeatedly expressed its confidence in our roles as bishops and pastors. The question for us is not simply whether denial of Communion is possible, but whether it is pastorally wise and prudent. It is not surprising that difficult and differing circumstances on these matters can lead to different practices. Every bishop is acting in accord with his own understanding of his duties and the law.

It is important to note that Cardinal Ratzinger makes a clear distinction between public officials and voters, explaining that a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil only if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion. However, when a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted if there are proportionate reasons.

Therefore, based on the traditional practice of the Church and our consultation with members of our conference, other episcopal conferences, distinguished canonists and theologians, our Task Force does not advocate the denial of Communion for Catholic politicians or Catholic voters in these circumstances.

No one should mistake our task force’s reservations about refusing Communion or public calls to refrain from Communion as ignoring or excusing those who clearly contradict Catholic teaching in their public roles. Those who take positions or act in ways that are contrary to fundamental moral principles should not underestimate the seriousness of this situation. We insist that they must study Catholic teaching, recognize their grave responsibility to protect human life from conception to natural death, and adopt positions consistent with these principles. However, in our view the battles for human life and dignity and for the weak and vulnerable should be fought not at the Communion rail, but in the public square, in hearts and minds, in our pulpits and public advocacy, in our consciences and communities.

Based on our consultation process, there is significant concern about the perception that the sacred nature of the Eucharist could be trivialized and might be turned into a partisan political battleground. Expecting a minister of Holy Communion to make these judgments would create great pastoral difficulties. We do not want to encourage confrontations at the altar rail with the Sacred Body of the Lord Jesus in our hands. This could create unmanageable burdens for our priests and those who assist them and could turn the Eucharist into a perceived source of political combat.

Other questions were raised about where the process might lead--who would be impacted and what other issues might lead to denial of Holy Communion. We fear that it could further divide our Church and that it could have serious unintended consequences. For example, it could be more difficult for faithful Catholics to serve in public life because they might be seen not as standing up for principle, but as under pressure from the hierarchy. We could turn weak leaders who bend to the political winds into people who are perceived as courageous resistors of episcopal authority. In the past such actions have often been counter-productive. We also fear it could push many people farther away from the Church and its teaching, rather than bringing them closer.

In light of these and other concerns, the task force urges for the most part renewed efforts and persuasion, not penalties. We urge new efforts to teach clearly, advocate effectively, organize and mobilize Catholic laity and to engage, persuade, and challenge Catholic politicians to act on the moral teaching of our Church.

Disciplinary actions are permitted. Indeed, in the guidance I just shared with you, they are discussed. But they should be applied when efforts at dialogue, persuasion and conversion have been fully exhausted. There is a wide range of affirmative approaches used by members of our conference. These need to be practiced more widely, more strategically and more effectively.


http://www.usccb.org/bishops/intreflections.shtml
 
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Fantine

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In light of these and other concerns, the task force urges for the most part renewed efforts and persuasion, not penalties. We urge new efforts to teach clearly, advocate effectively, organize and mobilize Catholic laity and to engage, persuade, and challenge Catholic politicians to act on the moral teaching of our Church.

That being said, I hope that conservative Catholics will carefully analyze ALL the positions of the narrowly-defined 'pro-life' politicians whose misguided policies they have saddled us with, ask themselves, WWJD? and challenge them.
 
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thereselittleflower

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If we are to hold the same litmus to our politicians, shouldn't we hold it also to those who support them? It would be hypocritical not to.

It has to do with the gravity of it, and this is why public figures are singled out, for their actions impact a large numberof the faithful. An private and unknown individual will not get this kind of public attention simply by virtue of his not being a threat to the larger community.
He also will not be personally known to the priest of his condition in this regards.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Communion is one of the most precious things in a Catholic's life. Denying it lightly is abusive.

Baloney!

Denying it when one has put publically put themselves at odds to the Church on such a major issue is an issue of safety for the person and others. To partake unworthily of holy communion is to be guilty of the body and blood of Jesus (ie murder of Jesus) and for that reason many are sick and dead Paul tells us.

It is what the Church needs to do. It is a type of excommunication which the individual brings on themselves.

They Church in American has been lax in doing its duty in this regards. I for one applaud it. The message is loud and clear. To receive communion one must not be in grave/serious sin.
 
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MikeK

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Baloney!

Denying it when one has put publically put themselves at odds to the Church on such a major issue is an issue of safety for the person and others. To partake unworthily of holy communion is to be guilty of the body and blood of Jesus (ie murder of Jesus) and for that reason many are sick and dead Paul tells us.

It is what the Church needs to do. It is a type of excommunication which the individual brings on themselves.

They Church in American has been lax in doing its duty in this regards. I for one applaud it. The message is loud and clear. To receive communion one must not be in grave/serious sin.



Frag says denying Communion lightly is abussive - you call that "baloney". You are my enemy. I believe that if communion is to be denied - it must be done with great calculation and consideration - never "lightly".
 
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SolomonVII

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...Douglas Kmiec, a staunch Republican, firm foe of abortion and veteran of the Reagan Justice Department, had been denied Communion. ...

If he supports Obama he is neither a staunch Republican nor a foe of abortion.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Baloney!

Denying it when one has put publically put themselves at odds to the Church on such a major issue is an issue of safety for the person and others. To partake unworthily of holy communion is to be guilty of the body and blood of Jesus (ie murder of Jesus) and for that reason many are sick and dead Paul tells us.

It is what the Church needs to do. It is a type of excommunication which the individual brings on themselves.

They Church in American has been lax in doing its duty in this regards. I for one applaud it. The message is loud and clear. To receive communion one must not be in grave/serious sin.

I didn't say that excommunication doesn't have its place. However, it should almost never be used in response to something like a political endorsement.
 
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Miss Shelby

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what a crock of poop this whole thing is. You cannot be an American and support any candidate and call yourself moral. Because NONE of them are. That's just the way it is, and if you don't think so you're either stupid or steeped in denial. We all need to sit communion out if we vote for any of the schysters.
 
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Michie

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Douglas Kmiec was on NPR today, talking about his dust-up with the California priest. Sounds like it was quite the scene.
An interesting side note: The Obama campaign is sending around an email with links to several media stories promoting the senator's faith commitment. (This interview comes from one of those links.) Clearly, his campaign sees an opportunity to go for the religious voters that McCain is fumbling away.
http://insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_myblog&Itemid=127
 
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wiggsfly

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I will never understand why supporting a pro-choice politician is a sin when supporting a war-monger who would rather bomb a country than talk to it is not.

Yes, I am against abortion as it is the murder of those who cannot yet speak for themselves. Currently in the Fall however I will vote for Obama and not another warmonger eager to bomb innocent civilians for more oil.
 
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