Folks Of Non-Christian Faith Traditions

[mark46]

We all live in countries where the numbers of non-Christian faith traditions are increasing. There are more Buddhists, Hindu and Muslims than ever before. And then of course, there are also Jews and those of native religions. Finally, there are those of "unorthodox" spiritualities. For esample, in the US, 90% state that they believe in God. As Bishop Wright has noted, the battle against atheism is not what should drive us all. That battle is past in the US; that is, unless one simply labels all non-Christains as atheists as many do. Of course, this certainly not an issue that is just a US one. Certainly the UK has its own issues.

How should be interact with them? Should we consider them fellow seekers? Should we respect their traditions? Should we fight to protect their rights to worship? Should we work with others in charities and in other social welfare endeavors? Should we encourage our children to interact with them and learn about their faith traditions, "what makes them tick".

I bring this up on 9/11 because I sense a growing negativism of Christians towards those of other faiths, a growing moving inward to wanted to associate only with folks very much like themselves. This is very evident in US evangelicals as they attack our Muslim brothers and sisters.

But I have have said enough. How do you all see this issue?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think it's crucial that we teach comparitive religion in the classroom. That's one reason I continue to stay in sixth grade. We teach Hinduism, Budddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. I think it's unfortunate that Islam isn't on the menu for elementary grades. I had Jewish and Muslim and Mormon friends as a kid. I don't have a problem with interacting, learning about and learning from people of different faiths. I also think that the bizarre xenophobic anti-Muslim sentiments are largely driven by post-9-11 reactions and fears. It's understandable to a point, but sad nontheless. The more that people seek to drive out our Muslim neighbors and try to forbid them from building mosques, etc., the more it gives credence to the idiotic claims of the terrorists that the U.S. is anti-Islam.

That being said, I find Islam to be a danger in that it is growing too fast, it has a long history of hostility to the West, and it is opposed to Christianity despite similarities in it.

Buddhism and Hinduism have grown a great deal, especially Buddhism, in the West in that it is contemplative, peaceful, and basically agnostic focusing on the inner gnosis and the individual.

I think some community interaction between Islam and Christianity is a healthy thing. If Muslims and Christians are working together to feed and clothe the hungry, then the hungry are being fed and clothed. It doesn't matter who's doing it as long as it gets done. And perhaps in the midst of working together, a little more mutual trust can be achieved. Do I approve of the theology of Islam? answer: heck no. Do I think we can co-exist (not the hippie bumper sticker, yeesh!)? Absolutely. And I think we WILL make it work. But if Christians continue to use birth control in the excess that they do now and Muslims continue to procreate with abandon, expect Islam to overtake the Christian religion fast and furiously.

I am all in favor of charitable and community interaction and mutual understanding. What I'm TOTALLY NOT in favor of are prayer summits where Muslims and Christians pray together. That makes me nauseous and I find that a dangerous synchretism wherein people are praying essentially to different gods and the public begins to blur the lines all in the name of ecumenism. Not good. But again, that is my perspective in that I do not in the slightest see the god of Islam and the Lord our God of the Bible as interchangeable or the same.

that's my 0.2 cents.

 

[brightmorningstar]

The OP is loaded with assumptions that are debatable in themselves.
For example, as there is only one true God I guess one could call anyone who does not believe in God the Father Son and Holy Spirit, an atheists.

This is a great deception which is part of a one world order. Whilst it would be difficult to argue Muslims dont believe in God, what they know of and worship in Islam is not God. Its a close deception, which of course is what deception is, it looks so much like the truth, but isnt.

The NT is a very good example of how Christians should act, many of the places the NT disciples witnessed the gospel were very pluralistic like western or indeed the world is becoming. (not least epicurean and stoic like philosophy)

 

[MKJ]

The OP is loaded with assumptions that are debatable in themselves.
For example, as there is only one true God I guess one could call anyone who does not believe in God the Father Son and Holy Spirit, an atheists.

This is a great deception which is part of a one world order. Whilst it would be difficult to argue Muslims dont believe in God, what they know of and worship in Islam is not God. Its a close deception, which of course is what deception is, it looks so much like the truth, but isnt.

The NT is a very good example of how Christians should act, many of the places the NT disciples witnessed the gospel were very pluralistic like western or indeed the world is becoming. (not least epicurean and stoic like philosophy)

This is a totally a-historical and bizarre way to define an atheist. No where in Christian history has it been defined this way, or treated this way, and it does a huge disservice to language. An atheist is a person who does not believe God exists - a person who is a theist cannot be called an atheist without making language meaningless - it is no different than calling any "good person" an Christian.

While I understand why some people are concerned about Islam, I am more scared by the attitude I see in the US, especially in the last two years since the Obama administration came in. For some reason it seems to have really ramped up the conspiracy theorist nuts. They seem to forget what a really small percentage of people in North America are Muslims. They seem to forget that the majority of Arabs here are actually Christians.

When a nation with a huge army and nuclear weapons is has a loud lobby that is immersed in these alternate reality scenarios, I find myself very worried.

 

[brightmorningstar]

This is a totally a-historical and bizarre way to define an atheist. No where in Christian history has it been defined this way, or treated this way, and it does a huge disservice to language.

Again I am not sure that is the case at all, nor is church history a good guide to faith in Christ, its littered with all kinds of questionable things.

An atheist is a person who does not believe God exists - a person who is a theist cannot be called an atheist without making language meaningless.

In dictionary terms you are quite correct, but the point was really that if there is only one God then someone who believes in a false god doesn’t believe in God. Jesus said those who are not for Him are against Him, and nothing that lasts can be done without Him.

While I understand why some people are concerned about Islam, I am more scared by the attitude I see in the US, especially in the last two years since the Obama administration came in. For some reason it seems to have really ramped up the conspiracy theorist nuts. They seem to forget what a really small percentage of people in North America are Muslims. They seem to forget that the majority of Arabs here are actually Christians.

Well Islam is a threat to the truth of Jesus Christ, so it is a concern. As to conspiracy theories, there are plenty of things Obama has said and done to ask some questions about deception.

If you want a conspiracy theory try the liberal view of Christianty it is constantly referring to claiming back a true meaning.

 

[mark46]

Buddhists and Christian monks have prayed together for decades. There are national organizations that have built on what Thomas Merton and Thich Nhat Hanh have taught us, as well as the Dalai Lama.

I believe that there is little conflct. A Buddhist can come to Christ and still keep his meditative practices, that focus of the Way of Compassion. They have no god. I understand that this is somewhat of an exaggeration since there are so many schools of Buddhism, but almost all their teachings could have taught by followers of Jesus. Of course, the cultural context and metaphors are very different.

IMHO, the barrier in the East is the conduct of Christians toward each other and toward our fellow man, as Gandhi pointed out. We Christains just don't attract others by our example of love, as was the case was the case at the time of Acts.

I think it's crucial that we teach comparitive religion in the classroom. That's one reason I continue to stay in sixth grade. We teach Hinduism, Budddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. I think it's unfortunate that Islam isn't on the menu for elementary grades. I had Jewish and Muslim and Mormon friends as a kid. I don't have a problem with interacting, learning about and learning from people of different faiths. I also think that the bizarre xenophobic anti-Muslim sentiments are largely driven by post-9-11 reactions and fears. It's understandable to a point, but sad nontheless. The more that people seek to drive out our Muslim neighbors and try to forbid them from building mosques, etc., the more it gives credence to the idiotic claims of the terrorists that the U.S. is anti-Islam.

That being said, I find Islam to be a danger in that it is growing too fast, it has a long history of hostility to the West, and it is opposed to Christianity despite similarities in it.

Buddhism and Hinduism have grown a great deal, especially Buddhism, in the West in that it is contemplative, peaceful, and basically agnostic focusing on the inner gnosis and the individual.

I think some community interaction between Islam and Christianity is a healthy thing. If Muslims and Christians are working together to feed and clothe the hungry, then the hungry are being fed and clothed. It doesn't matter who's doing it as long as it gets done. And perhaps in the midst of working together, a little more mutual trust can be achieved. Do I approve of the theology of Islam? answer: heck no. Do I think we can co-exist (not the hippie bumper sticker, yeesh!)? Absolutely. And I think we WILL make it work. But if Christians continue to use birth control in the excess that they do now and Muslims continue to procreate with abandon, expect Islam to overtake the Christian religion fast and furiously.

I am all in favor of charitable and community interaction and mutual understanding. What I'm TOTALLY NOT in favor of are prayer summits where Muslims and Christians pray together. That makes me nauseous and I find that a dangerous synchretism wherein people are praying essentially to different gods and the public begins to blur the lines all in the name of ecumenism. Not good. But again, that is my perspective in that I do not in the slightest see the god of Islam and the Lord our God of the Bible as interchangeable or the same.

that's my 0.2 cents.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Mark1,

Buddhists and Christian monks have prayed together for decades.

So whom? One to God and the other to Buddha.

I believe that there is little conflct.

How?

A Buddhist can come to Christ and still keep his meditative practices, that focus of the Way of Compassion.

How? If someone comes to Christ they are no longer Buddhist but Christian. Christians are gudied by the Holy Spirit of God, not Buddhist meditative techniques.

They have no god. I understand that this is somewhat of an exaggeration since there are so many schools of Buddhism, but almost all their teachings could have taught by followers of Jesus. Of course, the cultural context and metaphors are very different.

Well so could many of the teachings of many of the world religions, thats humanism.

IMHO, the barrier in the East is the conduct of Christians toward each other and toward our fellow man, as Gandhi pointed out. We Christains just don't attract others by our example of love, as was the case was the case at the time of Acts.

Actually we do attract others by our example of love today as in Acts, not just in the way Christians love and serve in charity but by the way people see how we love each other in our churches. That is certainly a testimony of new people who come to Christ in the many churches know. Are you confusing this with those who find the gospel itself offensive?

 

[MKJ]

Buddhists are unlikely to pray to Buddha.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Buddhists are unlikely to pray to Buddha

Ah yes.. well to whoever or whatever they pray.

 

[TomUK]

Again I am not sure that is the case at all, nor is church history a good guide to faith in Christ, its littered with all kinds of questionable things.
In dictionary terms you are quite correct, but the point was really that if there is only one God then someone who believes in a false god doesn’t believe in God. Jesus said those who are not for Him are against Him, and nothing that lasts can be done without Him.
Well Islam is a threat to the truth of Jesus Christ, so it is a concern. As to conspiracy theories, there are plenty of things Obama has said and done to ask some questions about deception.

If you want a conspiracy theory try the liberal view of Christianty it is constantly referring to claiming back a true meaning.

But belief doesn't require truth. To say that a Muslim (for example) believes in God (is a theist) does not imply anything about the truth of such a claim, simply that there is a belief there. Frankly I think you'd be making the work of evangelism much difficult if you took that mutual recognition of theistic belief away. I'm reminded of Paul's sermon in the areopagus where his task was made so much with the fact that he was able to move the people from belief in the unknown god to the truth of God in Christ.

 

[brightmorningstar]

TomUK,

But belief doesn't require truth.

I fully agree, one can believe in a lie.

To say that a Muslim (for example) believes in God (is a theist) does not imply anything about the truth of such a claim, simply that there is a belief there.

But that is not the point I was making.

Frankly I think you'd be making the work of evangelism much difficult if you took that mutual recognition of theistic belief away.

I didn’t intend to at all, Paul's discourse in the areopagus was very much in my mind,

belief in the unknown God to the truth of God in Christ.

I would have used the lower case for the unknown god.
There is only one true God, the definition of theism can cover false and unknown gods.

 

[mark46]

Of course not.

Generally, Buddhists do not pray TO anyone. Buddhists not have the idea that God is a Person, an Other. That is Middle East understanding. Of course, Christians believe in Jesus, the God-man, and in the Trinity.

Buddhists are unlikely to pray to Buddha.

 

[mark46]

I agree with most of what you have posted.

Let us explore a bit.

THE "IDIOTIC CLAIM THAT THE US IS ANTI-ISLAM
You indicate that the actions of some in the US helps give credence to the idiotic claim that the US is anti-Islam. You further indicate that the misguided behavior is understandable because of 911.

And exactly what should a citizen of Iraq or Afghanistan believe about the US and Islam? Hundreds of thousands of their brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles are dead. And why? Is it because the Iraqis who fought Iran attacked an oil field owned by the precious Kuwaiti sheiks? Is it because 3000 are dead in New York because of the attacks of a bunch of Saudi terrorists, whose Al Quaida leaders were originally trained and financed by the US.

Is it really idiotic for those in the Middle East to consider the US to be anti-Islam? They see the Palestinians fighting Israel. They see this as a religious struggle. Which side in the US on?

Bill Clinton was the lone voice to start to support Muslims peoples in the world, with his defense of Muslims in Bosnia. But the US doctrines of Bush and Bush are live and well. AT LEAST, one might understand that the view that US in anti-Islam is not idiotic. It may be wrong. We may simply be greedy capitalists supporting the interests of our oil companies. But it is certainly not unreasonable to think of our policies as anti-Islam.

This is simply ecent evidence. Obviously, their is a deep seated believe that the West is anti-Islam.

I think it's crucial that we teach comparitive religion in the classroom. That's one reason I continue to stay in sixth grade. We teach Hinduism, Budddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. I think it's unfortunate that Islam isn't on the menu for elementary grades. I had Jewish and Muslim and Mormon friends as a kid. I don't have a problem with interacting, learning about and learning from people of different faiths. I also think that the bizarre xenophobic anti-Muslim sentiments are largely driven by post-9-11 reactions and fears. It's understandable to a point, but sad nontheless. The more that people seek to drive out our Muslim neighbors and try to forbid them from building mosques, etc., the more it gives credence to the idiotic claims of the terrorists that the U.S. is anti-Islam.

That being said, I find Islam to be a danger in that it is growing too fast, it has a long history of hostility to the West, and it is opposed to Christianity despite similarities in it.

Buddhism and Hinduism have grown a great deal, especially Buddhism, in the West in that it is contemplative, peaceful, and basically agnostic focusing on the inner gnosis and the individual.

I think some community interaction between Islam and Christianity is a healthy thing. If Muslims and Christians are working together to feed and clothe the hungry, then the hungry are being fed and clothed. It doesn't matter who's doing it as long as it gets done. And perhaps in the midst of working together, a little more mutual trust can be achieved. Do I approve of the theology of Islam? answer: heck no. Do I think we can co-exist (not the hippie bumper sticker, yeesh!)? Absolutely. And I think we WILL make it work. But if Christians continue to use birth control in the excess that they do now and Muslims continue to procreate with abandon, expect Islam to overtake the Christian religion fast and furiously.

I am all in favor of charitable and community interaction and mutual understanding. What I'm TOTALLY NOT in favor of are prayer summits where Muslims and Christians pray together. That makes me nauseous and I find that a dangerous synchretism wherein people are praying essentially to different gods and the public begins to blur the lines all in the name of ecumenism. Not good. But again, that is my perspective in that I do not in the slightest see the god of Islam and the Lord our God of the Bible as interchangeable or the same.

that's my 0.2 cents.

 

[mark46]

Many of us will not even attend houses of prayer others, including those of other Christian denominations. Some will attend Christian weddings or funerals.

So, which option makes sense to you all?

OPTION ONE
Ten years ago, we were attacked by Saudi thugs. ALL iof America came together to pray in NY shortly thereafter. All of America publicly prayed together: Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu.

OPTION TWO
On the ten-year anniversary in NY, the mayor excluded all religious figures from the commemoration.

OPTION THREE
The third approach is to consider that we are a Christian country and allow only Christian prayer. Much of the US would prefer this, including the yahoos in TN and elsewhere who do not want Muslims to build houses of prayer.

.

I am all in favor of charitable and community interaction and mutual understanding. What I'm TOTALLY NOT in favor of are prayer summits where Muslims and Christians pray together. That makes me nauseous and I find that a dangerous synchretism wherein people are praying essentially to different gods and the public begins to blur the lines all in the name of ecumenism. Not good. But again, that is my perspective in that I do not in the slightest see the god of Islam and the Lord our God of the Bible as interchangeable or the same.

that's my 0.2 cents.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Mark1,
I tend to agree with gurneyhalleck1, I think you have missed the point.
Praying together is meaningless, especially when one prays to the Father Son and Holy Spirit, that could even be offensive to the Muslim.
A dilemna one has is that if our good works testify to the love of God through the grace of Jesus Christ, then isn’t it compromising the good work if a joint effort goes to Islam and Allah?

OPTION ONE
Ten years ago, we were attacked by Saudi thugs. ALL iof America came together to pray in NY shortly thereafter. All of America publicly prayed together: Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist and Hindu.

Well each representative could pray in turn to their god, isnt that what happened?

OPTION TWO
On the ten-year anniversary in NY, the mayor excluded all religious figures from the commemoration.

Possibly worse as many are religious.

OPTION THREE
The third approach is to consider that we are a Christian country and allow only Christian prayer. Much of the US would prefer this, including the yahoos in TN and elsewhere who do not want Muslims to build houses of prayer.

Interesting. Why not for the state occasions? We have a democracy, if the majority wanted that why would it not be possible? However, it is not a Christian value to force others not to have other beliefs.
But we should pray that Mosques arent built and that people come to faith in Christ.

 

[MKJ]

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander with this majority business.

 

[mark46]

I think that we might pray on this idea.
=============================
Personally, I believe that following the wishes of the majority is one of the worst forms of government. We are NOT a democracy. This is a serious misunderstanding of the US form of government. IMHO, this is a KKK view of the US. If the majority ruled in many Southern states, we'd still ahve slavery, or blacks would have bee sent to Africa long ago. Minorities would be discriminated in many states and towns. And we would not have freedom of religion. In many areas of this country, Catholic churches would not be allowed, or would be discriminated against. No, we do want democracy!

The reason that we should not have ONLY Christian prayers at state functions is that Christianity is not the state religion. I'm sure that many would like to change that (the constituional amendment process is available for such change), but our forefathers would be aghast!

We often have prayers at public functions. This is an example from the PA Senate, from a Sikh. Many of our legislatures start in prayer.

Pennsylvania State Senate prayer - YouTube

This is one of the reasons for this thread. To explore how we view such prayer. Obviously, there are many Christians who would have only Christian prayer at all state functions (as you said). Others strongly oppose any prayer (the mayor of NY is the recent example). All three views are very common in the US.

In my personal opinion, only one of the three views is consistent with who we are as a country. But that is my person view.

.

Interesting. Why not for the state occasions? We have a democracy, if the majority wanted that why would it not be possible?

 

[mark46]

BTW, I think that you will find that many of our EO brothers and sisters have had a fine relationship with Sufis over the centuries, similar to Merton and Buddhists.

I think it's crucial that we teach comparitive religion in the classroom. That's one reason I continue to stay in sixth grade. We teach Hinduism, Budddhism, Judaism, and Christianity. I think it's unfortunate that Islam isn't on the menu for elementary grades. I had Jewish and Muslim and Mormon friends as a kid. I don't have a problem with interacting, learning about and learning from people of different faiths. I also think that the bizarre xenophobic anti-Muslim sentiments are largely driven by post-9-11 reactions and fears. It's understandable to a point, but sad nontheless. The more that people seek to drive out our Muslim neighbors and try to forbid them from building mosques, etc., the more it gives credence to the idiotic claims of the terrorists that the U.S. is anti-Islam.

That being said, I find Islam to be a danger in that it is growing too fast, it has a long history of hostility to the West, and it is opposed to Christianity despite similarities in it.

Buddhism and Hinduism have grown a great deal, especially Buddhism, in the West in that it is contemplative, peaceful, and basically agnostic focusing on the inner gnosis and the individual.

I think some community interaction between Islam and Christianity is a healthy thing. If Muslims and Christians are working together to feed and clothe the hungry, then the hungry are being fed and clothed. It doesn't matter who's doing it as long as it gets done. And perhaps in the midst of working together, a little more mutual trust can be achieved. Do I approve of the theology of Islam? answer: heck no. Do I think we can co-exist (not the hippie bumper sticker, yeesh!)? Absolutely. And I think we WILL make it work. But if Christians continue to use birth control in the excess that they do now and Muslims continue to procreate with abandon, expect Islam to overtake the Christian religion fast and furiously.

I am all in favor of charitable and community interaction and mutual understanding. What I'm TOTALLY NOT in favor of are prayer summits where Muslims and Christians pray together. That makes me nauseous and I find that a dangerous synchretism wherein people are praying essentially to different gods and the public begins to blur the lines all in the name of ecumenism. Not good. But again, that is my perspective in that I do not in the slightest see the god of Islam and the Lord our God of the Bible as interchangeable or the same.

that's my 0.2 cents.

 

[brightmorningstar]

There are some amazing ministries in the middle east where Jews and Arabs (many former Muslims) have come to faith in Christ, and are working together in helping the Arab and Jew poor, homeless, addicts and sick.
This is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[mark46]

So, for you, Jews are atheists?

I understand that it is the teaching of Lewis Carroll that within our own world, words can mean anything we choose them to mean. So, I ask for clarification.

For example, as there is only one true God I guess one could call anyone who does not believe in God the Father Son and Holy Spirit, an atheists.