flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

Rescued One · Jan 31, 2004

Would you not allow an atheist father to attend his daughter's baptism into the LDS church? Man! You guys are strict!

Kevin Graham · Jan 31, 2004

== Would you not allow an atheist father to attend his daughter's baptism into the LDS church? Man! You guys are strict!

Huh? That is not true at all. Where did that come from?

baker · Jan 31, 2004

TOmNossor said:
If you are not a member of the CoJCoLDS, you cannot participate in a sealing ceremony.

This I know. My question is why? Where do I find any scriptures requiring a sealing.

Would you like for me to perform the marriage ceremony from you daughter and her new husband? I am not a Bishop or sealer and I am not recognized by the any church to be able to perform this ceremony.

I have asked you before which religion you support. I still wonder what the answer is to that. If you will tell me, we can know for sure if your religion recognizes me as one who can participate in a marriage ceremony.

None of this is relevant to my questions. I would just like to know why I am excluded from what should be such a joyous occasion of love and happiness. If it helps you answer, consider me non-denominational.

Since it is a religious ceremony participants must embrace the religion in which it is a ceremony.

Tom, where do you come up with this stuff. This must be unique to mormonism. I can't begin to count the number of weddings I've been to where many of the participants were not of the faith that the two being married.

No Catholic would allow me to act as the priest in their wedding. I couldn't be a Godparent either. The fact that I could sit at the back of the church just means that I have no religious mandate as this type of participant.

Ok, what if you don't want to be the priest or the godparent. What if you just want to witness one of the most joyous occasions in the life between a parent/child or relative or friend.

In any other church, you would be as welcome as any one participating in the actual ceremony. That's because the message of Christ was for all to hear, sinners and saints alike. He never excluded.

A sealing ceremony is different. All the witnesses are required to embrace the faith and live the faith.

Is this a "Christian" requirement or merely a requirement of the mormon church. If it is a christian requirement, could you provide the underlying scripture?

I recognize that I might not feel as upset about not being a Godparent for my Catholic relatives as you do about not being a witness for your LDS relatives, but the reasons are the same reasons.

What? And where does the Catholic church exclude people from joyous occasions?

Active and faithful membership yes. For you as a non-member there are no qualifying questions so in no sense can you consider exclusion a comment on your worthiness.

Tom, be serious here. There are no questions because I could never be worthy unless I'm a mormon under your church standards. I am as unworthy as the non-tithing members who was excluded as well.

Tell me, how do you determine worthiness and what are we to be worthy of. This is where the lds posters on the board always abandone the conversation!

It is in LDS Christian scriptures

Where, could you provide a cite?

And since it is a LDS ceremony, it should be governed by LDS scriptures which include more than the Bible.

Again, what scriptures?

Also, the

Temple is an esoteric, sacred ordinance. There is a good amount of evidence that the EarlyChurch had esoteric rights too, but due to their nature they are not listed openly in the Bible. Would you expect them to be?

John 18:

19 The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.
20 Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
21 Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.

Does that answer your question? Like I've said before - go with the original!

baker · Jan 31, 2004

Kevin Graham said:
== Would you not allow an atheist father to attend his daughter's baptism into the LDS church? Man! You guys are strict!

Huh? That is not true at all. Where did that come from?

Kevin is right, all can attend.

Rescued One · Jan 31, 2004

Kevin Graham said:
== Would you not allow an atheist father to attend his daughter's baptism into the LDS church? Man! You guys are strict!

Huh? That is not true at all. Where did that come from?

Then why isn't her baptism as sacred or secret as her wedding?

baker · Jan 31, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
Then why isn't her baptism as sacred or secret as her wedding?

Now your asking too many questions.

Rescued One · Jan 31, 2004

I'm coming to the conclusion that it's all a big secret. The questions don't get answered and yet LDS scream that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. I think NOT!

TOmNossor · Jan 31, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
I'm not talking about officiating. Why can't a father attend his daughter's wedding? The Methodists allow fathers to attend their daughters' weddings. The Catholics and Jews do, too. What is the big scary secret?

As a participant! I am saying that the witnesses at the Temple like the Godparents at a Catholic Baptism are participants. There are requirements for the participants in a religious ceremony.

You as well as I know there is no secret.

GodsWordisTrue said:
Yea, right. You think Mark or the Catholics have more power than God? My God is all-powerful. He doesn't let atheists, Catholics, humanists, or anyone destroy His word.

If the Bible isn't reliable, it isn't God's word, and man is hopelessly lost.

It is your belief that the Bible is inerrant. God allowed the Jews to crucify his Son. God allowed the Catholic Church to add things to the religion that we both agree they shouldn't. God could stop this, but the witness of history is that he hasn't done so.

Charity, TOm

Kevin Graham · Jan 31, 2004

== Then why isn't her baptism as sacred or secret as her wedding?

"More sacred" isn't really how Mormons view it. It has everything to do with location, and for our purposes, we hold weddings in the Temple. Is that really so disastrous?

== I'm coming to the conclusion that it's all a big secret.

Well, that is a really shallow way to present it. We don't consider it a "big secret" so much as we consider it sacred.

== The questions don't get answered and yet LDS scream that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. I think NOT!

Is this really necessary? You should already know the answers; they seem obvious to me anyway. It all boils down to the fact that we believe in modern-day temples and you don't. Pretty simple. Is that reason enough to make divisions to the extent that we cannot refer to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you really think that you, as a non-Catholic, can participate in all the Catholic ceremonies? Why isn't the same standard of criticism applied there? I know that in my hometown, a Mormon getting married in our baptist Church wasn't even an option. Mormons have to deal with the fact that not all Mormons can enter the temple. Does that mean we make divisions in our own Church too? Of course not. We are all brothers and sisters.

Kevin Graham · Jan 31, 2004

== If the Bible isn't reliable, it isn't God's word, and man is hopelessly lost.

Well, that is just silly to Mormon ears. So God is entirely dependent on a few scribes?

Sorry, but we put more faith in God than we do a book.

Rescued One · Jan 31, 2004

TOmNossor said:
As a participant! I am saying that the witnesses at the Temple like the Godparents at a Catholic Baptism are participants. There are requirements for the participants in a religious ceremony.

We were asking why non-participants are not allowed to attend the wedding.

You as well as I know there is no secret.

I'm sorry, but I know so such thing. Are you accusing me of having seen your temple ceremonies? How could I, a lowly Christian, see those things done in secret?

It is your belief that the Bible is inerrant. God allowed the Jews to crucify his Son. God allowed the Catholic Church to add things to the religion that we both agree they shouldn't. God could stop this, but the witness of history is that he hasn't done so.

God doesn't come down and zap every sinner. People to sin. He allowed Joseph Smith, Jr., to say the things he did. That's not the point. You're saying that He allowed people to tamper with His word, remove necessary parts, and then expected people to believe someone like Joseph Smith. There are so many flaws in Mormonism, I can see why some people leave it and end up with very little faith. How traumatic it must be to have a church be so demanding and then to learn of its countless inconsistencies.

Rescued One · Jan 31, 2004

God allowed the Jews to crucify his Son.

He certainly did! The atonement was part of His plan.

Kevin Graham · Jan 31, 2004

Are you suggesting that just anyone could enter the Temples in the Bible?

baker · Jan 31, 2004

Kevin Graham said:
"More sacred" isn't really how Mormons view it. It has everything to do with location, and for our purposes, we hold weddings in the Temple. Is that really so disastrous?

Ask those who are excluded. Yes, it is disastrous if it is being claimed that god wanted it that way!

It all boils down to the fact that we believe in modern-day temples and you don't. Pretty simple. Is that reason enough to make divisions to the extent that we cannot refer to one another as brothers and sisters in Christ?

Why do you excluded your "brothers and sisters" of Christ? It is the lds church making the division, not the brothers and sisters of Chirst. And certainly not Christ.

Do you really think that you, as a non-Catholic, can participate in all the Catholic ceremonies? Why isn't the same standard of criticism applied there?

Kevin, what christian church do you know that excludes non-members from weddings. If it's "sacred" Christ would want all to hear!

I know that in my hometown, a Mormon getting married in our baptist Church wasn't even an option.

Did your Baptist church exclude mormons from the wedding ceremony. Come on Kevin, use reason.

Mormons have to deal with the fact that not all Mormons can enter the temple. Does that mean we make divisions in our own Church too? Of course not. We are all brothers and sisters.

Now there's some great rationale. "Hey, we stand in judgement of our own members, so you shouldn't mind if we stand in judgement of you too"

Wrigley · Jan 31, 2004

TOmNossor said:
It seems that Mark or someone removed some words from the Gospel of Mark. The truth was maintained for a period, but was ultimately lost (perhaps because it was about sacred esoteric rights).

Charity, TOm

Oh, this is rich. You do have quaint little beliefs, don't you?

Wrigley · Jan 31, 2004

GodsWordisTrue said:
I'm coming to the conclusion that it's all a big secret. The questions don't get answered and yet LDS scream that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. I think NOT!

It would be funny if this super secret stuff in the temple is just a fancy recipe for jello.

Sherman · Jan 31, 2004

Baker, So when is/was your daughters Temple wedding anyway?

I sure wish your daughter, her husband and your wife well!

Sherman

RufustheRed · Jan 31, 2004

Kevin Graham said:
Are you suggesting that just anyone could enter the Temples in the Bible?

Are you suggesting that the high priest (from the tribe of Levi) performed eternal marriages, sealings and baptisms for the dead in the temple in Jerusalem?

I thought that the LDS considered their doctrine to be a restoration of the gospel. The rites performed in THE Jewish temple do not compare with the rites that are performed in LDS temples.

Sven

happyinhisgrace · Jan 31, 2004

It seems that Mark or someone removed some words from the Gospel of Mark. The truth was maintained for a period, but was ultimately lost (perhaps because it was about sacred esoteric rights).
Where is this information located?

Grace

baker · Jan 31, 2004

Sven1967 said:
Are you suggesting that the high priest (from the tribe of Levi) performed eternal marriages, sealings and baptisms for the dead in the temple in Jerusalem?

I thought that the LDS considered their doctrine to be a restoration of the gospel. The rites performed in THE Jewish temple do not compare with the rites that are performed in LDS temples.

Sven

Sven,

The problem with you is that you actually took the time to read and become knowlegable. You actually took the initiative to "think" for yourself.

What's up with that? True.

flood of anti-Mormon sentiment

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