Flood, literal or not?

[Beastt]

Oh I know what it is alright --- I just don't know it as a false prophecy.

If you knew which one I was talking about, why did you ask?

True prophecies are those which are fulfilled. False prophecies are those which are not fulfilled. That should kind of help you sort it out.

That's my point. Let's skip clues and go right to the heart. Chapter and verse --- fair enough?

No, not really. It's said that Jesus will return. If you'd like to dispute that, then I assume you'll supply chapter and verse to support your assertion.

I've heard rumors to that effect.

Do you have an opinion as to whether or not Christianity promises that Jesus will return?

I've heard rumors to that effect as well.

Which, that he has returned or that he hasn't? Most Christians are still waiting. If he's returned and left, perhaps you should tell them.

And why not?

Because if you could, you could then predict anything; "I predict the entire world will be converted, by cosmic rays, into a giant pink ball of cotton candy."

Now by your rules, this isn't a failed prophecy because I didn't say when it would happen. So if it still hasn't happened 6 Billion years from now, I still get to claim it as a true prophecy because it simply hasn't happened yet.

See the problem?

Not quite yet.

So you're saying that it will be very soon? How do you know? How can we tell? Christians have been saying that it will happen very soon for the past 2,000 years. It hasn't happened. They were all wrong. What makes you different?

Here, let me help you out --- is this what you're talking about:

Or, better yet, is it this?

Are you saying, Beastt, that one or both of these are false prophecies?

I'm saying that it was prophesied that Jesus would return and he hasn't. That's a false prophecy by any reasonable measure. Christians who say that there aren't any false prophecies in Christianity are overlooking the most vital of all.

 

[Beastt]

And therein is a major difference between you and I.

To you, truth and god are two different things.

To me, Truth and God are one and the same.

To me reality represents truth. Reality not only doesn't demonstrate God to exist, but demonstrates that the book you call "God's word" is false on many counts.

You keep using the word "demonstrate", overlooking the fact that God did demonstrate His existence with signs and wonders - but was still rejected.

You keep asserting that anything stated in the Bible is automatically correct. I've shown you time and again where many things asserted in the Bible are demonstrably incorrect. God never demonstrated anything - ever. It makes no sense that God would exist, would be omnipotent, would want us to know he exists and wouldn't present the necessary evidence to demonstrate his existence. The idea that God exists, is omnipotent and wants us to know he exists is a contradiction. I'm not omnipotent and I have no trouble at all convincing people I exist.

Do you honestly think He's going to repeat Himself over and over to every generation that comes along?

Of course I don't. He doesn't exist. So he can't repeat himself. He never said anything in the first place. Men have said it all and done it all. God hasn't ever done anything. But if God did exist, there would be no reason for him not to demonstrate his existence in clear and undeniable terms.

What do you think would happen right now if God were to shout at us from the sky loud enough for all to hear?

I'll tell you what would happen --- the same thing as before:

[bible]John 12:29[/bible]

The Bible makes it clear that even when Jesus comes back physically and rules and reigns with a rod of iron here on the earth in His own kingdom --- people are going to reject Him; and not just reject Him, but I mean to the point where they go after Him again to do away with Him - (Revelation 20).

But this time it's gonna be different.

My suggestion is for you to get on the winning side (if you haven't already) before it's too late.

Please!

You can't assert that God is omnipotent and in the next breath, proclaim that he's unable to convince us that he exists. When you try, you contradict yourself.

Do you believe that I exist? Have I ever shouted at you from the sky? Why can't God do what I can do? Is it perhaps because I exist and God doesn't?

 

[AV1611VET]

There is absolutely no proof of this.

Like I care --- they should look harder then.

Except, there is absolutely no proof that the vapor canopy ever existed...

Like I care --- they should look harder then.

 

[Daughter of His]

I've something interesting to ponder on the subject of the flood being literal or not. I have family of a few generations of farmers in the Midwest. We're talking unpaved roads to this day. Anyway, more than once they have uncovered a seashell out in the pastureland.

 

[Beastt]

Like I care --- they should look harder then.

There isn't any need to look harder when the evidence already tells them they're not going to find what you insist exists.

Despite your unwillingness to recognize how physics works, what you're suggesting simply couldn't be the case. Solar energy from the sun travels to Earth but due to the shape of the Earth, can't strike every point on the planet at the same angle. The spherical shape of the planet forces the energy from the sun to travel through greater distances of atmosphere near the poles than at the equator where it penetrates directly through, thereby providing more of the energy to the surface of the planet. At the poles the energy from the sun travels at a sharp angle through the atmosphere which means it travels through a greater depth. As that energy travels through the atmosphere, some is reflected. The more atmosphere the energy travels through, the less reaches the planet. So it's simply not possible to have a uniform temperature across the whole of the planet.

The authors of the Bible didn't know that.

Like I care --- they should look harder then.

That may be how blind faith works but it's not how the demonstrations of reality work. The evidence against the vapor canopy myth, (it doesn't even begin to qualify as a theory), is conclusive. It never existed.

Not only is there no proof, (more correctly insufficient supporting evidence and conclusive refuting evidence), but the whole scenario simply doesn't work. The vapor canopy would require an enormous amount of water be suspended in the atmosphere. Water doesn't suddenly become weightless just because it's in vapor form. All of that weight would drastically raise the atmospheric pressure on the Earth, alter the climate beyond survivable levels and mask out so much of the sun's energy as to make life nearly impossible. And you can't simply have a condition like that exist at one point, then not exist at another without demonstrating a physical mechanism for the transition.

The idea has been thoroughly and conclusively dismissed as a possibility countless times and on dozens of points.

 

[AV1611VET]

If you knew which one I was talking about, why did you ask?

I didn't then, and I still don't. This is what happens when people just make blanket statements without supplying at least the chapter; but we Christians usually know what others mean because we've been through it a thousand times.

Anyone can get on here and say, "The Bible contradicts itself"; but not many, for instance, are willing to publicly challenge a Christian on 2 Samuel vis-a-vis 1 Chronicles 21.

[bible]2 Samuel 24:1[/bible]
[bible]1 Chronicles 21:1[/bible]

HOWEVER, since we're talking false prophecies, and not contradictions, I'll get off it.

 

[Steezie]

The flood is mathematically impossible.

There is not enough water on the planet.

 

[JohnR7]

Anyway, more than once they have uncovered a seashell out in the pastureland.

The Bible says in the beginning the whole earth was covered with water. Just about anywhere you go on the earth you will find that at one time there was a ocean there.

Here in Ohio under the great lakes are huge deposits of salt. We are using a lot of it right now because we just got 20 inches of snow dumped on us and Bufflo NY got about 6 feet of snow dumped on them. So it is a good thing we have lots and lots of salt. The mines show that the salt is in layers. It is said to have settled to the bottom back when there was a ocean here.

Of course now and ever sence the end of the last ice age, the great lakes are fresh water lakes. All of the rivers and streams in Ohio are all tied together. So whatever fish are in the lakes you will find in the rivers.

 

[JohnR7]

the book you call "God's word" is false on many counts.

Sense there are "many" of them, then can you demonstrate a few examples of where the word of God is "false"?

 

[Beastt]

I've something interesting to ponder on the subject of the flood being literal or not. I have family of a few generations of farmers in the Midwest. We're talking unpaved roads to this day. Anyway, more than once they have uncovered a seashell out in the pastureland.

While interesting there is no real mystery to this. Sea shells have also been found high on uninhabited mountain peaks. The geology of the Earth isn't static. Plate tectonics accounts for a great number of odd items in seemingly unlikely areas.

 

[Beastt]

Sense there are "many" of them, then can you demonstrate a few examples of where the word of God is "false"?

John, I've done this over and over and over for you. You simply declare that the Bible doesn't state what it states. When I show you word for word that it does state what I've presented as false, you get quiet for a time. Then you pop up again in another thread proclaiming that the Bible is 100% true.

• The Earth was not formed covered with water and no planet without an atmosphere can support liquid water.
  
  
• Plants were not growing on the Earth before the existence of the sun, (and the Earth didn't exist before the sun).
  
  
• The moon, sun and stars do not reside "in" the Earth's atmosphere nor could they ever at any time.
  
  (We're not even off the first page yet.)
  
  
• The Earth is not stationary.
  
  
• The sun does not orbit the Earth.
  
  
• The Earth is not at the center of the universe nor even at the center of the solar system.
  
  
• You can't cure leprosy by sprinkling bird blood on open skin lesions even if you use special herbs to do this and do it seven times. Moses lied.

That's a small start. But I know you won't even directly address this. You'll simply come up with your own personal edits to what the Bible actually says. But we're talking about what the Bible says, not what you want the Bible to say. What the Bible says is demonstrably false on numerous counts.

 

[JohnR7]

There is not enough water on the planet.

There is enough water because the whole earth was covered by water at one time.

The problem has to do with biodiversity and how long the earth has been here and how long the different species have been alive here on earth.

The world as we now know it is only 6,000 years old. Actually a day in Genesis is 1,000 years. So it all began 12,975 years ago at the end of the last ice age when you will find massive extinctions followed by population explosions. Creating a bottle neck effect. (GAP Ruin Reconstruction)

It is clear that there was an old earth here before. In fact the geological ages is based on creationism because they was discovered and maped out by christian geologists over 200 years ago, long before Darwin came along.

 

[AV1611VET]

True prophecies are those which are fulfilled. False prophecies are those which are not fulfilled. That should kind of help you sort it out.

That's a rookie mistake if ever I saw one. What's an unfilled prophecy, then?

Which, that he has returned or that he hasn't? Most Christians are still waiting. If he's returned and left, perhaps you should tell them.

Here's what I would tell them:

But some in the church misunderstand the second coming of Christ, thinking the believers who die before Christ's return will miss out on the resurrection. Paul assures them that the dead in Christ will indeed be the first to rise, and they then will be caught up together with those alive to meet the Lord in the air.

The Thessalonian church is confused concerning the second coming of Christ. Either they have misinterpreted Paul's first letter, or they have fallen victim to the deceit of a forged letter claiming to be from the hand of Paul. The church believes Christ's return is about to take place; therefore, many are neglecting their responsibilities and work. They are letting others take care of them while they do nothing more than wait for the Lord's return.

...

Paul exhorts the Thessalonian church to remain steadfast in their service as the time of Christ's return is not known. But the absolute surety of His coming is known and is the essence of these words from Paul.

 

[JohnR7]

• The Earth was not formed covered with water and no planet without an atmosphere can support liquid water.

• 
  [*]Plants were not growing on the Earth before the existence of the sun, (and the Earth didn't exist before the sun).​
  
  [*]The moon, sun and stars do not reside "in" the Earth's atmosphere nor could they ever at any time.​
  (We're not even off the first page yet.)​
  
  [*]The Earth is not stationary.​
  
  [*]The sun does not orbit the Earth.​
  
  [*]The Earth is not at the center of the universe nor even at the center of the solar system.​
  
  [*]You can't cure leprosy by sprinkling bird blood on open skin lesions even if you use special herbs to do this and do it seven times. Moses lied.​

• The Bible does not say any of that stuff. You clearly do not know the Bible. It is no wonder you do not believe the Bible, because you do not have a true knowledge or understanding of the Bible.

At this point I do not think it has anything to do with the Bible anyways. You do not want to live according to the way the Bible says to live. So you make up stories about how the Bible is not true. It is not going to work though, the truth will catch up with you. The decision has been made that your going to be hard headed and do it the hard way. I should know because I am just as hard headed as you are.

 

[Beastt]

There is enough water because the whole earth was covered by water at one time.

No it wasn't. There is only as much water available to Earth as is trapped on the planet and in the atmosphere. Proclaiming that the Earth was completely covered at one time means nothing when you can't produce the water to do it. And the "one time" to which you refer is likely based on Genesis 1:2 which attempts to assert that the Earth was covered in liquid water without having an atmosphere and before the sun existed. Without an atmosphere, water simply escapes into space. Without a sun the Earth would be approximately -454°F so you couldn't possibly have liquid water.

The problem has to do with biodiversity and how long the earth has been here and how long the different species have been alive here on earth.

The problem has to do with the desire to believe an old book written by relatively ignorant men rather than noting that the evidence clearly rules out any possibility that the book is correct.

The world as we now know it is only 6,000 years old. Actually a day in Genesis is 1,000 years. So it all began 12,975 years ago at the end of the last ice age when you will find massive extinctions followed by population explosions. Creating a bottle neck effect. (GAP Ruin Reconstruction)

Wrong. Multiple dating techniques all show the age of the Earth to be approximately 4.6 Billion years old.

It is clear that there was an old earth here before. In fact the geological ages is based on creationism because they was discovered and maped out by christian geologists over 200 years ago, long before Darwin came along.

The geological age is based on geology, not creationism. Geology is a science. Creationism is a myth which avoids science because science shows it to be incorrect.

You couldn't even have oil or coal if the Earth were only 6,000 to 10,000 years old.

 

[Steezie]

There is enough water because the whole earth was covered by water at one time.

The problem has to do with biodiversity and how long the earth has been here and how long the different species have been alive here on earth.

The world as we now know it is only 6,000 years old. Actually a day in Genesis is 1,000 years. So it all began 12,975 years ago at the end of the last ice age when you will find massive extinctions followed by population explosions. Creating a bottle neck effect. (GAP Ruin Reconstruction)

It is clear that there was an old earth here before. In fact the geological ages is based on creationism because they was discovered and maped out by christian geologists over 200 years ago, long before Darwin came along.

The Earth was never completely covered by water. The ammount of water and land on the Earth has never changed. It has simply been re-distributed. And mathematically there is not enough water on the Earth to cover it totally with water

 

[JohnR7]

The Earth was never completely covered by water.

You need to open up your science book and study it. I will make it easy for you though. Look into what they call the snowball earth.

 

[Steezie]

You need to open up your science book and study it. I will make it easy for you though. Look into what they call the snowball earth.

The Snowball Earth theory deals with global glaciation and is not yet accepted scientific theory. It says nothing about global sea levels

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you have an opinion as to whether or not Christianity promises that Jesus will return?

Yes --- He's coming soon.

Because if you could, you could then predict anything; "I predict the entire world will be converted, by cosmic rays, into a giant pink ball of cotton candy."

Now by your rules, this isn't a failed prophecy because I didn't say when it would happen. So if it still hasn't happened 6 Billion years from now, I still get to claim it as a true prophecy because it simply hasn't happened yet.

What you said would automatically be dismissed by Christians, as all prophecy ceased after the Scriptures were completed in 96 AD.

You can predict, yes, and good luck, but you cannot, cannot, cannot prophesy.

So you're saying that it will be very soon? How do you know? How can we tell? Christians have been saying that it will happen very soon for the past 2,000 years. It hasn't happened. They were all wrong. What makes you different?

As the song goes: Signs of the times are everywhere.

I'm saying that it was prophesied that Jesus would return and he hasn't. That's a false prophecy by any reasonable measure.

No it's not --- it's an unfulfilled prophecy.

Christians who say that there aren't any false prophecies in Christianity are overlooking the most vital of all.

Which is?

 

[Beastt]

The Bible does not say any of that stuff. You clearly do not know the Bible. It is no wonder you do not believe the Bible, because you do not have a true knowledge or understanding of the Bible.

John, you and I have been through this repeatedly. And each and every time when I present the scripture to you, word-for-word, it turns out I am right and you are wrong. What you assert the Bible says is decidedly other than what it says. I would appreciate it if you not continue in the same cycle of dishonesty.

At this point I do not think it has anything to do with the Bible anyways. You do not want to live according to the way the Bible says to live.

You are correct. I don't want to kill homosexuals, kidnap and rape women, slaughter infants or destroy animals.

So you make up stories about how the Bible is not true.

I've made up nothing John. Everything I've stated is fully supported in scripture. The problem is you stopped reading scripture a long, long time ago and started reading a demonstrable deviation from scripture. I can still tell the difference.

It is not going to work though, the truth will catch up with you. The decision has been made that your going to be hard headed and do it the hard way. I should know because I am just as hard headed as you are.

Part of this is true. We are both hard headed. The difference though is that I can produce the scripture which shows word-for-word, exactly what I said it shows.

Everytime you attempt to show me that it doesn't say what I've asserted that it says, you end up having to change much of what you present. You play word-substitution games, assert that it doesn't mean what it says and completely ignore entire verses.

It's 4:20 in the morning here. After I've had some sleep, I'll go through my points one by one and present the scripture, verbatim, which says exactly what I've asserted that it says.