FLEXIBLE CHRISTIANITY?? I DON'T THINK SO!!!

[Philip4Jesus]

After reading through alot of the threads in in forum , I think I need to clarify some things . I am shocked by the number of people who claim to be christian and yet at the sametime seem to be trying to find excuses for their sinfullness. They seem to be looking for lopeholes in GODS Word. I have mentioned this before in some of my threads and with some of you it doesn't seem to be sinking in. You seem to be looking for a flexible form of Christianity that suits your desires and needs rather than you submitting and obeying the Word of GOD.


I have come across an well written article, ( which I wish I could take credit for writting it , but I can't) that unveils the sinful motives behind the idea of flexibility in Christian beliefs.

Link to the article..., http://www.exprimare.com/dignoscentia/articles/read.asp?ArticleID=12

 

[One Son of Many]

Hiya P4J! I haven't followed the link yet but wanted to respond to your post.

I agree wholeheartedly. Seems there are many posters here at CF who take what is God's Word and twist and manipulate to make their own sins seem acceptable. It's their "interpretation". I feel that I am not worthy to go around and "interpret" God's Word. I should be humble and obedient and take it for what it says. I SHOULD CHANGE ME TO SUIT HIS WORD, NOT CHANGE HIS WORD TO SUIT ME! People like to take a law from the bible and start referencing it to this book, then that book, then so-and-so's commentary then an article they've read in T.V. Guide and come up with "Its ok if I do this sin, God doesn't mind. There is the proof!! " In actuality, all they have to do is read a simple easy-to-understand line or verse thats usually straight forward and take it for what it says! Why risk swaying from His word? I suppose the lure of this sinful world is very strong, indeed!

I'm ashamed of myself because I've fallen into this type of thing from time to time and wasn't very aware (except for that little nagging feeling deep withing my thoughts) that I was even doing this. But thanks be to the Lord for using my brothers and sisters to point these things out to me! The thing to remember, and i've said it earlier, I need to be willing to change me to suit God's word, not change God's Word to suit me!

Remember, you may be able to fool your friend. You may be able to even fool yourself. But you won't fool God.

 

[William Nunn]

Ame and amen.

 

[LuxPerpetua]

I definitely see where you are coming from, but it is a fine line. I think that we should be strict in our own beliefs and conduct but treat others gently and win them for Christ through love and kindness. For instance, I have huge issues with "Christians" who carry signs with hateful anti-gay slogans since this obviously alienates a group of people from Christ's message of love and forgiveness. I don't agree with homosexuality, but at the same time I fear that it is worse to spread a message of fear and hate. We as Christians really need to find more positive ways of dealing with sinners and leading others to Christ.

I think it is so easy to become like a Pharisee these days, and we as Christ's followers HAVE to remember that when Jesus lived he hung out with the riff-raff of his day, and chose many of these people on which to start his church. Hating the sin and not the sinner seems to be very difficult to put into practice. I, personally, would have a very hard time loving a rapist or a pedophile, and I pray everyday that God will help me open my heart, but that's tough, you know? It is a struggle to love everyone, and yet that is what Christ's commands. It helps, though, knowing that WE ALL SIN, and thus we all must continually strive to become Christ-like. It is easier to pick someone out of the mud when you're in the mud with them.

I don't think it is a good thing for us as Christians to be so harsh with each other. I think that so many times we hotly debate the peripheral issues (like creationism/evolution, female leadership, SECULAR gay rights, etc.) and ignore Christ's core teachings of love, forgiveness, compassion, and constructive fellowship. The Bible itself can be divisive at times, because the question arises, should we take EVERYTHING at face value (not to mention the difficulty of reading translations of ancient Hebrew and Greek) or are some things tempocentric? The way in which we answer this question then determines how we approach theological issues--and so, we often can be at odds with each other. I honestly wish that Christians would put more effort into building each other up in faith and love rather than tearing each other with words. We have all sinned--none of us is perfect. What one person thinks to be "an excuse for sinfulness" may be different to another based upon how one interprets the Bible (or if one thinks it should be interpreted at all). This is why it is so important that we pray to God for guidance in understanding what the Bible says is right and wrong, do our best to apply these principles to sins that aren't mentioned in the Bible, and show other sinners that all can be made new through Christ. I really get tired of seeing the "I'm better than you" attitude getting played out among Christians. Again, I think we do less damage if we just love each other and trust God to lead each person. Harsh and shaming humiliation of a person because someone else judges that that person is sinning seldom helps them with their walk with God. And let us not forget that a soft answer turneth away wrath.

 

[ShetlandRose]

Yes, I too am reading an immense departure from the faith on this forum. This is not what I expected from a Christian forum. People who claim to be Christians and to know God are conforming the Bible to accommodate their carnal natures instead of conforming their own lives to the Bible. And then they are advising others to do the same, thereby leading them down a terrible path of rebellion.

The Lord gives us the charge to “Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (II Timothy 2:15).

I think that those of us who are Bible-believing, fundamental to the Christian doctrines, and evangelical to the spread of the Gospel, need to brace ourselves to the fight against Satan and satanic forces here. We need to face the battlefield squarely using truth and with the authority and power the Holy Spirit has given us as born-again believers and mature Christians in Jesus Christ, all the while remembering that we must serve as comforters and helpers and encouragers to those in need, confused, and suffering.

Personally, in some of my posts perhaps I do sound stern, but I strive to use the gentle guidance of the Holy Spirit, wisdom, knowledge of God and the Bible, plus good common sense; and I seriously recognize that the right words can make an eternal difference.

ShetlandRose

 

[Gods_Girl]

This is what God thinks about them.

Jude 1
3Dearly loved friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the truth of the Good News.[1] God gave this unchanging truth once for all time to his holy people. 4I say this because some godless people have wormed their way in among you, saying that God's forgiveness allows us to live immoral lives. The fate of such people was determined long ago, for they have turned against our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.8 Yet these false teachers, who claim authority from their dreams, live immoral lives, defy authority, and scoff at the power of the glorious ones

They fit right into that scripture!

Maybe you think I'm to blunt, but I'm angry because they scoff at Gods truth and encourage many to sin.

 

[marc]

The hardest part is when you are trying to answer someone biblically and you find yourself being the minority amongst the so-called christians. Although,I do know which ones of you I can trust by your posts and I will PM you from time to time and ask for your help.

In Christ

Marc

 

[LuxPerpetua]

Be strong in your own faith, but guide others gently. Seek God everywhere and in all his sheep. We all have words of wisdom to offer and need to hear others' advice, and it is a shame for someone to exclude a fellow Christian from dialogue because of such judgment--especially when Christ tells us not to judge but love one another. This attitude of "my faith is better than yours" (which is what this statement essentially is: " . . . people who claim to be christian and yet at the sametime seem to be trying to find excuses for their sinfulness") also sounds a lot like Christ's condemnation toward the Pharisees. This isn't to hurt anyone's feelings, only my opinion. We should work to support one another in our walks of faith, not condemn. We are of all denominations on this board, but we are all one in Christ. Don't doubt another's faith--that is NOT for you to judge.

 

[marc]

Be strong in your own faith, but guide others gently. Seek God everywhere and in all his sheep. We all have words of wisdom to offer and need to hear others' advice, and it is a shame for someone to exclude a fellow Christian from dialogue because of such judgment--especially when Christ tells us not to judge but love one another. This attitude of "my faith is better than yours" (which is what this statement essentially is: " . . . people who claim to be christian and yet at the sametime seem to be trying to find excuses for their sinfulness") also sounds a lot like Christ's condemnation toward the Pharisees. This isn't to hurt anyone's feelings, only my opinion. We should work to support one another in our walks of faith, not condemn. We are of all denominations on this board, but we are all one in Christ. Don't doubt another's faith--that is NOT for you to judge.

I think you are a little off base here. We are talking about heresy, not how much faith someone has. When I (and you I hope) see someone teaching someone else heresy, we are to stand up (with love) for righteousness. It is nothing but sin to look the other way. This is by no means to be construed as meaning that we should be mean, but we must stand up for righteousness when heresies are being taught.

In Christ

Marc

 

[ShetlandRose]

Faith is a gift and comes as the Word of God is received. (Ephesians 2:8,9; I Corinthians 12:9; Romans 10:17) To have faith is to believe on a truth and then to act upon it, hence belief and action equals faith.

Sin begins in the heart and then finds expression through outward action. The attitude of the heart must be dealt with in order to change the actions. There is a necessity in offering wise counsel which includes Biblical truth.

ShetlandRose

 

[LuxPerpetua]

The problem is defining heresy. Differing personal interpretations of the Bible make unity in all beliefs difficult. If you, in your interpretation of God's Word, feel something that someone says to contradict God's will, you should definitely speak up but in a way that is respectful of both your beliefs and the other person. So often Christians say words of condemnation to each other that not only fail to correct the problem at hand but alienate another believer. Some things we as Christians will always disagree on (hence, the Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox debates), but we are all strong, or seeking to become stronger, in our walk with Christ (or else, why would we be here at CF?). My point, though, is that what seems "right" to one Christian may not be so clear cut with another Christian. If you want others to see your point of view and change their ways, then it is best to speak to them in an empowering rather than belittling way. Exclusion seems to me to be belittling and alienating, and in general, unhelpful to other Christians. I am responding to this statement especially: "Although, I do know which ones of you I can trust by your posts and I will PM you from time to time and ask for your help." Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way (and I hope that I am!) but this sentence seems rather narrow-minded to me.

 

[marc]

The problem is defining heresy. Differing personal interpretations of the Bible make unity in all beliefs difficult. If you, in your interpretation of God's Word, feel something that someone says to contradict God's will, you should definitely speak up but in a way that is respectful of both your beliefs and the other person. So often Christians say words of condemnation to each other that not only fail to correct the problem at hand but alienate another believer. Some things we as Christians will always disagree on (hence, the Protestant, Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox debates), but we are all strong, or seeking to become stronger, in our walk with Christ (or else, why would we be here at CF?). My point, though, is that what seems "right" to one Christian may not be so clear cut with another Christian. If you want others to see your point of view and change their ways, then it is best to speak to them in an empowering rather than belittling way. Exclusion seems to me to be belittling and alienating, and in general, unhelpful to other Christians. I am responding to this statement especially: "Although, I do know which ones of you I can trust by your posts and I will PM you from time to time and ask for your help." Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way (and I hope that I am!) but this sentence seems rather narrow-minded to me.

Yes, you are reading it wrong,very much so, but you are just to busy trying to prove your point that you are essentially becoming what you are speaking against. I understand exactly what you are saying, but I just don't think that is what was going on on this thread at all. You just came in with a whole different subject, but you are absolutely correct in it. I'm with you, you just missed my point. I'm not going to waste time trying to carify it, let's just drop it.

In Christ
Marc

 

[LuxPerpetua]

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[looksgood]

How many times have I heard those claiming christ say "I don't care what the bible says, it is just wrong!"?!

How many times have I quoted whole chapters only to hear them say it doesn't mean what it seems to mean?

How many times have I heard the abomination of homosexuality refered to as love when love does not rejoice in iniquity?!

How many times have I heard the "church" speak things that go against Gods word, because they have conformed their minds to the world?!

I have heard people say they will not follow certain biblical prinsaples because they believe they are wrong (such as wives submit to your husbands). I have heard women say "I WILL NOT SUBMIT! HE IS NOT THE LEADER OF OUR FAMILY! I AM!"!!!!

How long will the world claim christ and deny all He has commanded and said?! How long will they twist His word?! It has been twisted now so much that there are "ESTABLISHED" false doctorins in the church!

How can one call themselves a christian, and not conform to Gods word, wether their fleashly minds think it is right or not?!

 

[Philip4Jesus]

Hiya P4J! I haven't followed the link yet but wanted to respond to your post.

I agree wholeheartedly. Seems there are many posters here at CF who take what is God's Word and twist and manipulate to make their own sins seem acceptable. It's their "interpretation". I feel that I am not worthy to go around and "interpret" God's Word. I should be humble and obedient and take it for what it says. I SHOULD CHANGE ME TO SUIT HIS WORD, NOT CHANGE HIS WORD TO SUIT ME! People like to take a law from the bible and start referencing it to this book, then that book, then so-and-so's commentary then an article they've read in T.V. Guide and come up with "Its ok if I do this sin, God doesn't mind. There is the proof!! " In actuality, all they have to do is read a simple easy-to-understand line or verse thats usually straight forward and take it for what it says! Why risk swaying from His word? I suppose the lure of this sinful world is very strong, indeed!

I'm ashamed of myself because I've fallen into this type of thing from time to time and wasn't very aware (except for that little nagging feeling deep withing my thoughts) that I was even doing this. But thanks be to the Lord for using my brothers and sisters to point these things out to me! The thing to remember, and i've said it earlier, I need to be willing to change me to suit God's word, not change God's Word to suit me!

Remember, you may be able to fool your friend. You may be able to even fool yourself. But you won't fool God.

Well said One Son Of Many. I have been expressing the same sort of concerns in some of my past posts/threads. Alot of the time , I wonder alot about these so called Christian forums on the internet( I myself try to avoid them , with the exception of this one) they seem to exist only for atheist to bash christians. Take CF for example , can you really expect to find sincere and devoted christians in a forum which allows atheists to bash and insult christians and their devotion to GOD?? I don't think so. I know there are some of us here that are good sincere , seeking to please GOD christians , but I think we are the minority rather than the majority . Now I'm not suggesting that we should stop coming here, because I think that would kind of be like turning ones back on people in need to hear GODs Word/theTruth . This place needs us. We need to defend our faith and Christianity.

Just a little side note..., I have not read all of the comments posted by the rest of you here , but I think we are all in agreement pretty much. I know alot of the time I feel like saying to those who are lukewarm Christians here " What part of Thou Shall Not don't you understand??! But let us who do have an understanding of Biblical truth and of the way GOD wants us to live( how to please GOD), not hesitate to share it with others.

 

[looksgood]

In the short time after posting this last thing I have already come across a thread where "christians" tried to say it is ok to have sex with one who is not your wife!!!! And when the word fornication was brought up they said it was only prostatution!!! Don't they know that they defile the temple of God in doing so?! Do they not know that prostatution is not only sex for money, but it is for pleasure or any other reason?! One who gives themselves to another who is not their own flesh prostitutes the temple of God!

Besides, EVEN THE DICTIONARY DOES NOT MIX WORDS ON THIS!
Webster's dictionary:
Fornicate v.- to indulge in unlawful sexual intercourse. Fornication n.- sexual intercourse between unmarried persons.

How long will people twist Gods words and change the meaning of the words to pervert them?!

 

[WeakButHopeful]

I don't expect this comment to fly, but I feel it is important to make and so I will.

I understand the OP that there are many who twist the words of God or use them in combination with others' words to justify their own actions. And yes, if we feel someone is doing that and if after praying about it we feel led to lovingly explain how we feel differently then that is right.

However, there are two aspects of this thread I do not think go along with Jesus Christ's teachings and example (I'm not saying these aspects are in each post on the thread, just that at various times while reading the thread or the article pointed at by the OP link I saw suggestions of these ideas). And so, I'll just express my concerns and let the chips fall where they may:

* judgmentalism just doesn't fly in Christianity. I know, some say they're not being judgmental, just defending the Word of God. Well, I have no fear that the Word of God will triumph, my only concern is that the most souls are saved (including mine). If saving the most souls meant seeking out error and departure from the Word of God and presenting it in a logical argument to each sinner on the planet, then I think Jesus would have modelled that for us. I don't think He did. He went to the sinners and encouraged the sinners to come to Him. And unless I'm mistaken there's no reference to Him saying those with lax morals were not meant to approach Him because it would make the surrounding area less "Christian" (yes, I realize some behaviour is totally unacceptable and cannot be tolerated, but there's a difference between bringing havoc to a group as opposed to demonstrating lax moral opinions). In my opinion (though I grant it is arguable) many who crucified Jesus felt they were defending the Word of God.

* the Bible is a very large volume of books. In my opinion (again) it is just not possible to quote from any single sentence of the Bible and use it to demonstrate that what someone else is doing is wrong. If so, why do preachers and Bible scholars study so long and hard in multiple languages? Or look at Jesus' own reaction to the Old Testament law. Sometimes His actions seemed to suggest a lack of direct applicability (His association with prostitutes and lepers, speaking with Samaritan women, reaping on the Sabbath, etc. etc.) and other occassions He seemed to act as though a much higher standard existed than was even called for in the Old Testament (divorce, forgiving 7 times 70, priests should not parade around in fancy robes so as to impress others, follow Him despite duties to father and mother, etc. etc.) Therefore I believe that after prayer (asking for the grace of discernment from the Holy Spirit) and study of the Bible as it relates to a certain situation in my life I can try to make the best response possible, but I won't know for sure how I did or how my efforts assisted or interfered with God's plan until I face Him for my judgment (that's the judgmentalism I'm worried about). Now, sometimes my best understanding of what is right will cause me to bring a concern to another Christian, but I pray that if I have done everything above, that my loving attempt will not be against God's will (though there's no guarantee).

And they'll know we are Christians by our love.

 

[kdet]

How many times have I heard those claiming christ say "I don't care what the bible says, it is just wrong!"?!

How many times have I quoted whole chapters only to hear them say it doesn't mean what it seems to mean?

How many times have I heard the abomination of homosexuality refered to as love when love does not rejoice in iniquity?!

How many times have I heard the "church" speak things that go against Gods word, because they have conformed their minds to the world?!

I have heard people say they will not follow certain biblical prinsaples because they believe they are wrong (such as wives submit to your husbands). I have heard women say "I WILL NOT SUBMIT! HE IS NOT THE LEADER OF OUR FAMILY! I AM!"!!!!

How long will the world claim christ and deny all He has commanded and said?! How long will they twist His word?! It has been twisted now so much that there are "ESTABLISHED" false doctorins in the church!

How can one call themselves a christian, and not conform to Gods word, wether their fleashly minds think it is right or not?!

what a great post to read this Sunday morning

 

[flyfishing]

I don't expect this comment to fly, but I feel it is important to make and so I will.

I understand the OP that there are many who twist the words of God or use them in combination with others' words to justify their own actions. And yes, if we feel someone is doing that and if after praying about it we feel led to lovingly explain how we feel differently then that is right.

However, there are two aspects of this thread I do not think go along with Jesus Christ's teachings and example (I'm not saying these aspects are in each post on the thread, just that at various times while reading the thread or the article pointed at by the OP link I saw suggestions of these ideas). And so, I'll just express my concerns and let the chips fall where they may:

* judgmentalism just doesn't fly in Christianity. I know, some say they're not being judgmental, just defending the Word of God. Well, I have no fear that the Word of God will triumph, my only concern is that the most souls are saved (including mine). If saving the most souls meant seeking out error and departure from the Word of God and presenting it in a logical argument to each sinner on the planet, then I think Jesus would have modelled that for us. I don't think He did. He went to the sinners and encouraged the sinners to come to Him. And unless I'm mistaken there's no reference to Him saying those with lax morals were not meant to approach Him because it would make the surrounding area less "Christian" (yes, I realize some behaviour is totally unacceptable and cannot be tolerated, but there's a difference between bringing havoc to a group as opposed to demonstrating lax moral opinions). In my opinion (though I grant it is arguable) many who crucified Jesus felt they were defending the Word of God.

* the Bible is a very large volume of books. In my opinion (again) it is just not possible to quote from any single sentence of the Bible and use it to demonstrate that what someone else is doing is wrong. If so, why do preachers and Bible scholars study so long and hard in multiple languages? Or look at Jesus' own reaction to the Old Testament law. Sometimes His actions seemed to suggest a lack of direct applicability (His association with prostitutes and lepers, speaking with Samaritan women, reaping on the Sabbath, etc. etc.) and other occassions He seemed to act as though a much higher standard existed than was even called for in the Old Testament (divorce, forgiving 7 times 70, priests should not parade around in fancy robes so as to impress others, follow Him despite duties to father and mother, etc. etc.) Therefore I believe that after prayer (asking for the grace of discernment from the Holy Spirit) and study of the Bible as it relates to a certain situation in my life I can try to make the best response possible, but I won't know for sure how I did or how my efforts assisted or interfered with God's plan until I face Him for my judgment (that's the judgmentalism I'm worried about). Now, sometimes my best understanding of what is right will cause me to bring a concern to another Christian, but I pray that if I have done everything above, that my loving attempt will not be against God's will (though there's no guarantee).

And they'll know we are Christians by our love.

The bible first of all is really simple. Let me sum it up for you. Put the LORD jesus christ first in every desicion and ask yourself whether you could see him doing that or whether said action brings glory or reproach to his name. It really bothers me when people try to complicate the word of god. its not hard to understand,its hard to submit... And that is the problem most people are not willing to pay the price. They dont realize that by holding on to their lifes they end up losing said life, but if we can only give our hearts fully and exclusively to him then we gain our life. So much sorrow and pain are caused because we dont trust fully Christ and make him our all in all.


I must say i have similar concerns that this thread was leaning towards being judgemental but as i read it i see people that are in love with someone who are upset at that love being trifled with.. It is a fearful thing for those who have done despite unto the Spirit of grace..

As for those who are truly struggling, i empathize with you but hanging out with those who are also weak will not help you. Sometimes your boot camp experience will cause some hard words to be said towards you but better are the corrections from the righteous then the empathizing of the carnal man...

 

[LuxPerpetua]

I don't expect this comment to fly, but I feel it is important to make and so I will.

I understand the OP that there are many who twist the words of God or use them in combination with others' words to justify their own actions. And yes, if we feel someone is doing that and if after praying about it we feel led to lovingly explain how we feel differently then that is right.

However, there are two aspects of this thread I do not think go along with Jesus Christ's teachings and example (I'm not saying these aspects are in each post on the thread, just that at various times while reading the thread or the article pointed at by the OP link I saw suggestions of these ideas). And so, I'll just express my concerns and let the chips fall where they may:

* judgmentalism just doesn't fly in Christianity. I know, some say they're not being judgmental, just defending the Word of God. Well, I have no fear that the Word of God will triumph, my only concern is that the most souls are saved (including mine). If saving the most souls meant seeking out error and departure from the Word of God and presenting it in a logical argument to each sinner on the planet, then I think Jesus would have modelled that for us. I don't think He did. He went to the sinners and encouraged the sinners to come to Him. And unless I'm mistaken there's no reference to Him saying those with lax morals were not meant to approach Him because it would make the surrounding area less "Christian" (yes, I realize some behaviour is totally unacceptable and cannot be tolerated, but there's a difference between bringing havoc to a group as opposed to demonstrating lax moral opinions). In my opinion (though I grant it is arguable) many who crucified Jesus felt they were defending the Word of God.

* the Bible is a very large volume of books. In my opinion (again) it is just not possible to quote from any single sentence of the Bible and use it to demonstrate that what someone else is doing is wrong. If so, why do preachers and Bible scholars study so long and hard in multiple languages? Or look at Jesus' own reaction to the Old Testament law. Sometimes His actions seemed to suggest a lack of direct applicability (His association with prostitutes and lepers, speaking with Samaritan women, reaping on the Sabbath, etc. etc.) and other occassions He seemed to act as though a much higher standard existed than was even called for in the Old Testament (divorce, forgiving 7 times 70, priests should not parade around in fancy robes so as to impress others, follow Him despite duties to father and mother, etc. etc.) Therefore I believe that after prayer (asking for the grace of discernment from the Holy Spirit) and study of the Bible as it relates to a certain situation in my life I can try to make the best response possible, but I won't know for sure how I did or how my efforts assisted or interfered with God's plan until I face Him for my judgment (that's the judgmentalism I'm worried about). Now, sometimes my best understanding of what is right will cause me to bring a concern to another Christian, but I pray that if I have done everything above, that my loving attempt will not be against God's will (though there's no guarantee).

And they'll know we are Christians by our love.

This is how I feel, too--only you put it so much more eloquently into words. I think the Bible is complex and not always black and white on important issues. Having translations of the original Hebrew and Greek texts also add to the complexity, as well as differing Catholic and Protestant Bibles and two millennia of Biblical exegesis to contend with. I don't think that we should be afraid of alternate interpretations of Scripture, but rather that we should pray for better clarity of the teachings on which our faith is based so that we can be morally solid (to the best of our abilities) in our own lives. I'm not always certain that there is ONE right way to interpret Scripture myself, although I pray with all of my heart that God will show me His meaning. I think that many Christians aren't seeking "loopholes to sin" as much as they are just offering different interpretations of Scripture. For those who are seeking opportunities to justify sinning . . . well . . . only God knows their hearts and they will have to answer to Him.