Fleeing to Mars not of God

[stevevw]

If defence is misused does one lose the right to defence? Weapons do not seem to stop the evil in the world so far! So why is 'defence' weapons needed? If we set aside the proxy wars like Gaza and Ukraine etc, I see one site lists about 12 million killed in wars of the USA.

"

DEATH TOLL FROM MODERN AMERICAN WARS​

KILLED IN THE NAME OF "FREEDOM"​

OVER 12 MILLION DEAD IN AMERICA'S WARS​

SINCE WORLD WAR II"

DEATH TOLL FROM MODERN AMERICAN WARS

The death toll of over 12 million in America's wars for freedom: wars in Korea, Vietnam and The War on Terror in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan

www.worldfuturefund.org

Here in Australia we banned guns years ago. There are guns but they are minimal legally and only for farmers or sports and have strict licencing. That came after a massacre of 22 people in a lone gun shooting in Tasmania. England also has no guns used by Bobbies. Though in recent times some dectectives do.

As a result our countries have had little gun killings. Though its increasing in recent times. But just having no leathal means of defense reduced killings. I think it also reduced violence as ultimately it was face to face combat if it did happen and crims were not going to outright physically fight coppers lol.

But in recent times we have seen a rise in knife killings. So regardless I think the political climate and culture wars have caused people to become more extreme and violent and that itself is a moral and cultural; issue that is leading to attacks where people are now worried about their lives.

But still most here don't bother with guns and just mind their own business. A fight or domestic arguement won't end up with an accidental killing as much.

So in some ways allowing guns creates the need to defend with guns and defend with guns creates the situation of more dying by guns on both sides. There came a time where people could not do without a gun. But we can make it that we don't make it worse.

Convert them? Preach the gospel? How can big countries like the USA accuse others of not caring about peace?

Well yes thats the obvious one as this is better than offering world peace or ideas about how to get along. I mean why can't these other religions extremist or activists just apply common sense and empathy. You don't have to be a Christian for that one. In fact Christs truth is common sense humanity.

But its because they reject God they turn to false and evil gods. They turn to human made ideas about how the world should be. They preach peace and love while milking them foir what they can get. Then complain when it blows up in their face and they have a more complicated and volitile situation to deal with.

If they are to convert then first they need to pull the log out of their own eye and become rightious and above reproach that they cannot be blamed. That the enermy cannot say they are unworthy or corrupt. That they see Christ and turn to God. But thats not going to happen. Its up to the Christ church to shine that example to the world. Even if that means being sacrificed for that good.

Who is 'we'? People in some countries consider the US and Israel to be terrorists. The Russians consider Ukraine terrorists.

Yes this is what I am alluding to above. That they are all hypocrites one way or another. One is extreme and barbaric and the other cunning and manipulating. They are two sides of the same coin that defy Christ as our example of God.

Again, there is that 'we'. There is only one way to peace - Jesus. The weapons of His people are not physical but spiritual. Winning the war of hearts and minds using spiritual weapons.

Yeah sorry, its a habit lol. I did qualify this by saying without CHrist its always going to be a mess. I use 'we' interchangably sorry. I meant we are in you and I and everyone on planet earth who see the mess the world is in. In that sense we are all humans on planet earth.

But within that there is the Christians and the world which see this predicament and the solution differently.

Yes ultimately its a spiritual battle. All the politics, religions, everything comes down to a spiritual battle. That is why the world is getting smaller. Its no longer that nations problem or this nations problem. A disaster in a far away region becomes our problem. Fighting in other nations becomes a world problem and climate change is a world problem. Economies are linked and we are becoming one consciousness.

This consciousness is either God conscious throught Christ or its world conscious through human made ideas and gods. Thats what its coming down to even within families where members are fighting over culture and belief and disowning each other.

That is exactly what Christ predicted. These are signs of the times like the changing of the seasons.

 

[truthpls]

Ok, you are not open to learn anything new, so I see no point in continuing. And your claims about the firmament are too absurd to have any rational conversation about it. It begins to remind me the wild fantasies of flat earthers.

Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years

Genesis 1:15
and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so


Gen 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

When the portals of heaven were closed, the water stopped falling. There was enough water to cover the planet that came down. There is no reason to have to assume that the water in the windows of heaven had to have originated hundreds or thousands of feet up. We do know that there was water up there above that same firmament where the sun and stars were created.


Genesis 1:7
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so

The firmament where the stars are. Above that.

 

[truthpls]

Here in Australia we banned guns years ago. There are guns but they are minimal legally and only for farmers or sports and have strict licencing. That came after a massacre of 22 people in a lone gun shooting in Tasmania. England also has no guns used by Bobbies. Though in recent times some dectectives do.

As a result our countries have had little gun killings. Though its increasing in recent times. But just having no leathal means of defense reduced killings. I think it also reduced violence as ultimately it was face to face combat if it did happen and crims were not going to outright physically fight coppers lol.

But in recent times we have seen a rise in knife killings. So regardless I think the political climate and culture wars have caused people to become more extreme and violent and that itself is a moral and cultural; issue that is leading to attacks where people are now worried about their lives.

But still most here don't bother with guns and just mind their own business. A fight or domestic arguement won't end up with an accidental killing as much.

So in some ways allowing guns creates the need to defend with guns and defend with guns creates the situation of more dying by guns on both sides. There came a time where people could not do without a gun. But we can make it that we don't make it worse.

The issue I raised was that the word defence was misused such as the US dept of defence actually being something else. Actual defence by people of their families is fine. With guns or sticks and stones

Well yes thats the obvious one as this is better than offering world peace or ideas about how to get along. I mean why can't these other religions extremist or activists just apply common sense and empathy. You don't have to be a Christian for that one. In fact Christs truth is common sense humanity.

No one can apply love without being saved. There is only one way to peace.

But its because they reject God they turn to false and evil gods. They turn to human made ideas about how the world should be. They preach peace and love while milking them foir what they can get. Then complain when it blows up in their face and they have a more complicated and volitile situation to deal with.

Yes and it is not only false gods that are used, but doing evil in the name of God also.

If they are to convert then first they need to pull the log out of their own eye and become rightious and above reproach that they cannot be blamed. That the enermy cannot say they are unworthy or corrupt. That they see Christ and turn to God. But thats not going to happen. Its up to the Christ church to shine that example to the world. Even if that means being sacrificed for that good.

Except that many warmongers claim to be part of some church. Once again we have a misused word. 'Church'

Yes this is what I am alluding to above. That they are all hypocrites one way or another. One is extreme and barbaric and the other cunning and manipulating. They are two sides of the same coin that defy Christ as our example of God.

Yeah sorry, its a habit lol. I did qualify this by saying without CHrist its always going to be a mess. I use 'we' interchangably sorry. I meant we are in you and I and everyone on planet earth who see the mess the world is in. In that sense we are all humans on planet earth.

I would tend to agree, but I noticed one poster here was trying to say how wonderful things are getting these days and how hunger was being fixed etc. (then he blamed Trump for changing all that)

But within that there is the Christians and the world which see this predicament and the solution differently.

Yes ultimately its a spiritual battle. All the politics, religions, everything comes down to a spiritual battle. That is why the world is getting smaller. Its no longer that nations problem or this nations problem. A disaster in a far away region becomes our problem. Fighting in other nations becomes a world problem and climate change is a world problem. Economies are linked and we are becoming one consciousness.

When you say 'our' problem it seems you are talking about a nation like Australia. Far away thing become their problems also. I would think all problems come from the sin problem and that is everywhere in the world. So if a nation finds itself facing a 'problem' the question is what is the answer? Wars come from various nations dealing with the problem the wrong way! Since most nations are secular, there is no alternative but for them to deal with it the wrong way.

This consciousness is either God conscious throught Christ or its world conscious through human made ideas and gods. Thats what its coming down to even within families where members are fighting over culture and belief and disowning each other.

Jesus came to bring division in families. Because not all will choose Him.

That is exactly what Christ predicted. These are signs of the times like the changing of the seasons.

Yes. It was all foretold.

 

[stevevw]

The issue I raised was that the word defence was misused such as the US dept of defence actually being something else. Actual defence by people of their families is fine. With guns or sticks and stones

Yes I agree. I understand the destinction. Its an important one.

No one can apply love without being saved. There is only one way to peace.

Yes true, the worlds idea of love and peace will always fall short. In some ways unless the world is born again or is Gods Kingdom it will never find peace on earth. So the world or perhaps creation itself is fallen and in need to salvation.

Yes and it is not only false gods that are used, but doing evil in the name of God also.

Yes and then turn the evil and lie into the truth and the truth into a lie. This is how satan works. He doesn't just announce he is satan. He uses lookalike truths based on the worlds idea of truth. As Christians we can tell the lies but the world cannot.

There is no grounding except for ideas based on what humans have come up with. Rather than Gods word. Gods word is turned into a myth and superstition of ancient times to be done away with as its too controlling of human flourishing.

Except that many warmongers claim to be part of some church. Once again we have a misused word. 'Church'

Yes this is the idea as to not make it obvious that they are acting in lies and misrepresentations. MIx the truth with lies and before too long many are fooled. Satan is not going to announce himself to the world as satan. He will come as the wolf in sheeps clothing. And he has produced some pretty slick sheep that many find hard to tell because they use all the right kind of words that sound pretty good.

I would tend to agree, but I noticed one poster here was trying to say how wonderful things are getting these days and how hunger was being fixed etc. (then he blamed Trump for changing all that)

Then we would have to reconcile that there was a majority of people who thought the exact opposite. That things were getting bad, the truth was being denied, an alternative reality was being promoted based on a progressive ideology.

Thats not to say that Trump supporters are of God and hold the true way either. But at least pragmatically that is what appears to have happened. Maybe Trump will go overboard to the other ewxtreme as party politics usually does over recent decades.

Maybe he will reestablish some basic truths that Christian nations were based on. BUt I don't think any world government will ultimately stand for God and example Christ as did the great men of the bible like Moses. I think I heard one bishop saying Trump was the new Constantine. There are some paralelles. But look what happened to the church after Constantine when power went to its head.

When you say 'our' problem it seems you are talking about a nation like Australia. Far away thing become their problems also.

I know, I tend to be referring to people in more than one context. Its a bad habit I developed. Not that its wrong but that I don't always clarify the context. I do mean 'we' when I'm speaking about the planet and the state of affairs as this will affect everyone, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Gentiles, Australians, Americans, Brits, Iranians, Palestinians everyone.

But I don't destinguish that as Christians we are not of the world spiritually.

I would think all problems come from the sin problem and that is everywhere in the world.

Yes we are all sinners and fallen short. In that sense this world is condemned and will be renewed like ourselves. But to non CHristians this world is all there is. So though we all face the same outlook we have different beliefs about what this means. That is the great message of salvation that this world is not the end.

So if a nation finds itself facing a 'problem' the question is what is the answer? Wars come from various nations dealing with the problem the wrong way! Since most nations are secular, there is no alternative but for them to deal with it the wrong way.

Yes and the thing is we can look back on our history and see that we have done it the wrong way over and over and over again. BUt still we never learn and repeat the same. We just find new ways to justify it.

Or like you say create lies to justify it which are hiding alterior motives as by nature we think of self without subjecting ourself to God. All through history when nations or Empires defied God they made themselves the gods and it never ended well.

Jesus came to bring division in families. Because not all will choose Him.

Yes and I think this will be a telling factor. That as we go one we will see a sharper destinction of what it means to stand for Christ or not. Christ said you are either for me or against me.

So if the world is moving towards the end then this destinction will become greater and those in Christ will be easily identified. In this they will be both a beacon of light but also a focus of attack being that primarily this comes down to a spiritual battle.

Yes. It was all foretold.

And its happening before our eyes. Just as we can tell the change of seasons.

Whether we get to Mars or not in the meantime, who knows.

 

[truthpls]

Yes I agree. I understand the destinction. Its an important one.

Yes true, the worlds idea of love and peace will always fall short. In some ways unless the world is born again or is Gods Kingdom it will never find peace on earth. So the world or perhaps creation itself is fallen and in need to salvation.

Interesting when thinking about 'the creation' In the bible I think it is earthcentric and mankindcentric. The stars were made for signs for man to see the sun was made to light earth etc. One day the universe will pass away, but man will still be here and the earth. God is bringing His (ours also) city down to the earth. So I think that is one area that science has fallen flat as a flounder, in thinking man and earth is just another little insignificant blue dot in space.

Yes and then turn the evil and lie into the truth and the truth into a lie. This is how satan works. He doesn't just announce he is satan. He uses lookalike truths based on the worlds idea of truth. As Christians we can tell the lies but the world cannot.

There is no grounding except for ideas based on what humans have come up with. Rather than Gods word. Gods word is turned into a myth and superstition of ancient times to be done away with as its too controlling of human flourishing.

Yes, same old story since the garden. Satan tells us that God is lying, and that to flourish and be actually wise we need to listen to him.

Yes this is the idea as to not make it obvious that they are acting in lies and misrepresentations. MIx the truth with lies and before too long many are fooled. Satan is not going to announce himself to the world as satan. He will come as the wolf in sheeps clothing. And he has produced some pretty slick sheep that many find hard to tell because they use all the right kind of words that sound pretty good.

Then we would have to reconcile that there was a majority of people who thought the exact opposite. That things were getting bad, the truth was being denied, an alternative reality was being promoted based on a progressive ideology.

Yes, and in places like Canada it still is.

Thats not to say that Trump supporters are of God and hold the true way either. But at least pragmatically that is what appears to have happened. Maybe Trump will go overboard to the other ewxtreme as party politics usually does over recent decades.

Trump is a mixed bag. Getting rid of woke garbage is good. Threatening neighbours that their country should die and go away and be taken over by the USA - I do not see as good. Nor the sick idea that people of Gaza should all leave, or his support of the ongoing terror against the people there.

Maybe he will reestablish some basic truths that Christian nations were based on. BUt I don't think any world government will ultimately stand for God and example Christ as did the great men of the bible like Moses. I think I heard one bishop saying Trump was the new Constantine. There are some paralelles. But look what happened to the church after Constantine when power went to its head.

That depends how late it really is. We don't know. I suspect we are near the end of the road of history and that attempts to put a finger in the dyke of wickedness may be unsuccessful. As mentioned, since Trump supported the aggression and murders of Israel he lost any right to act as some beacon of God.

I know, I tend to be referring to people in more than one context. Its a bad habit I developed. Not that its wrong but that I don't always clarify the context. I do mean 'we' when I'm speaking about the planet and the state of affairs as this will affect everyone, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Gentiles, Australians, Americans, Brits, Iranians, Palestinians everyone.

But I don't destinguish that as Christians we are not of the world spiritually.

Yes we are all sinners and fallen short. In that sense this world is condemned and will be renewed like ourselves. But to non CHristians this world is all there is. So though we all face the same outlook we have different beliefs about what this means. That is the great message of salvation that this world is not the end.

Yes and the thing is we can look back on our history and see that we have done it the wrong way over and over and over again. BUt still we never learn and repeat the same. We just find new ways to justify it.

I think there is enough of a lesson there already that generations can look back after He returns and see what was going on.

Or like you say create lies to justify it which are hiding alterior motives as by nature we think of self without subjecting ourself to God. All through history when nations or Empires defied God they made themselves the gods and it never ended well.

Yes and I think this will be a telling factor. That as we go one we will see a sharper destinction of what it means to stand for Christ or not. Christ said you are either for me or against me.

So if the world is moving towards the end then this destinction will become greater and those in Christ will be easily identified. In this they will be both a beacon of light but also a focus of attack being that primarily this comes down to a spiritual battle.

Right and never so clearly as in that world after believers are gone, when multitudes of new believers (Jewish and otherwise) come to faith

And its happening before our eyes. Just as we can tell the change of seasons.

Whether we get to Mars or not in the meantime, who knows.

Exactly. It is a useless endeavour at best that has no hope of saving mankind as it is falsely presented as possibly doing.

 

[MarkSB]

Whew... this thread.

To be clear: I'm not a fan of Elon Musk by any stretch of the imagination. But now space exploration is evil?

How about the development of the internet, and all the money which was (and still is) spent on that? Is that evil and an affront to God, and money which should have been spent on the poor? If so, then why not boycott the internet to show your conviction?

I'm all for giving money to the poor, but I don't think it needs to be done by declaring space exploration to be evil. The people who go on and on about this type of thing are very selective about the things they choose to condemn, and that is somewhat telling.

Estimates from Google AI:
Initial government investment in the internet: $324 million
Infrastructure support for broadband access: $65 billion
Private investment in network capabilities: $1.6 trillion

And that likely doesn't even scratch the surface, because it doesn't include what consumers have spent on internet devices.

 

[truthpls]

Whew... this thread.

To be clear: I'm not a fan of Elon Musk by any stretch of the imagination. But now space exploration is evil?

From the fruits so far I would say it is not a good thing

How about the development of the internet, and all the money which was (and still is) spent on that?

How about..[.list of thousands of other things that may not be so good either] - ? Two, or a thousand wrongs do not make a right

Is that evil and an affront to God, and money which should have been spent on the poor? If so, then why not boycott the internet to show your conviction?

How about use what we have the best we can? Do you think all people have to either go full Amish, or embrace any and all evils that may come along?

I'm all for giving money to the poor, but I don't think it needs to be done by declaring space exploration to be evil.

No, that could be done in many other ways as well. But since trillions have gone into the black space hole, why exclude them?

The people who go on and on about this type of thing are very selective about the things they choose to condemn, and that is somewhat telling.

No, you see a thread is just a little focused topic. It should not and does not cover all things in the universe.

Estimates from Google AI:
Initial government investment in the internet: $324 million
Infrastructure support for broadband access: $65 billion
Private investment in network capabilities: $1.6 trillion

Chump change compared to some other things we might focus on if the thread were not about the Chicken Little quest to flee earth and weaponize space etc etc. Example:, one country alone --

"Through Fiscal Year 2022, the United States federal government has spent and obligated $8 trillion dollars on the post-9/11 wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and elsewhere."

Economic Costs | Costs of War

The Costs of War Project is a team of 35 scholars, legal experts, human rights practitioners, and physicians, which began its work in 2011. We use research and a public website to facilitate debate about the costs of the post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

watson.brown.edu

Or this example:

"

REPORT: Abortion Costs U.S. Economy $6.9 Trillion"​

REPORT: Abortion Costs U.S. Economy $6.9 Trillion – Ways and Means

waysandmeans.house.gov

 

[Ophiolite]

No, that could be done in many other ways as well. But since trillions have gone into the black space hole, why exclude them?

You seem to ignore the value brought by communications satellites, weather satellites, mapping satellites, earth observation satellites tracking a vast array of variables that improve our understanding of climate, of crop production, etc. The expansion of our knowledge of the solar system and its moons, planets, asteroids, comets, solar wind, etc. I summarise only, but challenge what seems to be your belief that trillions have been wasted. Perhaps you meant something different.

 

[MarkSB]

From the fruits so far I would say it is not a good thing

How about..[.list of thousands of other things that may not be so good either] - ? Two, or a thousand wrongs do not make a right

How about use what we have the best we can? Do you think all people have to either go full Amish, or embrace any and all evils that may come along?

No, that could be done in many other ways as well. But since trillions have gone into the black space hole, why exclude them?

No, you see a thread is just a little focused topic. It should not and does not cover all things in the universe.

Chump change compared to some other things we might focus on if the thread were not about the Chicken Little quest to flee earth and weaponize space etc etc. Example:, one country alone --

"Through Fiscal Year 2022, the United States federal government has spent and obligated $8 trillion dollars on the post-9/11 wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq and elsewhere."

Economic Costs | Costs of War

The Costs of War Project is a team of 35 scholars, legal experts, human rights practitioners, and physicians, which began its work in 2011. We use research and a public website to facilitate debate about the costs of the post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

watson.brown.edu

Or this example:

"

REPORT: Abortion Costs U.S. Economy $6.9 Trillion"​

REPORT: Abortion Costs U.S. Economy $6.9 Trillion – Ways and Means

waysandmeans.house.gov

I'm not going to bother to address everything bundled in this post, or try to sort through everything in your ongoing rant. But as one of the other posters mentioned, you're ignoring all of the everyday benefits which have come as a result of mankind's exploration of space. And, I would argue, using those benefits while decrying as evil the means by which they were obtained.

 

[truthpls]

You seem to ignore the value brought by communications satellites, weather satellites, mapping satellites, earth observation satellites tracking a vast array of variables that improve our understanding of climate, of crop production, etc.

No, we weigh it all in the balances. You might try to say war has brought a lot of good things as well. Tons of employment, newer technologies etc. Maybe you would say some big diseases also brought some good things, like a greater immunity among the survivors etc.
The focus of thread has been about the efforts in space has been the quest to evacuate earth in fear of some future catastrophe. I do not see that being a good thing for mankind. It is like a vanguard of people who do not trust in God! It is based on prophesy that opposes the bible. The end on earth is caused by God and there can be no escaping it for the people that rejected Him. The great cost of the Chicken Little Quest is also a factor. I suggested the treasure would be better spent helping people on earth. The satellites pollute the skies as was brought out early in the tread and the planned new ones will do so even more. Many of those are military satellites. So tell us, how would WW3 benefit mankind exactly? Would you say the better toothpaste tubes, and whatever gidgets and gadgets outweigh the coming wars and pollution? As for weather, I suspect some weather balloons or something might not involve untold trillions of dollars sucked into the void of space.

The expansion of our knowledge of the solar system and its moons, planets, asteroids, comets, solar wind, etc. I summarise only, but challenge what seems to be your belief that trillions have been wasted. Perhaps you meant something different.

The problem is that what passes for knowledge is actually fantasy. For example the foolish tall tales about where the moon came from and the solar system!

 

[truthpls]

--you're ignoring all of the everyday benefits which have come as a result of mankind's exploration of space. And, I would argue, using those benefits while decrying as evil the means by which they were obtained.

That was addressed in my last post. I mopped the floor with that argument

 

[Ophiolite]

You might try to say war has brought a lot of good things as well.

No. I would not try to say that.

Maybe you would say some big diseases also brought some good things

No. I wouldn't say that either.

So tell us, how would WW3 benefit mankind exactly?

I am mildly offended that you choose a cheap rhetorical device to imply that I am in favour of war. Nothing I said asserted or implied I was in favour of global warfare.

As for weather, I suspect some weather balloons or something might not involve untold trillions of dollars sucked into the void of space.

Your suspicion would, on inspection, turn out to be nonsense.

The problem is that what passes for knowledge is actually fantasy

Well, on the basis of our strongly differening world views and your multiple attempts to put words in my mouth I think it best I bid you a good day and farwell.

 

[truthpls]

No. I would not try to say that.

Me either. Nor would I say the expensive Chicken Little quest was weighing in heavy as good

No. I wouldn't say that either.

Good.

I am mildly offended that you choose a cheap rhetorical device to imply that I am in favour of war. Nothing I said asserted or implied I was in favour of global warfare.

The point was that you say some good comes from big expensive efforts of man, specifically the effort to flee earth. I pointed out that in other efforts of man is it not so hard to see that the bad outweighs the good.

Your suspicion would, on inspection, turn out to be nonsense.

Explain why trillions are needed to get the weather forecast wrong anyhow?

 

[Ophiolite]

The point was that you say some good comes from big expensive efforts of man, specifically the effort to flee earth. I pointed out that in other efforts of man is it not so hard to see that the bad outweighs the good.

No. I don't say that. Your posts are riddled with inaccuracies.

1. Trillions have not been spent to flee the Earth.
2. I have not commented on the primary topic of this thread, but on "issues arising".
3. A great deal of good comes from the application of advanced technology. If you really want me to write a 1,000 word essay outlining the benefits, with appropriate references, then fine. Let me know, but I expect you to treat it seriously. At present, by your own declarations, you are profoundly ignorant of these benefits. (Please understand my use of the word ignorant; we are all ignorant of most things.)
4. You have made many assertions. None of these are backed by other than faith based beliefs. That is unconvincing for me. You are correct that we do not live in a perfect world, but you are rather to free with the spray can that paints a graffiti like "bad" on many of humanity's actions.

Explain why trillions are needed to get the weather forecast wrong anyhow?

That is seriously uninformed. The quality of weather forecasting was surpsingly good in the 1960s. Today it is excellent. Perhaps if you took a course on the weather you would be better able to appreciate the subtleties of the forecasts and know where error bars are likely to be larger.
And the cost of weatehr satellites and other weather paraphanalia is not in the trillions, but billions. And you are completely ignoring the benefits delivered by it - largely, it seems, because you are wholly unaware of them. Do some reading up on these matters and I shall listen to your opinions more attentively.

 

[Ophiolite]

The point was that you say some good comes from big expensive efforts of man, specifically the effort to flee earth. I pointed out that in other efforts of man is it not so hard to see that the bad outweighs the good.

No. I don't say that. Your posts are riddled with inaccuracies.

1. Trillions have not been spent to flee the Earth.
2. I have not commented on the primary topic of this thread, but on "issues arising".
3. A great deal of good comes from the application of advanced technology. If you really want me to write a 1,000 word essay outlining the benefits, with appropriate references, then fine. Let me know, but I expect you to treat it seriously. At present, by your own declarations, you are profoundly ignorant of these benefits. (Please understand my use of the word ignorant; we are all ignorant of most things.)
4. You have made many assertions. None of these are backed by other than faith based beliefs. That is unconvincing for me. You are correct that we do not live in a perfect world, but you are rather to free with the spray can that paints a graffiti like "bad" on many of humanity's actions.

Explain why trillions are needed to get the weather forecast wrong anyhow?

That is seriously uninformed. The quality of weather forecasting was surpsingly good in the 1960s. Today it is excellent. Perhaps if you took a course on the weather you would be better able to appreciate the subtleties of the forecasts and know where error bars are likely to be larger.
And the cost of weatehr satellites and other weather paraphanalia is not in the trillions, but billions. And you are completely ignoring the benefits delivered by it - largely, it seems, because you are wholly unaware of them. Do some reading up on these matters and I shall listen to your opinions more attentively.

 

[truthpls]

No. I don't say that. Your posts are riddled with inaccuracies.

1. Trillions have not been spent to flee the Earth.

That depends on whether we consider all the money spent on going to space as part of that or not. Since Nasa is jumping on board with the Chicken Little vision (NASA backs Hawking's prediction of earth's end, urges urgent climate action) I think it is fair to assume the inspirational spirit has always been the same one behind all this. If you prefer to absolutely isolate and minimize the expenditures on fleeing to the moon or Mars etc, well, we would not yet use the trillions term.

1. I have not commented on the primary topic of this thread, but on "issues arising".

I see. Maybe it is time to start?

1. A great deal of good comes from the application of advanced technology. If you really want me to write a 1,000 word essay outlining the benefits, with appropriate references, then fine. Let me know, but I expect you to treat it seriously. At present, by your own declarations, you are profoundly ignorant of these benefits. (Please understand my use of the word ignorant; we are all ignorant of most things.)

Looking at a few items from Nasa's site about that I noticed this

"
Culture and Inspiration. Space exploration offers a unique and evolving perspective on
humanity's place in the Universe - "

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Benefits-Stemming-from-Space-Exploration-2013-TAGGED.pdf

Ha! Our place in the universe is God's pets! The planet that matters when all the rest of the universe fades away, and to which God Himself is moving! It is no benefit to have Nasa's opinion on the matter whatsoever, on the contrary!

"
preparedness for
protecting the Earth from catastrophic events such as some asteroid strikes"
"
Space exploration
also results in various intangible impacts due to the social and philosophical dimensions
that address the nature and meaning of human life"

-same site

I contend that almost any advances could be made without the going to space part.

1. You have made many assertions. None of these are backed by other than faith based beliefs.

Empty vague accusatory words

1. That is unconvincing for me. You are correct that we do not live in a perfect world, but you are rather to free with the spray can that paints a graffiti like "bad" on many of humanity's actions.

And I am correct in doing what is obvious.

That is seriously uninformed. The quality of weather forecasting was surpsingly good in the 1960s. Today it is excellent. Perhaps if you took a course on the weather you would be better able to appreciate the subtleties of the forecasts and know where error bars are likely to be larger.
And the cost of weatehr satellites and other weather paraphanalia is not in the trillions, but billions. And you are completely ignoring the benefits delivered by it - largely, it seems, because you are wholly unaware of them. Do some reading up on these matters and I shall listen to your opinions more attentively.

Weigh the military aspects of space (an intricate part of any modern war) with the increased weather tracking abilities. What weighs more? As pointed out, you cannot cherry pick the bits of 'good' in something without looking at the big picture.

 

[Ophiolite]

I see. Maybe it is time to start?

This was in reference to my remark that I had not yet addressed the primary topic of the thread. I do so now. The assertion in the OP was
"The bible tells us Jesus is returning to earth to rule. There is no escape. Wasting trillions trying to avoid the fate of man on earth is in my opinion a waste and not of God at all.
Thoughts?"

1. I do not believe in the Christian God and consequently do not expect Jesus to return to Earth to rule.
2. I do not view travelling to Mars and eventually colonising it to be about escape, but to be about furthering humanity's curiosity about the universe. (As an aside: I think Musk is a bit of a buffoon, but - until his incompetent DOGE excursion - was quite impressed by his ability to get things done.)
3. From my perspective the combination of intelligence and consciousness within humans creates a remarkable situation, possibly unique, in which a portion of the universe is able to contemplate the universe as a whole. That creates a responsibility upon each of us to contribute to and expand that self-contemplation. The research satellites, the planetary probes, the telescopic observations, the meticulous, arduous research of insect behaviour, of plant genetics, or primate culture and a ten thousand other specialities are all part of that effort. It is not money wasted, or misapplied, it is an investment in understanding and knowledge.
4. I understand that you hold a different perspective. I think you are mistaken, but I accept you have a right to that view and respect that. I do not respect your use of emotive phrases that disparage my position and regret that I have reacted by partially reciprocating such behaviour, for which I apologise.
5. Given this substantive difference in our positions, I doubt that anything productive can arise from continuing the conversation, but by all means seek to show I am mistaken in that.

 

[truthpls]

This was in reference to my remark that I had not yet addressed the primary topic of the thread. I do so now. The assertion in the OP was
"The bible tells us Jesus is returning to earth to rule. There is no escape. Wasting trillions trying to avoid the fate of man on earth is in my opinion a waste and not of God at all.
Thoughts?"

1. I do not believe in the Christian God and consequently do not expect Jesus to return to Earth to rule.

Thanks for the honesty

1. I do not view travelling to Mars and eventually colonising it to be about escape, but to be about furthering humanity's curiosity about the universe. (As an aside: I think Musk is a bit of a buffoon, but - until his incompetent DOGE excursion - was quite impressed by his ability to get things done.)

Funny, the pursuit of that 'curiosity' costs much more (in the US for example) than it would to absolutely end all homelessness.

"In 2024, global government expenditure for space programs hit a record of approximately 135 billion U.S. dollars. The United States Government spent around 79.7 billion U.S. dollars on its space programs in than year.."

Global governmental spending on space programs of leading countries 2024| Statista

In 2024, global government expenditure for space programs hit a record of approximately 135 billion U.S.

www.statista.com

"
This means the cost to house every homeless person in the United States using this estimate of the cost to provide shelter for federal inmates would be about $30 billion. This should be considered a high-end estimate due to the high costs of providing shelter in this way.

What if we just paid for the average cost of housing across the country? According to the Apartment List National Rent Report for January 2024, the nationwide median rent in January 2024 was $1,379. This means that paying for the rent for each of these 650,000 people experiencing homelessness would cost about $11 billion."

What would it cost to end homelessness in America? — Scioto Analysis

On Wednesday, I went to a luncheon hosted by the Columbus Metropolitan Club on the topic of homelessness. The panelist posed a question to one of the panelists: what would it cost to end homelessness in America?

www.sciotoanalysis.com

That means that you could END homelessness in the USA if the stats are right and still have about 49 billion dolllars left over. Now let's spend this on ENDING all hunger in the USA.
"Joel Berg, CEO of Hunger Free America, has calculated the cost of ending hunger in the US at $25 billion"

https://www.globalgiving.org/learn/how-much-would-it-cost-to-end-world-hunger/

So now we have eliminated all homelessness and all hunger in a country (USA) using the space budget and we still have about 24 billion left to play with!

One site I looked at puts the approximate cost of a new hospital at about 200 million dollars.

"the total cost to build a hospital in 2025 can fall anywhere between $87.97 million to over $202.63 million.."

How Much Does It Cost To Build a Hospital?: 2025 Guide

The total cost to build a hospital in 2025 can fall anywhere between $87.97 million to over $202.63 million. The U.S. average cost to build a hospital ranges between $439.85-$454.33 per square foot.

www.rsmeans.com

With 24 billion dollars then, we could build, say, over 100 high end hospitals!

Let's review. The funds spent on your 'curiosity' could end ALL hunger and ALL homelessness in the USA as well as build over 100 new high end hospitals! When I weigh that is the balances, I find it tilts heavily in one direction

1. From my perspective the combination of intelligence and consciousness within humans creates a remarkable situation, possibly unique, in which a portion of the universe is able to contemplate the universe as a whole.

God made us that way as well as made the universe. Right now, man is fallen, and sinful and dangerous and wicked. God limits mankind. Why? For example if God did not man would kill, yes kill all life on earth!

1. That creates a responsibility upon each of us to contribute to and expand that self-contemplation.

No. Our contemplation must be how to get out of this dreadful deadly sin state. There is only one Way.

1. The research satellites,

Name some major diseases that were eliminated by space research? I think we all know the military has plenty of research going on regarding space. Again, when we weigh it on the scale, it is one sided.

1. the planetary probes,

? How does a probe help the starving sick and homeless?

1. the telescopic observations,

Those have been misused and misinterpreted to oppose creation and God.

1. the meticulous, arduous research of insect behaviour,

Solomon used to study that as well. No space program was needed.

1. of plant genetics, or primate culture and a ten thousand other specialities are all part of that effort.

The genetic manipulation of food is not all good. In fact Europe and many places refuse to eat genetically modified food etc. I agree. (Trump, do you really wonder why many US products are not bought in other countries?)

1. It is not money wasted, or misapplied, it is an investment in understanding and knowledge.

I do not agree. Looking at the trillions spent or that will be spent, I consider it mostly wasted. Example

"

Paper: Humans to Mars Will Cost About “Half a Trillion Dollars”​

Paper: Humans to Mars Will Cost About "Half a Trillion Dollars" (NASA 2016) - New Space Economy

The paper was presented at the 46th International Conference on Environmental Systems and discusses the estimated costs of a human mission to Mars. According to the document, the cost of the first human mission to Mars could be around "half a trillion dollars". This estimate is consistent with...

newspaceeconomy.ca

Then we can add all the subsequent frequent flights to that. etc

1. I understand that you hold a different perspective. I think you are mistaken, but I accept you have a right to that view and respect that. I do not respect your use of emotive phrases that disparage my position and regret that I have reacted by partially reciprocating such behaviour, for which I apologise.

Thanks. I do tend to try to paint my side of the debate with a slightly larger than life gloss

 

[Ophiolite]

Thanks for the honesty

While, like most people, I am prone to lie on occassions, I have never knowingly done so any forum. I can't explain it. It is what it is.

Funny, the pursuit of that 'curiosity' costs much more (in the US for example) than it would to absolutely end all homelessness.

Thank you for accompanying your assertion with a substantial body of research and data. Very useful. I'm sure you are aware that curing homelessness involves much more than just building more homes, but it is certainly a good start and, as you said, there would still be money left over.
We agree that more should be done to reduce and eventually eliminate homelessness. What we disagree about is where the money is to come from.
You point to the space budget. I point - in US terms - to the cosmetics industry, with $50 billion a year catering to vanity and the pet industry at $152 billion a year, $65 billion of it on pet food. Now I grant you that pets can provide emotional support for many, can be educational for children, etc. but space research also offers benefits.

Beauty Industry Statistics 2025 (Cosmetic Market Size)

Uncover the latest beauty industry statistics. Explore trends in skincare, makeup, and haircare. Gain insights into consumer spending!

www.demandsage.com

US pet food, treat industry amasses $65 billion in sales

The APPA released its “2025 State of the Industry Report,” detailing record-high sales for the US pet industry, growth in cat ownership, and evolving consumer purchasing trends.

www.petfoodprocessing.net

God made us that way as well as made the universe. Right now, man is fallen, and sinful and dangerous and wicked. God limits mankind. Why? For example if God did not man would kill, yes kill all life on earth!

Of course. I know this is your position, but as we have already established, it is not mine. And may I say if God is limiting man's ability to kill all life on Earth it is not evident. We are probably wiping out species faster than we are recognising hitherto unidientified ones. Much of the research that you seem so negative about is targeted on countering this man-made extinction event.

No. Our contemplation must be how to get out of this dreadful deadly sin state. There is only one Way

And I favour increasing our understanding of the world we live in, learning to live more harmoniously with out neighbours (which means everyone), respecting and supporting all other life on the planet. Achieve that I suspect you would find suprsiingly little evidence of sin. It seems to me some of our goals are the same, we just use a different vocabulary.

Name some major diseases that were eliminated by space research? I think we all know the military has plenty of research going on regarding space. Again, when we weigh it on the scale, it is one sided

I had moved on to talking about all forms of research, not just space research. I may be mistaken, but you seem negative about a lot of scientific endeavours.

? How does a probe help the starving sick and homeless?

Again, I had moved on to other types of research, but - as an example - India is achieving significant improvements in crop yields through satellite observations. People rendered homeless by natural disasters anywhere on the planet can be aided in recovery form satellite images.

Those have been misused and misinterpreted to oppose creation and God

Would you provide your single best example of such misuse for discussion?

The genetic manipulation of food is not all good. In fact Europe and many places refuse to eat genetically modified food etc. I agree. (Trump, do you really wonder why many US products are not bought in other countries?

I was not speaking about the genetic manipulation of food, but our understanding of plant genetics which gives us the ability to enhance food value and yield by natural means. I am European, so I am well aware of the contrast between European and American regulations on food. (NB: When I say I am European I mean I am Scottish and English and British and, ultimately, African since that is the home continent for all of us.)

I do not agree. Looking at the trillions spent or that will be spent, I consider it mostly wasted. Example

I have never been a fan of NASA's ability to get things done economically. If you wish you could certainly fight tooth and nail to have your government abandon all their manned space flight efforts, but especially Mars exploration/settlement. From my perspective that won't be a problem, since the Chinese certainly, the Indians probably and the Europeans perhaps, will go ahead.
As the Apollo moon landing program cost about 20% of what the Vietnam war cost, and the war represented - on average - about 20% of defence spending over that period. Put another way, there are multiple things we could cut that would allow that house building program that we would both welcome.

 

[Desk trauma]

For example if God did not man would kill, yes kill all life on earth!

How do you imagine that happening?