"Flaunting it"?

[PreachersWife2004]

My point is very simple: things that YOU dont consider flaunting (wedding rings, holding hands, talking about a significant other) are things that the gay community is criticized for all the time and people say they are FLAUNTING the fact that they are gay. I'm highlighting the double standard we seem to have with regards to treatment of gays versus heterosexuals.

We criticize gays for the same behavior we dismiss in straight people.

Two gays making out on a park bench might be criticized more than two heterosexuals making out on a park bench, that I will give you.

But I've never heard gay people being accused of flaunting anything because they had on wedding bands...or holding hands, etc. I've heard them being accused of flaunting when they have their gay pride parades, yes, but not because they're holding hands. In a gay pride parade, that IS flaunting one's sexuality. Can you imagine the response if someone organized a "heterosexual pride parade"?

FOR ME PERSONALLY, the bottom line is this. If you don't want me treating you differently because you're a homosexual, stop announcing the fact that you're homosexual. Just be you. If being a homosexual is part of that, I can accept it, but I don't need to be reminded every second of the day, just like I'm sure people don't want to be reminded of my sexuality.

 

[ArgentBear]

Two gays making out on a park bench might be criticized more than two heterosexuals making out on a park bench, that I will give you.

But I've never heard gay people being accused of flaunting anything because they had on wedding bands...or holding hands, etc. I've heard them being accused of flaunting when they have their gay pride parades, yes, but not because they're holding hands. In a gay pride parade, that IS flaunting one's sexuality. Can you imagine the response if someone organized a "heterosexual pride parade"?

FOR ME PERSONALLY, the bottom line is this. If you don't want me treating you differently because you're a homosexual, stop announcing the fact that you're homosexual. Just be you. If being a homosexual is part of that, I can accept it, but I don't need to be reminded every second of the day, just like I'm sure people don't want to be reminded of my sexuality.

So you want gays and lesbians to just be themselves…but hide the fact that they are gay/lesbian so you wont have to acknowledge that they exist….yeah….nothing wrong with that

 

[Rebekka]

Two gays making out on a park bench might be criticized more than two heterosexuals making out on a park bench, that I will give you.

But I've never heard gay people being accused of flaunting anything because they had on wedding bands...or holding hands, etc. I've heard them being accused of flaunting when they have their gay pride parades, yes, but not because they're holding hands. In a gay pride parade, that IS flaunting one's sexuality. Can you imagine the response if someone organized a "heterosexual pride parade"?

FOR ME PERSONALLY, the bottom line is this. If you don't want me treating you differently because you're a homosexual, stop announcing the fact that you're homosexual. Just be you. If being a homosexual is part of that, I can accept it, but I don't need to be reminded every second of the day, just like I'm sure people don't want to be reminded of my sexuality.

Some people have a problem with two men holding hands and will make "ewww" remarks.

A wedding ring, or referring to someone as your husband, or talking about your kids (as most children have straight parents), is reminding others of your sexuality.

I'm sure gays would like it to not have to walk on eggshells all the time, lest they offend someone by "announcing" that they're gay by doing exactly the same things as straight people do, being obviously a couple or being obviously in love.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So you want gays and lesbians to just be themselves…but hide the fact that they are gay/lesbian so you wont have to acknowledge that they exist….yeah….nothing wrong with that

Nice try twisting my words. Do you see me running around here constantly telling everyone I'm heterosexual? It works the same in real life.

Some people have a problem with two men holding hands and will make "ewww" remarks.

I know people who don't like any PDAs and will say eww no matter what.

A wedding ring, or referring to someone as your husband, or talking about your kids (as most children have straight parents), is reminding others of your sexuality.

No, it's not. It reminds people that I'm married and that I have children.

I'm sure gays would like it to not have to walk on eggshells all the time, lest they offend someone by "announcing" that they're gay by doing exactly the same things as straight people do, being obviously a couple or being obviously in love.

You obviously didn't read any of my last posts and have chosen to cherry pick part of this post. You see, I don't consider those things to be announcing anything. I consider people harping on their sexuality to be flaunting it. I consider headlines such as "Gay man appointed czar" to be flaunting one's sexuality. We don't write "heterosexual man appointed czar", right?

We had a member once who started many threads out with "I'm gay. What do you think of that?" or "I'm gay. I'm voting for Obama" EVERYTHING was about him being gay. That is flaunting your sexuality.

You know what? I don't care that you're gay. But when I hear people crowing about how they just want the same treatment as heterosexuals I have a hard time believing it, because everything is about special treatment. Special rights, special crime distinguishers, etc. You want me to look at you as just a person, yet everything you do revolves around your sexuality.

(those are general yous, by the way)

A guy walking down the street in drag doesn't bother me. Two gay guys holding hands doesn't bother me. Two people kissing on a street corner, whether homosexuals or heterosexuals might bother me. But the bottom line is that I don't care about your sexuality.

I have several gay friends who work in human services departments. Every day they champion for gay rights as part of their job. And you know? I'd never know they were gay if they weren't my friends, because it's not something they trumpet everywhere, because they know they don't need to.

 

[Steezie]

But I've never heard gay people being accused of flaunting anything because they had on wedding bands...or holding hands, etc. I've heard them being accused of flaunting when they have their gay pride parades, yes, but not because they're holding hands. In a gay pride parade, that IS flaunting one's sexuality. Can you imagine the response if someone organized a "heterosexual pride parade"?

Talk to a gay person, they'll tell you all sorts of fun stuff.

FOR ME PERSONALLY, the bottom line is this. If you don't want me treating you differently because you're a homosexual, stop announcing the fact that you're homosexual. Just be you. If being a homosexual is part of that, I can accept it, but I don't need to be reminded every second of the day, just like I'm sure people don't want to be reminded of my sexuality.

Again, the definition of "announcing" it seems to be different for gays than it is for straights.

Nice try twisting my words. Do you see me running around here constantly telling everyone I'm heterosexual? It works the same in real life.

I have to say, it DOES sorta sound like you are ok with gays being gay, just not with you around.

No, it's not. It reminds people that I'm married and that I have children.

Which is a heterosexual thing 99 times out of 100 these days

I consider headlines such as "Gay man appointed czar" to be flaunting one's sexuality. We don't write "heterosexual man appointed czar", right?

Again, you need to recognize that that sort of headline isnt published by the person themselves. Often its the result of a news outlet that wants to cause a stir.

We had a member once who started many threads out with "I'm gay. What do you think of that?" or "I'm gay. I'm voting for Obama" EVERYTHING was about him being gay. That is flaunting your sexuality.

Yes it was

You know what? I don't care that you're gay. But when I hear people crowing about how they just want the same treatment as heterosexuals I have a hard time believing it, because everything is about special treatment. Special rights, special crime distinguishers, etc. You want me to look at you as just a person, yet everything you do revolves around your sexuality.

The same could be said of you. Take a look at your life and you see that it revolves around your sexuality. You were probably shaped somewhat by your early boyfriends and your husband now. Your SEC is reinforced by two incomes and your taxes are modified by your married status. You have friends through your husband and many of your social activities involve him. Your children have made a dramatic impact on your life which I need not explain.

So our lives really DO revolve around our sexuality, regardless of what it is

I have several gay friends who work in human services departments. Every day they champion for gay rights as part of their job. And you know? I'd never know they were gay if they weren't my friends, because it's not something they trumpet everywhere, because they know they don't need to.

Is it something you dismiss or accept BECAUSE they are your friends, or do they engage in behavior that you would consider flaunting if they were strangers? We tend to be a lot more accepting of what our friends do than of strangers.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Steezie, great post. Thanks.

Talk to a gay person, they'll tell you all sorts of fun stuff.

One of my best friends LOVES his parades. He tries to get me to come every year, just because he gets all decked out. I've seen pictures. It's a riot.

Again, the definition of "announcing" it seems to be different for gays than it is for straights.

I realize people are saying that gays shouldn't be holding hands in public and whatnot. To them, that is them announcing their sexuality. To me, it's not.

I have to say, it DOES sorta sound like you are ok with gays being gay, just not with you around.

But that goes for heterosexuals, too. Please don't make out in front of me.

In all seriousness, my gay friends know my stance on homosexuality. They respect it, even if they disagree with it. I've had more problems with my heterosexual friends being, well, not-gay I guess, than my gay friends being gay. And my friends are all quick to make fun of themselves regardless...thankfully there's not tension in our friendships because some of them are gay, or because some of them live with their girlfriends and aren't married, etc.

Which is a heterosexual thing 99 times out of 100 these days

True, but to say that I'm flaunting it when I talk about it is using the word out of context. Again, I'm not going up to a gay person, flashing my wedding bling and saying "nyah nyah".

Again, you need to recognize that that sort of headline isnt published by the person themselves. Often its the result of a news outlet that wants to cause a stir.

Right, I did mention that initially too. I realize it's not them per se doing it, but it's part of the perception that I'm talking about. I also maintained that I neither disagree nor agree with that perception.

Yes it was

He didn't last long as I recall.

The same could be said of you. Take a look at your life and you see that it revolves around your sexuality. You were probably shaped somewhat by your early boyfriends and your husband now. Your SEC is reinforced by two incomes and your taxes are modified by your married status. You have friends through your husband and many of your social activities involve him. Your children have made a dramatic impact on your life which I need not explain.

But I'm still not running around talking about how I'm so heterosexual and proud. Yes, many things are shaped by my marital status and my parental status. But it doesn't mean my life revolves around my sexuality.

So our lives really DO revolve around our sexuality, regardless of what it is

See above.

Is it something you dismiss or accept BECAUSE they are your friends, or do they engage in behavior that you would consider flaunting if they were strangers? We tend to be a lot more accepting of what our friends do than of strangers.

No, I do have gay friends who act gay and openly mock themselves for it. These guys who are fighting on the frontlines that I know, they've gotten far enough that they don't need to be seen as the gay guy. And that's what they want for all gays. It's like those billboards that were up for awhile talking about civil rights where how come it's always "he was an articulate black man" instead of "he was an articulate man". We don't need the adjective in there. People should just be people on their own merits, not the color of their skin, their gender or their sexuality.

 

[Polycarp1]

Nice try twisting my words. Do you see me running around here constantly telling everyone I'm heterosexual? It works the same in real life.

Yes, Beckie, we do. In every single post, you rub our nose in the fact that you have carnal knowledge of a WELS pastor. Look at your username.

That's the point. While your personal experience may not be that gay men or women get bashed, verbally or physically, by simply living openly as who they are (sharing an apartment with one's beloved, for example, or holding hands, or attending a MCC church or going to a gay club), in point of fact it does happen. I can link you to a thread on another board where instances of gay bashing that had happened to individuals or been personally known to them were solicited, with over 250 replies -- from an active membership of 2-3,000 people, most heterosexual.

I have been happily married to the same woman for 34 1/2 years now. But growing up, I was small, bookish, unathletic, and hence perceived as gay by the majority of my junior and senior high schoolmates. I used to be horribly angry with that, until I realized, only a decade ago, that God was using it to equip me with an understanding of what gay people go through, so that I can speak out in their behalf.

Your experience does not constitute everyone's. When you get to heaven, ask Matthew Shepard about it.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Yes, Beckie, we do. In every single post, you rub our nose in the fact that you have carnal knowledge of a WELS pastor. Look at your username.

Seriously???! Please tell me you're kidding here, because that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I'm flaunting my sexuality because of my USERNAME????

That's the point. While your personal experience may not be that gay men or women get bashed, verbally or physically, by simply living openly as who they are (sharing an apartment with one's beloved, for example, or holding hands, or attending a MCC church or going to a gay club), in point of fact it does happen. I can link you to a thread on another board where instances of gay bashing that had happened to individuals or been personally known to them were solicited, with over 250 replies -- from an active membership of 2-3,000 people, most heterosexual.

Um, I never said that my personal experience was that gay men and women don't get bashed. I've been with my friends when they got teased or mocked. You've missed the point if you think that's what I'm talking about.

I have been happily married to the same woman for 34 1/2 years now. But growing up, I was small, bookish, unathletic, and hence perceived as gay by the majority of my junior and senior high schoolmates. I used to be horribly angry with that, until I realized, only a decade ago, that God was using it to equip me with an understanding of what gay people go through, so that I can speak out in their behalf.

Nor are you the only person who had this experience. Maybe you should stop and think that others might have gone through similar experiences in high school, and that you're not the only person qualified to speak on their behalf. Most of my gay friends (and I have a lot, which probably surprises you, but then again, you don't know MY history either) happily speak for themselves.

Your experience does not constitute everyone's. When you get to heaven, ask Matthew Shepard about it.

As I pointed out before, you've missed the logic boat completely if you think my argument here is that gays don't get beat up or mocked.

 

[Chesterton]

One of my best friends LOVES his parades. He tries to get me to come every year, just because he gets all decked out. I've seen pictures. It's a riot.

A riot, huh? An intriguing metaphor.

 

[keith99]

Yes, Beckie, we do. In every single post, you rub our nose in the fact that you have carnal knowledge of a WELS pastor. Look at your username.

Might I take a shot at just about everyone and hopefully bring some things back into focus?

Technically Beckie has not said she is straight. It is assumed that her username is a reference to marriage to a man. It could be a woman. And that gets to a problem. Man/ woman is assumed for a marriage or for that matter a relationship.

In the eyes of homophobes if a gay uses a non-specific description then they are hiding it and being decietful. If they use a clear description, such as boyfriend then they are flaunting their sexuality. No matter what they do (short of ceasing to exist) they can not satisfy some people.

I think we all need to remember this kind of person exists and also to remamber that pointing out how things that we say here or elsewhere can be twisted by that kind of person does not imply that any of here are that kind of person, or even tolerate that kind of twisting.

 

[Polycarp1]

Seriously???! Please tell me you're kidding here, because that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I'm flaunting my sexuality because of my USERNAME????

Yes. You are "PreachersWife2004", right? That says explicitly that you are married, and presumably sleeping with, a preacher, and given your WELS affiliation, the preacher is a man. Therefore you're defining yourself as a heterosexual woman with every post. It's not ridiculous at all.

Now, since the overwhelming majority of people are heterosexual, that doesn't raise any eyebrows. But consider if a man signed up with the name of "JacksHusband2004" -- would he not be 'flaunting his gayness' by that username, in most people's estimation? I think most reasonable people would say he is -- and he's done nothing different from what you did.

That was my point -- not an attack on you personally (as I hope you realized), but the fact that what is for most of us a casual reference to our family is seen, when done by a gay person, as 'flaunting his/her sexuality.' I remember vividly a post by Beanieboy noting that a coworker who had a picture of her husband and children on her desk took the picture of his partner on his desk as 'rubbing her nose in the fact he was gay.'

Think it over. I'm fairly sure the last thing you intended in signing up with that username was a statement about your sex life. But for a lot of people, a gay person making reference to his or her partner automatically defaults to "He's talking about his sex life." Marriage is about a lot more than sex, as we both know.

Um, I never said that my personal experience was that gay men and women don't get bashed. I've been with my friends when they got teased or mocked. You've missed the point if you think that's what I'm talking about.

Nor are you the only person who had this experience. Maybe you should stop and think that others might have gone through similar experiences in high school, and that you're not the only person qualified to speak on their behalf. Most of my gay friends (and I have a lot, which probably surprises you, but then again, you don't know MY history either) happily speak for themselves.

As I pointed out before, you've missed the logic boat completely if you think my argument here is that gays don't get beat up or mocked.

No, I didn't think that was your point -- I simply used your post to make a point to a more general audience: that one's personal experience is by no means indicative of what's true of all. (My classic example is that the two people I knew IRL with full-blown AIDS were chaste -- never having had sex except with the (unchaste) spouse who gave them it. That's far from normal -- but it happens to be true for me.)

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Yes. You are "PreachersWife2004", right? That says explicitly that you are married, and presumably sleeping with, a preacher, and given your WELS affiliation, the preacher is a man. Therefore you're defining yourself as a heterosexual woman with every post. It's not ridiculous at all.

I'd say the only people looking my username as a statement of my sexuality are narrowminded people who can only view life through their own sexuality.

Now, since the overwhelming majority of people are heterosexual, that doesn't raise any eyebrows. But consider if a man signed up with the name of "JacksHusband2004" -- would he not be 'flaunting his gayness' by that username, in most people's estimation? I think most reasonable people would say he is -- and he's done nothing different from what you did.

My whole point has been and continues to be that I DON'T VIEW IT THAT WAY. I don't consider that flaunting one's sexuality. However, if said user's name was "JacksGayHusband2004" that would be different. That I consider flaunting, just as if I put "TheHeterosexualPreachersWife2004" as my username. That makes a POINT of my sexuality.

That was my point -- not an attack on you personally (as I hope you realized), but the fact that what is for most of us a casual reference to our family is seen, when done by a gay person, as 'flaunting his/her sexuality.' I remember vividly a post by Beanieboy noting that a coworker who had a picture of her husband and children on her desk took the picture of his partner on his desk as 'rubbing her nose in the fact he was gay.'

And as I've maintained, I disagree with the notion that it's flaunting. I can't speak for BeanieBoy's coworker. Some people are stupid and will take offense at anything.

That being said, any time someone is 'proud' of being gay, on a Christian site where a good number of members believe homosexuality to be a sin, you have to understand there's going to be some flak.

Think it over. I'm fairly sure the last thing you intended in signing up with that username was a statement about your sex life. But for a lot of people, a gay person making reference to his or her partner automatically defaults to "He's talking about his sex life." Marriage is about a lot more than sex, as we both know.

But apparently you believe I'm rubbing my nose in everyone's face that I have carnal knowledge of a pastor. So you're no better than the people who think a homosexual is flaunting their lifestyle based on the pictures on their desk or their username.

No, I didn't think that was your point -- I simply used your post to make a point to a more general audience: that one's personal experience is by no means indicative of what's true of all. (My classic example is that the two people I knew IRL with full-blown AIDS were chaste -- never having had sex except with the (unchaste) spouse who gave them it. That's far from normal -- but it happens to be true for me.)

Forgive me if I have a hard time with the backpedaling.

 

[OllieFranz]

Beckie--

In your first post in this thread, you wrote:

Here's my thoughts on the matter.

We have a gay czar, right? I can't remember which dept. he serves) When he was appointed, headlines everywhere were "GAY MAN APPOINTED CZAR". For other appointments we didn't see "NON-GAY MAN APPOINTED..." or "HETEROSEXUAL MAN..."

It seems that for gay people, their sexuality must be attached to everything they do. And this isn't on them...it's on anyone who feels they have to attach it. We shouldn't have headlines that talk about one's sexuality when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

That's what I think of in terms of flaunting. I don't think that gays flaunt their physical sexuality any more than heterosexuals do.

This is a well thought out position. Not my position, exactly, but one I can respect and even agree with, as far as it goes.

Where things started going sour was in a later post:

That makes no sense whatsoever. You're basically saying that those of us who are married use those things to basically say "nyah nyah we're legally married and you're not" when that's not the case at all. I don't flaunt my marriage, but nor do I hide it.

I certainly hope that supporters of gay marriage don't have this as one of their talking points. I'm not flaunting anything by wearing my wedding ring. It's merely one more symbol that I'm married.

Again, a position that I can respect and agree with, but not one that every conservative takes. To many of them it is exactly those little, everyday "reminders" that the partner a man (whom they happen to know to be gay) goes home to each night is another man which they call "flaunting" their sexuality.

Gays have been criticized for "getting in [my] face" with their orientation for these little things. Some of the posters have used these kinds of little things that are clear about your life from your posts, and how you present yourself (username, wedding ring, etc) here on the forum to illustrate those kinds of criticisms they face every day.

That you got defensive is only natural. They were getting personal, and seemed to be bordering on insult. But getting defensive blinded you to their point. When it is directed at a gay person, it is just as personal, and it is not just bordering on insult, it is intended to be insulting.

Your response seemed to indicate that you believe that it is only a few ignorant people who do this, and they can be ignored. That most people agree with you. It is their experience, however that among conservatives it is a more common attitude than yours, and it bothers them that you can dismiss it so lightly.

I believe a careful reading of the posts will indicate that no one has accused you either of taking that attitude toward gays, or of actually "flaunting" your orientation, as opposed to doing the same ordinary things everyone does, but for which gays are accused of "flaunting."

"If the shoe doesn't fit .... "

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So that I'm totally clear: my thoughts here were my thoughts. They were not meant to construe how I believe everyone else acts or how everyone else should act.

That said, I've not seen this huge outpouring of people accusing the gay members here at CF or in real life of flaunting their homosexuality for things like usernames and pictures. I've seen bits and pieces here and there of it happening, to be sure. But not on some widescale range.

I've never said that it doesn't happen, either. I think people here who know my stance on homosexuality cannot fathom that I don't march in lock-step with how some Christians view homosexuality. I view it as a sin, but I'm not here to condemn or mock homosexuals. I honestly believe that some people cannot separate that - they cannot separate that I view something as sinful yet I'm not sitting here making fun of those people.

 

[ArgentBear]

Nice try twisting my words. Do you see me running around here constantly telling everyone I'm heterosexual? It works the same in real life.

The wedding rings above your name on these forums flaunt your sexuality
What you have said is that actions you happily engage in should eb off limits to same gendered couples because you don’t want to be offended….but you still want them to be themselves…only hidden

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The wedding rings above your name on these forums flaunt your sexuality
What you have said is that actions you happily engage in should eb off limits to same gendered couples because you don’t want to be offended….but you still want them to be themselves…only hidden

No. That is not what I've said at all.

 

[Belk]

So that I'm totally clear: my thoughts here were my thoughts. They were not meant to construe how I believe everyone else acts or how everyone else should act.

That said, I've not seen this huge outpouring of people accusing the gay members here at CF or in real life of flaunting their homosexuality for things like usernames and pictures. I've seen bits and pieces here and there of it happening, to be sure. But not on some widescale range.

I've never said that it doesn't happen, either. I think people here who know my stance on homosexuality cannot fathom that I don't march in lock-step with how some Christians view homosexuality. I view it as a sin, but I'm not here to condemn or mock homosexuals. I honestly believe that some people cannot separate that - they cannot separate that I view something as sinful yet I'm not sitting here making fun of those people.

So when you see another conservative poster accusing homosexuals of flaunting what do you think they mean? What comes to your mind as flaunting?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So when you see another conservative poster accusing homosexuals of flaunting what do you think they mean? What comes to your mind as flaunting?

I ask them what they mean. I don't assume. And I've already posted numerous times here what flaunting means to ME.

 

[DaisyDay]

Yeah, like the rainbow isn't a dead giveaway?

Red, white and blue isn't a rainbow.

 

[DaisyDay]

Funny thing, in a lot of Muslim countries, young men routine hold hands with each other - but it means friendship, nothing more. They are NOT allowed to hold hands with girls.

I remember hearing about an Afghani woman getting beaten for flaunting her sexuality - because she was wearing "flashy" white socks.

So much is in the eye of the beholder.

That being said, I think those who make out should do it in private, not public.