Flat or round earth -The final experiment.

[Apple Sky]

What do you want people to turn a blind eye to; your misunderstanding of Scripture, unscientific posts or the fact that you cite Dean Odel as an authority and treat YouTube as some kind of theological resource?
We don't do that because we care about you and the things you are saying. If we didn't, we'd be like the other few thousand people on these forums, leave you to your own conspiracies and get on with our lives.

Thank you for your kind words
You may think that I'm ignoring you but I'm not, I'm reading every word you post & taking it all in.

 

[prodromos]

Bars & doors are a metaphor.

"Circle of the earth" is no different.

 

[Strong in Him]

Thank you for your kind words
You may think that I'm ignoring you but I'm not, I'm reading every word you post & taking it all in.

You're welcome.
No, I didn't think you were ignoring me; it's fine.

I'm sorry if I have maybe seemed a bit harsh in my answers at times, but I do feel concerned - as well as exasperated.
Maybe you don't know any non-Christians or get into debates with them. But if you did and if they happened to be scientific, honestly, they'd run rings around you - and then be left with the impression that Christians don't know what they are talking about.

I know you find science difficult and tedious, but please try to check out some of the things that people are saying. You should have a more solid basis for your belief than "water can't bend on a globe" and "YouTube says so".

But at the end of the day, it's your life and your belief.

 

[Apple Sky]

"Circle of the earth" is no different.

Well according to you guys most verses in the Bible are either metaphors or written for the Mesopotamian's, I'm beginning to wonder here, what about the talking donkey, what is this ? HELP

 

[Phil G]

Well according to you guys most verses in the Bible are either metaphors or written for the Mesopotamian's, I'm beginning to wonder here, what about the talking donkey, what is this ? HELP

This thread is about flat or round earth and the final experiment. If there is 24 hour sun in Antarctica in December, then the earth is essentially shown to be a globe as such a phenomenon cannot be explained if the earth is flat. Then all the verses that flat earthers use to try to prove a flat earth are shown not to be taken literally.

But we already know the earth is a globe by eye witness testimony from people who have seen the globe shape and those people are increasing in number as the years go by.

There comes a time when reality is to be faced.

 

[Apple Sky]

There comes a time when reality is to be faced.

I totally agree.

 

[Phil G]

I totally agree.

Yes but you’re not agreeing with the facts I said before that statement. In other words you’re taking my statement out of context which is not a nice thing to do.

 

[Strong in Him]

Well according to you guys most verses in the Bible are either metaphors or written for the Mesopotamian's, I'm beginning to wonder here, what about the talking donkey, what is this ? HELP

I don't think anyone has said MOST verses are metaphors.

There are several types of writing in the Bible: history, prose, poetry, parables, prophesy, apocalyptic writing, proverbs etc. We need to read carefully, and study, to determine the style of writing, and also the context.
So God creating the universe is a fact (for Christians, anyway). HOW he did it is unknown and a lot of the writing is poetic. Does the sea literally have doors and gates, for example, Job 38:8-10? No. In verse 8 it is both locked behind a door and bursting from a womb. In verse 9 it is wrapped up in the clouds, in verse 11 its waves are "proud". None of those things are literal.

Regarding Balaam's donkey: Balaam was a historical figure; Moab, Jericho, Midian and Egypt were real places. I see no reason to doubt that the story is true. God performs miracles and also uses things to get his people's attention - like Moses and the burning bush, Pharaoh and the plagues of Egypt or the worm in Jonah 4. In my view, the One who made the animals can certainly speak through them; literally, or otherwise.

 

[Apple Sky]

I don't think anyone has said MOST verses are metaphors.

There are several types of writing in the Bible: history, prose, poetry, parables, prophesy, apocalyptic writing, proverbs etc. We need to read carefully, and study, to determine the style of writing, and also the context.
So God creating the universe is a fact (for Christians, anyway). HOW he did it is unknown and a lot of the writing is poetic. Does the sea literally have doors and gates, for example, Job 38:8-10? No. In verse 8 it is both locked behind a door and bursting from a womb. In verse 9 it is wrapped up in the clouds, in verse 11 its waves are "proud". None of those things are literal.

Regarding Balaam's donkey: Balaam was a historical figure; Moab, Jericho, Midian and Egypt were real places. I see no reason to doubt that the story is true. God performs miracles and also uses things to get his people's attention - like Moses and the burning bush, Pharaoh and the plagues of Egypt or the worm in Jonah 4. In my view, the One who made the animals can certainly speak through them; literally, or otherwise.

What about verse Isaiah 40:22 ?

 

[Phil G]

What about verse Isaiah 40:22 ?

If you read Isaiah 40 you can see it has a lot of metaphor. For instance Isaiah 40:6-7 KJV says:

"6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass."

Does this mean that people are grass?

It's obvious that Isaiah is using metaphor to explain a point, the frailty of man. Likewise Isaiah 40:22 Isaiah is using metaphor to make a point, the sovereignty of God over His creation. Everything in that verse is metaphor. God does not literally sit on the earth even though the verse clearly and literally says He does.

That's why Bible study and exegesis is not about picking out a verse that seems to suit a particular view of cosmology. As @Strong in Him has indicated, it's about grappling with the context and the writing styles of the person that wrote it.

 

[Apple Sky]

Yes but you’re not agreeing with the facts I said before that statement. In other words you’re taking my statement out of context which is not a nice thing to do.

No I'm not, I'm agreeing to face reality.

a time to search and a time to count as lost, Ecclesiastes 3:6

a time to start looking and a time to stop looking Ecclesiates 3:6

 

[Apple Sky]

God does not literally sit on the earth

No, God sits above it,

 

[Phil G]

No I'm not, I'm agreeing to face reality.

a time to search and a time to count as lost, Ecclesiastes 3:6

a time to start looking and a time to stop looking Ecclesiates 3:6

Reality is all around us. God has given us the ability and wisdom to investigate it as it is His creation. Psalm 111:2 KJV says:

"2 The works of the Lord are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein."

It is not sin to investigate reality in the physical world through scientific study. It is the study of God's creation. But to try to use Scripture to contradict reality is another thing.

Scientific theories are possibilities based on current known facts. Some theories are wrong and will be proved wrong. But the globe earth is not a theory. It is a proven fact. To deny it is to deny God's creation as He created it. Scriptures have to be understood in their proper context. And if someone is interpreting a verse to contradict what is a proven fact, then they bring God into disrepute.

 

[Phil G]

No, God sits above it,

You are right, it is above. But He can't be literally sitting. God is spirit and not physical. So even though Isaiah says He is literally sitting, He is not.

 

[Apple Sky]

You are right, it is above. But He can't be literally sitting. God is spirit and not physical.

Jesus is God, therefore God must have known what Isiah was saying.

 

[Phil G]

Jesus is God, therefore God must have known what Isiah was saying.

Yes He did and does. The fact that Jesus said that God is spirit puts Isaiah 40:22 into the context of metaphor.

 

[Strong in Him]

What about verse Isaiah 40:22 ?

Well, rather than me tell you what to believe; what do you think?
Look at the verses before this:

Surely the nations are like a drop in a bucket;
they are regarded as dust on the scales;

Is this literal? Are the nations a drop (a drop of what?) Or dust?
The author is comparing them to something; the word "like" is a simile.

17 Before him all the nations are as nothing;
they are regarded by him as worthless
and less than nothing.

ARE the nations of the world nothing? Christians would surely say that they were all created by God, that he died for all in them and they are of great worth.
But compared with God's might and great power; they are nothing.

18 With whom, then, will you compare God?
To what image will you liken him?

I would say that is a rhetorical question; how can the mighty, powerful Creator of the universe be compared to anything man-made?
Besides, the Jews knew they were forbidden from making idols of anything.

21 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Compared with an idol, which is made by a human hand; God is all-powerful. Even if an idol is overlaid with silver and gold, it cannot compare with God. He founded, and created, the earth; God is so majestic, awesome and powerful that all the nations appear to be like specks of dust and their people like grasshoppers.
Is that literal? Are you a grasshopper and do you live inside a speck of dust? Look at verse 31 of that chapter; do you literally have wings like an eagle?
Look at other verses in Scripture; we are God's sheep, Psalm 23:1, Psalm 100:3. We are branches, John 15:5. So which is it; are we grasshoppers, sheep or branches on a tree? Or are we human beings, made in God's image, Genesis 1:26, known by God before we were born and "fearfully and wonderfully made", Psalm 139?

The chapter is one of comfort and hope, after the judgement, punishment and threats of exile in the first 39 chapters of Isaiah.
It is talking about God's power, majesty and ability compared with idols, who can do nothing. Even the other nations, who may have been threatening war and looked powerful or invincible, are nothing before God.
It is not a chapter about creation - and it certainly doesn't teach that the earth is a circle.

 

[Apple Sky]

. But the globe earth is not a theory. It is a proven fact.

No it's not, no one has proved that the earth is globe, they just can't. If we were all allowed to travel up to space then we could find out for ourselves. But I can't see this happening any time soon, NASA has too much to lose.

 

[Phil G]

No it's not, no one has proved that the earth is globe, they just can't. If we were all allowed to travel up to space then we could find out for ourselves. But I can't see this happening any time soon, NASA has too much to lose.

Again you are fixated on NASA. The world has moved beyond NASA. It is in severe competition with other privately owned companies.

High altitude plane pilots see the curvature of the globe. Space tourism is becoming popular as something you can do if you have the money or can get sponsorship.

Satellite images are not fake either because there are hundreds of thousands of people employed in their manufacture and operation. All these people would have to be lying if there were no such things as satellites.

And that’s not to mention the proof of the equatorial telescope mount, the design of which could not work on a flat earth, because that design is 100% dependant on the earth being a globe for it be able to do what it does.

 

[Strong in Him]

No it's not, no one has proved that the earth is globe, they just can't. If we were all allowed to travel up to space then we could find out for ourselves.

But you wouldn't believe it anyway.

But I can't see this happening any time soon, NASA has too much to lose.

Nonsense.
Give them enough money, prove you are fit enough and say it's in the name of scientific research.
I.e, you'd rather give them heaps of cash to see for yourself, than take the word of astronauts and scientists.