Flat or round earth -The final experiment.

[Apple Sky]

I'm talking first about Genesis 1, which is the chapter you brought up. My position is and always has been that Scripture neither refers to a flat stationary earth nor a rotating globe.

So I repeat, tell me what Genesis 1 reveals about a flat stationary earth.

You know that Genesis 1 doesn't reveal a flat stationary earth.

 

[Phil G]

You know that Genesis 1 doesn't reveal a flat stationary earth.

But why then did you refer to it when I was referring to the flat stationary earth? You said "I cannot read Genesis 1 in any other way other than what it reveals."

The list of 200+ "flat earth" Bible verses which you have posted before actually cites Genesis 1:1-19 first. It does so under the heading "Earth created before the sun". Well the earth doesn't have to be flat and stationary to have been created before the sun. God is creator and He can create the universe in any order He wanted, whether the earth is flat and stationary or a rotating globe.

So these verses are not "flat earth" verses, but creation order verses. That's what they reveal, creation order and not earth shape.

 

[Apple Sky]

But why then did you refer to it when I was referring to the flat stationary earth?

Dunno, I suppose it's that Genesis 1 has always been my anchor at supporting a flat stationary earth which doesn't orbit the sun.

 

[Phil G]

Dunno, I suppose it's that Genesis 1 has always been my anchor at supporting a flat stationary earth which doesn't orbit the sun.

But Genesis 1 doesn't say any such thing, all it says about the earth is that it was created before the sun. What is to stop God from causing it to orbit the sun after the sun was created? The Scripture is silent on that. There is no verse that says that after the sun was created, the earth does not orbit it and that the earth is flat and stationary.

Genesis 1 is a truly amazing chapter speaking of God's almighty power revealed in His creation. But nowhere does it state or imply that the earth is flat and stationary and does not orbit the sun.

So how can that be your anchor for a flat stationary earth not orbiting the sun? There is nothing there to use as an anchor.

 

[trophy33]

But Genesis 1 doesn't say any such thing, all it says about the earth is that it was created before the sun. What is to stop God from causing it to orbit the sun after the sun was created? The Scripture is silent on that. There is no verse that says that after the sun was created, the earth does not orbit it and that the earth is flat and stationary.

Genesis 1 is a truly amazing chapter speaking of God's almighty power revealed in His creation. But nowhere does it state or imply that the earth is flat and stationary and does not orbit the sun.

So how can that be your anchor for a flat stationary earth not orbiting the sun? There is nothing there to use as an anchor.

Genesis begins with primeval waters, eternal ocean. From the waters, God creates dry land mass. Then He creates firmament to separate the cosmic ocean into two parts. Later, God places the Sun, the Moon and the stars into the firmament.

The creation story reflects the ancient Mesopotamian view of the world:

404 - University of Idaho

www.webpages.uidaho.edu

 

[Phil G]

Genesis begins with primeval waters, eternal ocean. From the waters, God creates dry land mass. Then He creates firmament to separate the cosmic ocean into two parts. Later, God places the Sun, the Moon and the stars to the firmament.

The creation story reflects the ancient Mesopotamian view of the world:

404 - University of Idaho

www.webpages.uidaho.edu

My point is that there is no mention of a flat stationary earth not orbiting the sun. It's not in Genesis 1.

 

[trophy33]

My point is that there is no mention of a flat stationary earth not orbiting the sun. It's not in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1 describes the flat earth cosmology with the Sun, the Moon and stars being only "lights" in the firmament. And the cosmic ocean above and around it.

I.e. it describes a world that does not orbit the Sun. Here is the Cambridge dictionary about Genesis 1:

Genesis 1 Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

 

[Phil G]

Genesis 1 describes the flat earth cosmology with the Sun, the Moon and stars being only "lights" in the firmament. And the cosmic ocean above and around it.

I.e. it describes a world that does not orbit the sun.

No it doesn't. And again this is a topic for a different thread. You are taking what Scripture says, comparing it to an ancient Mesopotamian view, and then conflating the two. That is essentially adding to Scripture.

I am dealing with what is specifically said in Scripture and what is not.

 

[trophy33]

No it doesn't. And again this is a topic for a different thread. You are taking what Scripture says, comparing it to an ancient Mesopotamian view, and then conflating the two. That is essentially adding to Scripture.

I am dealing with what is specifically said in Scripture and what is not.

You are asking where does Genesis describe the flat earth and I am answering. Genesis specifically, literally describes the creation of the flat earth, geocentric universe, with firmament, primeval ocean etc.

 

[Phil G]

You are asking where does the Genesis describes the flat earth and I am answering. Genesis specifically, literally describes the creation of the flat earth, geocentric universe, with firmament etc.

No it doesn't. There is no mention of a flat stationary earth not orbiting the sun in Genesis 1. Debating whether it merges with Mesopotamian views is a different topic. People can have different views on that and you obviously stick with a view that works best for you. But it doesn't work for anyone who believes in the inerrancy of Scripture to do that.

To people like me to suggest Scripture was written according to ancient mythological views and not from God's own truth would be denying the truthfulness of God. Using terminologies that were understood at the time is a different view and is the view I take.

 

[trophy33]

No it doesn't. There is no mention of a flat stationary earth not orbiting the sun in Genesis 1. Debating whether it merges with Mesopotamian views is a different topic. People can have different views on that and you obviously stick with a view that works best for you. But it doesn't work for anyone who believes in the inerrancy of Scripture to do that.

To people like me to suggest Scripture was written according to ancient mythological views and not from God's own truth would be denying the truthfulness of God. Using terminologies that were understood at the time is a different view and is the view I take.

Genesis does not literally say "the Earth is not a globe and does not orbit the Sun", indeed. Such idea was so foreign for them they would never think of it. It was discovered in Europe, not in Mesopotamia.

But it describes such creation that is incompatible with our modern Solar System model - primeval ocean, firmament, lights in the firmament, waters above firmament etc. Its not "God's own truth", of course, such view of the biblical inspiration does not work.

 

[southern celt]

Genesis does not literally say "the Earth is not a globe and does not orbit the Sun", indeed. Such idea was so foreign for them they would never think of it. It was discovered in Europe, not in Mesopotamia.

But it describes such creation that is incompatible with our modern Solar System model - primeval ocean, firmament, lights in the firmament, waters above firmament etc. Its not "God's own truth", of course, such view of the biblical inspiration does noThe earth is flat and in a dome called a

 

[Phil G]

Genesis does not literally say "the Earth is not a globe and does not orbit the Sun", indeed. Such idea was so foreign to them they would never think of it.

But it describes such creation that is incompatible with our modern Solar System model - primeval ocean, firmament, lights in the firmament, waters above firmament etc. Its not "God's own truth", of course, such view of the biblical inspiration does not work.

I beg to differ. Taking one example of 'firmament'. The meaning of this word in the original Hebrew is very much debated. Some Bible versions use the word 'expanse' instead, indicating a difficulty with the translation. It's the reason why I won't accept the view that Scripture indicates a solid dome. It cannot be pinned down to such a meaning.

 

[southern celt]

If the earth is spherical and flying thru space then why does God say the earth cannot be moved and mounted on pillars no less than 3 times in the Bible. Who do u believe. Atheist scientists or the God of the Bible? God says the earth , the sun, the moon, and the stars are in a dome Covering the earth called an expanse. God said in Joshua he stopped the sun from moving. So tell Christian where is God lying?

 

[trophy33]

I beg to differ. Taking one example of 'firmament'. The meaning of this word in the original Hebrew is very much debated. Some Bible versions use the word 'expanse' instead, indicating a difficulty with the translation. It's the reason why I won't accept the view that Scripture indicates a solid dome. It cannot be pinned down to such a meaning.

Instead of focusing on one word, read the whole creation story. The context says it all. It describes common Mesopotamian cosmology.

 

[trophy33]

If the earth is spherical and flying thru space then why does God say the earth cannot be moved and mounted on pillars no less than 3 times in the Bible. Who do u believe. Atheist scientists or the God of the Bible? God says the earth , the sun, the moon, and the stars are in a dome Covering the earth called an expanse. God said in Joshua he stopped the sun from moving. So tell Christian where is God lying?

Bible was not written by God.

 

[Phil G]

Instead of focusing on one word, read the whole creation story. The context says it all.

Exactly, which is the difficulty with the translation, because the context is not clear as to what it actually means.

 

[trophy33]

Exactly, which is the difficulty with the translation, because the context is not clear as to what it actually means.

Its quite clear. The context is the Mesopotamian cosmology. Again - primeval ocean, dry land from waters, waters above the firmament, under the firmament. Stars, the Sun, the Moon in the firmament.

This is not a description of the Solar System. Its also worth to mention the broader Genesis context - like the tower of Babel "reaching heavens" or Jacob seeing the ladders to heaven. It all reflects the same thing - the idea that God's heaven is above the sky/firmament.

 

[Phil G]

Its quite clear. The context is the Mesopotamian cosmology. Again - primeval ocean, dry land from waters, waters above the firmament, under the firmament. Stars, the Sun, the Moon in the firmament.

This is not a description of the Solar System.

No it's not quite clear. You are comparing Scripture to Mesopotamian cosmology in order to explain Scripture. There is no need to do that.

And no, it's not a description of the Solar system because Scripture doesn't describe it to any great extent beyond what people needed to know.

 

[southern celt]

Instead of focusing on one word, read the whole creation story. The context says it all. It describes common Mesopotamian cosmology.

Guess I didn’t read my whole by post. I wasn’t focusing on one word. First of all God says clearly the earth sun moon and dress are in the firmament. But you say they are not. Then I said God said no less than three times the earth cannot be moved and is mounted on pillars but I guess u say it’s not. Then God says he stopped the sun from moving are u saying he did not say that. At least read the scriptures they say this then tell me how God got it wrong.