Flat or round earth -The final experiment.

Apple Sky said:

You mean the Star Trek era

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Which apparently began 2000+ years ago.

The Liturgist said:

False. We have ample evidence the Earth is moving, because we can track its motion relative to other celestial objects.

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Key word: relative. You are actually tracking the motion of celestial objects relative to a stationary earth.

The Liturgist said:

And the fact people are still arguing for a flat Earth despite the fact that @prodromos and I have proven it false via the existence of flights with travel times as predicted by a globular Earth model in the Southern Hemisphere is very strange. We were told by Flat Earthers for the entire pandemic era that those flights could not exist and the fact that at the time they did not exist was proof positive the world was round. Now that such flights have been restored, due to the return of demand for global travel, well, I think it not unreasonable that the Flat Earth community accept that they have been debunked.

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We don't have ready access to all the data about those flights, the exact route over ocean, the exact speeds and wind variables for the entire trip.

It's a point that deserves attention, but far from anything conclusive. If we're really trying to get to the truth of the matter, that is.

Globe believers said much the same thing about the southern ocean boat races, and upon further inspection those also turned out to be far from anything conclusive in regards to their speeds and routes taken, (and at least one of those racers is a confirmed flat earth believer.)

The Liturgist said:

But instead a religious dimension is added, with people actually claiming that not believing in a Flat Earth is a threat to one’s Christian soteriology.

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If that is happening, then it's going both ways. I've heard plenty of charges approaching blasphemy for rejecting the "science" of globe/heliocentric cosmology.

For the record, I've not heard a single flat earth Christian say or imply that you have to believe in flat earth to go to heaven.

trophy33 said:

No flat earther is able to propose a complete, working flat earth model.

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Well this guy doesn't seem to have a problem, in fact he even goes one step further.

Enjoy

Apple Sky said:

Well this guy doesn't seem to have a problem, in fact he even goes one step further.

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He does not have a problem, because his ideas do not get challenged. You also do not have any problem until we debunk your nonsensical claims.

Science's reality is not based on observation
To science believers because of science and not personal observation, when they see this moon. They are believing they are seeing a moon 230,00+ miles away from the earth, out in space. But in actual observed reality the moon has been place in the sky right above our head.


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trophy33 said:

He does not have a problem, because his ideas do not get challenged. You also do not have any problem until we debunk your nonsensical claims.

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Oh well, shrug........

Apple Sky said:

Oh well, shrug........

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Yes, shrug... you cannot explain eclipses, sunsets, gravity, the movement of planets, asteroids, plane routes, race around Antarctica, GPS, satellite TV... well you cannot explain much, really.

Jipsah said:

I think they'd be awe struck by the marvelous works of God.

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Why aren't modern people awestruck then?

Why do so many people today point to modern cosmology and give all the glory to the forces of nature and 'Science' ?

Modern cosmology = Epicureanism = something exploded, some 'splodey stuff got lucky, but there is nothing special about it. Earth is just another speck of mass hurdling through the void from an explosion. None of this inspires a reverence for the God of the Bible, which is why so many atheists and agnostics embrace modern cosmology so passionately, because exploding things don't look like they were designed.

Jipsah said:

Except that there are tons of evidence that the earth is moving. You just can't bring yourself to believe it.

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Actually, because of "Relativity", there isn't evidence the earth is moving.. Even other globe believers on this thread will admit that. Einstein even admitted it, as well as other prominent physicists.

Jipsah said:

And if pigs had wings... All I see here is peple venomously denying that God designed the cosmos as He did instead of how you reckon He ought to have done it. Once again, if God had consulted you it would all have been so much better. Right.

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It's not how I reckon it... it's what the words actually say in scripture. You're the one saying that the words in scripture don't account for anything in actual reality and that it's all symbolism.

Can God be allowed to create a cosmos in the way he says or is that off limits for him?

Jipsah said:

Or that the earth did, since the difference wouldn't have been obvious to the terrestrial observer. We still speak as though the sun was moving aound the earth even though we know better. because that's the way it looks.

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Yep, it looks like the sun is moving. What's so terrible about believing that the sun is as it appears to be?

Jipsah said:

Are you sure you're willing to allow Him that much latitude? You do seem very keen to say how God can't have done thus and so, evn though it's obvious to most serious observers that He did in fact do it that way.

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I just believe he did it the way he said he did it, or how it is written in the Bible.

Jipsah said:

Or what they call a Biblical Cosmology. All it takes is a little creative exegesis, wholesale eisegesis, and a stubborn refusal to lok up and see what's actually happening. Typical culty hive-think.

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You just said we look up and see the sun moving. That is what's actually happening. It's not culty to make observations.

Jipsah said:

Embracing a lie is never something to be celebrated.

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I thought one's cosmological beliefs didn't matter, as long as they are surrendering to Christ? Do you disagree?

Is there something sacred about the belief in a globe/heliocentric earth?

trophy33 said:

Yes, shrug... you cannot explain eclipses, sunsets, gravity, the movement of planets, asteroids, plane routes, race around Antarctica... well you cannot explain much, really.

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And what do you explain ? Zilch.

trophy33 said:

I mean the reality we live in and observe. No flat earther is able to propose a complete, working flat earth model.

Because its logically impossible to reconcile it with our reality.

They (including you) have just some random single claims about this or that, but its not possible to compose those claims into a consistent model.

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The "random single claims" are literally people trying to explain to you how observations fit into the model of a flat earth.

You ignore the explanations and then complain that nobody will give you a model.

lifepsyop said:

The "random single claims" are literally people trying to explain to you how observations fit into the model of a flat earth.

You ignore the explanations and then complain that nobody will give you a model.

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I already said - random single claims. That is what you have been giving. But without giving us a working model, as a whole, its worthless.

lifepsyop said:

Key word: relative. You are actually tracking the motion of celestial objects relative to a stationary earth.

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Well, no, because these celestial objects have motion relative to each other and the Earth moves with some of them, which is how Copernicus determined that Geocentrism is an error.

lifepsyop said:

We don't have ready access to all the data about those flights, the exact route over ocean, the exact speeds and wind variables for the entire trip.

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Yes, you do, via ADS-B, but you also don’t need it, since the factors you mention cause the trips to be longer rather than shorter than would otherwise be the case, and the whole point here is that these aircraft are traveling these sectors at a time which according to Flat Earth is impossibly fast. And by impossibly fast, I mean, if the Flat Earth model were real, there has never been an aircraft in the history of the human race with sufficient speed and range that could complete these sectors in the time allotted.

That’s why the Flat Earth community made a blunder by stressing the temporary absence of these services, which was limited to scheduled passenger flights and limited to the Covid era in which all international service was disrupted, but it also had no choice, since the existence of these flights is proof positive of the spherical Earth.

The only option, which I see the beginnings of in your post, is to keep modifying and extending your beliefs so as to deny more and more of reality. But no amount of wishing will make a Boeing 787 travel at Mach 6 or create a magical supersonic tailwind.

lifepsyop said:

Globe believers said much the same thing about the southern ocean boat races, and upon further inspection those also turned out to be far from anything conclusive in regards to their speeds and routes taken, (and at least one of those racers is a confirmed flat earth believer.)

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That’s both a red herring and an appeal to authority fallacy. It does not change the fact that the travel times for these flights are impossible according to a globe Earth model.

lifepsyop said:

If that is happening, then it's going both ways. I've heard plenty of charges approaching blasphemy for rejecting the "science" of globe/heliocentric cosmology.

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Anecdotal evidence without proof. But it is true that it is morally wrong to accuse people of intentional dishonesty, which some members of the Flat Earth community do with regards to astronauts and other sciences, without absolute proof that they are being intentionally dishonest.

It is for this reason I have made a point in this thread personally to not accuse anyone in the Flat Earth community of intentional dishonesty, because I have no way of knowing if you are being earnest in your expressions of this belief or not. Specifically, the way most members of your community treats astronauts is less than charitable, and I have also seen a captain of a major airline, Atlas Air, which is the world’s largest operator of Boeing 747s for freight and chartered passenger flights, accused of being a con-man, without evidence, in the course of one of these threads. This activity is morally unacceptable. It does not live up to the ideals of charity and the golden rule set forth by our Lord and by St. Paul.

It is possible that some people who express Flat Earth beliefs are merely trolling, and still others are atheists who are engaging in it to make Christians and Christianity look bad, as agents-provacteurs , but in the absence of specific evidence that someone is lying about their belief in a flat Earth, I will not accuse them of that.

Apple Sky said:

And what do you explain ? Zilch.

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Please, do not lie.

The standard model explains everything we commonly observe. Sunsets, eclipses, planetary movements, asteroids, comets, gravity, different stars on different hemispheres etc. We can even calculate and predict these things to the precision of seconds, years to the future.

Your models are totally useless, inconsistent, paranoid and logically impossible.

lifepsyop said:

The "random single claims" are literally people trying to explain to you how observations fit into the model of a flat earth.

You ignore the explanations and then complain that nobody will give you a model.

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There is a reason for this - the explanations you provide to explain away one thing contradict explanations you provide to explain other things.

For example, there is the claim that photographs taken from high altitude are taken with fisheye lenses creating a false appearance of a horizon, which is debunked by the statements of the people who took those and by examinations of the cameras, which are in many cases the same types of cameras used by your community in its experience, but even saying that contradicts the claim that those high altitude photographs are impossible.

And a few posts ago, you actually tried to use the relativitistic physics against me, which is a model which requires a spheroid Earth because of what it says about gravitation in general relativity and the speed of light in special relativity.

And all of this occurs via the use of communications devices which would not function in a universe with the random and arbitrary properties you assign to it as you seek to explain away each item of evidence that collectively points to the globe theory that until the past 15 years or so, was almost universally accepted. Indeed when I first saw members of a related conspiracy, the moon landing denial conspiracy, in the 2000s, assaulting Apollo astronauts, I was shocked and appalled, and if someone had said to me then that by 2024 i would find that there was a growing online community of people who actually believe the world is flat, and who are trying to integrate that belief into Christianity as something essential to salvation, I would have found such a claim impossible to accept with equanimity. Yet here we are.

In summary, reason why the world can be asserted to be a globe is that is the only explanation which fits all of the facts. One cannot get there with a flat Earth approach of simply nitpicking.

trophy33 said:

The standard model explains everything we commonly observe. Sunsets, eclipses, planetary movements, asteroids, comets, gravity, different stars on different hemispheres etc. We can even calculate and predict these things to the precision of seconds, years to the future.

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This is true, although I do not believe we should accuse people who we debate with of intentional dishonesty, which requires a malicious intent, unless we come across absolute proof that they do not belief what they are writing. For example, if a member of the forum made pro-Flat Earth posts here, while on their profile declared that they did not believe in the Flat Earth theory but were doing some kind of social experiment, that would be a basis for saying someone had lied. One can be incorrect due to a coalescence of other factors which do not rise to the level of intentional dishonesty, but which are nonetheless harmful.

trophy33 said:

Your models are totally useless, inconsistent, paranoid and logically impossible.

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We haven’t really seen a consistent model presented by anyone in the thread.

trophy33 said:

The standard model explains everything we commonly observe. Sunsets, eclipses, planetary movements, asteroids, comets, gravity, different stars on different hemispheres etc. We can even calculate and predict these things to the precision of seconds, years to the future.

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In your own words explain all this me. one by one, if you can.

d taylor said:

To science believers because of science and not personal observation, when they see this moon. They are believing they are seeing a moon 230,00+ miles away from the earth, out in space. But in actual observed reality the moon has been place in the sky right above our head.

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But of course, we know that not to be the case. You can bounce a radio signal off the moon and the return time will be consistent with the calculated distance.

But your post is also off-topic, because this thread refers to the geometry of the Earth and not about the location of the moon, although, since you have brought it up, I will say that the demonstrated fact that the average distance of the moon, at about 1.3 light seconds from the Earth, which is the time it takes for a round-trip radio signal or other light beam to return, is another fact that makes the Flat Earth model untenable, since that distance, combined with the tidal effects generated by the gravitational mass of the moon acting on the Terrestrial oceans, requires the Earth to be globular.

Apple Sky said:

In your own words explain all this me. one by one, if you can.

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Our planet is a rotating sphere. One rotation lasts about 24 hours. It is orbited by the Moon, which is also a similar but smaller sphere. Earth orbits, with the other planets, around the sun. This cycle lasts about 365 days.
Everything in the universe is in motion. This movement is governed by the curvature of space. Space is curved by the mass of objects.

From this, you can easily derive everything we observe. For example, the Moon eclipse is when our planet gets between the Sun and the Moon. The Sun eclipse is when the Moon gets between the Earth and the Sun. Sunset is when the place where you are standing rotates away from the Sun. Seasons are caused by the distance of our planet from the Sun, during the year. Etc.

trophy33 said:

Our planet is a rotating sphere. One rotation lasts about 24 hours. It is orbited by the Moon, which is also a similar but smaller sphere. Earth orbits, with the other planets, around the sun. This cycle lasts about 365 days.
Everything in the universe is in motion. This movement is governed by the curvature of space. Space is curved by the mass of objects.

From this, you can easily derive everything we observe. For example, the Moon eclipse is when our planet gets between the Sun and the Moon. The Sun eclipse is when the Moon gets between the Earth and the Sun. Sunset is when the place where you are standing rotates away from the Sun. Seasons are caused by the distance of our planet from the Sun, during the year. Etc.

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Thank You.