Flat-Earthers

[EmSw]

If the earths flat how do sun rises work? Wouldnt light from the sun just all pour in at once?

You are correct. And with the sunset, the whole world would be dark.

 

[EmSw]

...actually, many don't.

Maybe it's coincidence, but (and I'm embarrassed to admit this), I have a family member who falls in the "flat earther" category, and he and all of his cronies swear that whenever you're sick, you actually need to be taking silver and seeing a chiropractor instead of actually trusting doctors...who they claim "are just part of the big phrama conspiracy to make us all subservient with their mind control drugs".

Do they drive cars? Do they have cell phones? Do they think science isn't involved in these things?

 

[Hieronymus]

But it is mindset that is the issue

No, not primarily.
It's about evidence and making sense of it.
Disturbed minds are present on all sides.

on threads of this sort you get nowhere trying to address anything concrete, the conspiracy theorist mindset is elusive by definition and won’t be tied to anything that can actually be discussed in detail in any useful way, it’s all about random assertions based in a sort of collective ‘feeling’, linked up with various obscure notions that involve joining up dots based on supposition and a general way of thinking, rather than actual things that actually have relationships between them.

How do you even know this?
What is a "conspiracy theorist" according to you, and who convinced you of your opinion about that?
You're looking for ad hominem argumentation to dismiss things.

Some of it is the exact outcome the (then) Soviets had in mind when they first started these disinformation programs in the 80s, but perhaps even they underestimated how much people love to be deluded, and to what extent it would take on a life of its own.

So you agree people make an effort to spread false teachings.
How about making truth seekers look stupid then?
Who benefits?
On which side do you stand?

 

[Hieronymus]

You are correct. And with the sunset, the whole world would be dark.

Not in the flat earth model that has been pushed.
The sun and moon are always above the flat surface.
Not that this idea makes it work any better, but that's the idea they hold.

 

[Hieronymus]

Do they drive cars? Do they have cell phones? Do they think science isn't involved in these things?

That has nothing to do with either flat earth or big pharma being good or evil.

 

[EmSw]

Not in the flat earth model that has been pushed.
The sun and moon are always above the flat surface.
Not that this idea makes it work any better, but that's the idea they hold.

Always being above the flat surface, does not have it rising above the horizon, nor setting behind the horizon.

Guess what? I see a sunrise and sunset almost every day.

 

[EmSw]

That has nothing to do with either flat earth or big pharma being good or evil.

So there is no conspiracy with them with these things?

 

[Tom 1]

No, not primarily.
It's about evidence and making sense of it.
Disturbed minds are present on all sides.
How do you even know this?
What is a "conspiracy theorist" according to you, and who convinced you of your opinion about that?
You're looking for ad hominem argumentation to dismiss things.So you agree people make an effort to spread false teachings.
How about making truth seekers look stupid then?
Who benefits?
On which side do you stand?

Well, yes that’s the kind of thinking that is common with these sort of ideas, connecting up loose notions as if they represent actual, real things - if this thing happened the way I believed it did, then I think this group or person would have benefitted, therefore it must be the case that this person or persons are behind it all. That isn’t ‘real’ thinking, it’s an attempt to impose internal fantasies onto the outside world. The only worthwhile way to discuss it is to take one issue at a time and discuss it in detail, taking as many factors as you can into account. Once you hit the CT vagueness horizon you have to evaluate how you actually think, as well as what you are reading.

 

[Hieronymus]

So there is no conspiracy with them with these things?

What do you mean?
People are known to conspire things behind other people's backs.
Especially when there's money or power involved.

 

[Lost4words]

Why have we not seen any flat earther reach the edge of the so called flat earth? Whats stopping them? If it is there, as they claim it is, why dont they go and video it etc?

I'll tell you why. Because its all pure fantasy.

 

[EmSw]

What do you mean?
People are known to conspire things behind other people's backs.
Especially when there's money or power involved.

Then they better quit driving their cars and using their cell phones. And they probably should quit using their refrigerators, microwaves, computers, TV's, toilets, and coffee makers.

 

[Hieronymus]

Well, yes that’s the kind of thinking that is common with these sort of ideas, connecting up loose notions as if they represent actual, real things - if this thing happened the way I believed it did, then I think this group or person would have benefitted, therefore it must be the case that this person or persons are behind it all. That isn’t ‘real’ thinking, it’s an attempt to impose internal fantasies onto the outside world.

It's also possible that you have been programmed to think like that.
Because i have noticed that you (and not just you) are usually not even interested in the things that do not make the main stream or go against it.
So it's actually not just those who you attack with ad hominem arguments, it is also your own mind set that prohibits you to seek, let alone FIND truth about "those things", whatever "those things" may be.

The only worthwhile way to discuss it is to take one issue at a time and discuss it in detail, taking as many factors as you can into account.

Of course.
So why don't people do that then?
On both sides people dismiss things before looking into it...

Once you hit the CT vagueness horizon you have to evaluate how you actually think, as well as what you are reading.

Awww.... Back to the ad hominems again...
Well let me tell you then, that it's very very difficult to trigger any curiosity to look into something controversial with people who have your mindset (or worse, you're not that unreasonable i.m.o.).
...or maybe i'm just not that good at it...
or maybe both..
But what if the story you hear is vague, but the evidence is not vague?
What if the evidence is suppressed or difficult to find, yet the theory is consistent and plausible?
Let's acknowledge that the truth is usually controversial. (depends on the subject, of course, but when it's politically charged or charging, it usually is).

To summarize, we should seek truth and go with the evidence.
That should eventually land us all in the same neighbourhood.

 

[Hieronymus]

Why have we not seen any flat earther reach the edge of the so called flat earth? Whats stopping them? If it is there, as they claim it is, why dont they go and video it etc?

I'll tell you why. Because its all pure fantasy.

It's too cold too.

 

[Hieronymus]

Then they better quit driving their cars and using their cell phones. And they probably should quit using their refrigerators, microwaves, computers, TV's, toilets, and coffee makers.

Why?

 

[EmSw]

Why?

CONSPIRACY!!!

 

[Tom 1]

It's also possible that you have been programmed to think like that.
Because i have noticed that you (and not just you) are usually not even interested in the things that do not make the main stream or go against it.
So it's actually not just those who you attack with ad hominem arguments, it is also your own mind set that prohibits you to seek, let alone FIND truth about "those things", whatever "those things" may be.Of course.
So why don't people do that then?
On both sides people dismiss things before looking into it...
Awww.... Back to the ad hominems again...
Well let me tell you then, that it's very very difficult to trigger any curiosity to look into something controversial with people who have your mindset (or worse, you're not that unreasonable i.m.o.).
...or maybe i'm just not that good at it...
or maybe both..
But what if the story you hear is vague, but the evidence is not vague?
What if the evidence is suppressed or difficult to find, yet the theory is consistent and plausible?
Let's acknowledge that the truth is usually controversial. (depends on the subject, of course, but when it's politically charged or charging, it usually is).

To summarize, we should seek truth and go with the evidence.
That should eventually land us all in the same neighbourhood.

Sure, ok, what do you think is a specific issue worth looking at? One where you think your sources are more reliable than professional journalists, and where we agree to suspend assumptions and just look at what is and isn’t the case.

Pointing out that people can develop strange ideas isn’t an ad hom, if it were then much of what psychology looks into could be considered an attempt to make someone look bad. It’s just an observation.

 

[Hieronymus]

CONSPIRACY!!!

Ah..

Well, there's a few groups we can identify.
Those who (wish to) believe there are no conspiracies (people don't ever conspire things)
Those who (wish to) believe there are conspiracies everywhere (people always conspire things)
Those who wish to know the truth and try to seek it (people sometimes conspire things)

 

[Hieronymus]

Sure, ok, what do you think is a specific issue worth looking at?

Pedophilia among the rich and powerful, for example.
You understand that buying children is very expensive, right?

One where you think your sources are more reliable than professional journalists,

Do you believe professional journalism is a guarantee for the truth?
What about their employers and redactors?
What about the owners of the news outlets?
They have to be independent, or at least not controlled by people with an agenda.
I don't think you can eliminate bias though.

But regarding pedophilia among the rich and powerful, we all know the main stream news is silent about it.
So we can't use them as a source, apart from some exceptions every now and then.

and where we agree to suspend assumptions and just look at what is it isn’t the case.

Pointing out that people can develop strange ideas isn’t an ad hom, if it were then much of what psychology looks into could be considered an attempt to make someone look bad. It’s just an observation.

Alright, i agree.
But you can't just put that stamp on every conspiracy theory or on every "truther".
Even if you think their story is vague and lacking in evidence when they tell you about it, it doesn't mean that they are wrong.

You know what i experience when i talk about these things with people? (I do a slightly better job face to face than on line)
Only a few are honest and say that they don't want to know about these things because it depresses them or it pulls them out of their comfort zone.
And why is that so?
Because they feel powerless and helpless, out of control and assuming their comfortable lives depend on the system which is run by these criminals.
They forget that they are of the 99.9% and the criminal elites are just 0.1%.

So, indeed, mindset is important, but it doesn't say anything about what is the truth and what is not.

 

[EmSw]

Ah..

Well, there's a few groups we can identify.
Those who (wish to) believe there are no conspiracies (people don't ever conspire things)
Those who (wish to) believe there are conspiracies everywhere (people always conspire things)
Those who wish to know the truth and try to seek it (people sometimes conspire things)

True, however I think most FEer's fit into the second group.

 

[Hieronymus]

True, however I think most FEer's fit into the second group.

I think so too.
They may have started out in group 3 though, but something went wrong.
i.m.o.