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Flat Earthers: What They Believe and Why

Job 33:6

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What the human authors of the various books of the bible thought of the earth, or any other part of God's Creation (or, come to that, anything that they were inspired by God to write) matters little. Their human knowledge wouldn't have included God coming to earth as Man, in the Person of Jesus Christ, and dying on the cross to save sinners who believe in Him, for example. Most of the Jews of their day were expecting a sort of military Messiah to rid them of bondage to the Roman Empire. However, the bible is "God-breathed". As Paul wrote to Timothy:

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2Ti 3:16-17 NKJV)
Well indeed, the old testament never actually mentions God coming down to earth, as man. If we are being honest here. Jesus is never mentioned in the OT. So I would agree, they didn't have that knowledge and thus they never actually mentioned Jesus' name. And that's not a big deal to me that there are things that God didn't reveal to ancient Israelites. And one of those things happens to be the shape of the earth. It just wasn't a topic that God revealed to the ancient Israelites. God chooses when and where to reveal things, and it is what it is.

Just let the evidence speak for itself. Every historical writing on the topic that we have, indicates that the old testament historically has been understood to describe an ancient cosmology.

That doesn't mean that the Bible isn't true. It just means that the authors of the Bible, who lived thousands of years ago, didn't have the scientific knowledge in terms of cosmology, that we do today.

Which shouldn't surprise anyone.

Doubling down and trying to argue that ancient Israelites did somehow know the shape of the earth doesn't actually help anything. The Bible just doesn't describe a spherical Earth.

Rather than trying to force the Bible to say things that it doesn't say, why not just let it be what it is?
 
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David Lamb

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Well indeed, the old testament never actually mentions God coming down to earth, as man. If we are being honest here. Jesus is never mentioned in the OT. So I would agree, they didn't have that knowledge and thus they never actually mentioned Jesus' name. And that's not a big deal to me that there are things that God didn't reveal to ancient Israelites. And one of those things happens to be the shape of the earth. It just wasn't a topic that God revealed to the ancient Israelites. God chooses when and where to reveal things, and it is what it is.

Just let the evidence speak for itself. Every historical writing on the topic that we have, indicates that the old testament historically has been understood to describe an ancient cosmology.

That doesn't mean that the Bible isn't true. It just means that the authors of the Bible, who lived thousands of years ago, didn't have the scientific knowledge in terms of cosmology, that we do today.

Which shouldn't surprise anyone.

Doubling down and trying to argue that ancient Israelites did somehow know the shape of the earth doesn't actually help anything. The Bible just doesn't describe a spherical Earth.

Rather than trying to force the Bible to say things that it doesn't say, why not just let it be what it is?
Not mentioned by the name "Jesus", no. However, there are many Old Testament references to the coming Messiah, the fact that He would be born of a virgin in Bethlehem, that He would live in Nazareth, that He'd be taken to and brought back from Egypt, that He would die with thieves, that His clothes would be divided by casting lots, and much more.

I didn't say that the ancient Israelites knew about the shape of the earth, just that those of them whom God used to write the bible were inspired by Him, so the contents of the bible are not limited to the knowledge of the human writers.

In saying what I did, I was not "trying to force the Bible to say things that it doesn't say."
 
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Job 33:6

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Not mentioned by the name "Jesus", no. However, there are many Old Testament references to the coming Messiah, the fact that He would be born of a virgin in Bethlehem, that He would live in Nazareth, that He'd be taken to and brought back from Egypt, that He would die with thieves, that His clothes would be divided by casting lots, and much more.

I didn't say that the ancient Israelites knew about the shape of the earth, just that those of them whom God used to write the bible were inspired by Him, so the contents of the bible are not limited to the knowledge of the human writers.

In saying what I did, I was not "trying to force the Bible to say things that it doesn't say."

So, in terms of the shape of the earth, what does the evidence tell us about what the Biblical authors thought?

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

Psalm 104:5 ESV
[5] He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.
 
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David Lamb

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So, in terms of the shape of the earth, what does the evidence tell us about what the Biblical authors thought?

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

Psalm 104:5 ESV
[5] He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.
I don't see anything that mentions the shape of the earth. It might be thought that the tree that was visible to the end of the whole earth in Daniel 4:20 must mean that the bible (or the human author of Daniel) thought the earth was flat. But the tree was part of a dream of King Nebuchadnezzar, not a real tree.

I must repeat again, the bible is God-breathed, so what the Biblical authors thought matters little.
 
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Job 33:6

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I don't see anything that mentions the shape of the earth. It might be thought that the tree that was visible to the end of the whole earth in Daniel 4:20 must mean that the bible (or the human author of Daniel) thought the earth was flat. But the tree was part of a dream of King Nebuchadnezzar, not a real tree.

I must repeat again, the bible is God-breathed, so what the Biblical authors thought matters little.
All of the above describe an ancient near east cosmology.

The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬

Flat under a seal is flat. ‭
 
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Job 33:6

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But the tree was part of a dream of King Nebuchadnezzar, not a real tree.
The point is that, to be fair, every form of evidence that we have, not just from the Bible, but from every extra biblical commentary from early Jewish rabbis, from early church fathers, from every nation around Israel as well, all evidence indicates that these ancient peoples did not know that the earth was a sphere.

That doesn't mean that the Biblical authors were not inspired. It just means that, in God inspiring them, one thing that God left out, was the shape of the earth.

It just wasn't part of what God deemed necessary to share with the ancient Israelite authors for one reason or another.

Now, we fast forward 3,000 years in the future and people are citing the Bible to argue for a flat earth.

But there is nothing about inspiration that precludes God from allowing the original author's to maintain ancient scientific perspectives.

It's not like God needed Moses to know the shape of the earth before inspiring him.

So it's ok to say, well, the Bible has passages in it, that suggest that the ancient authors may have believed that the earth was flat. And that's ok, because as Galileo had to inform the early Catholic Church, the Bible is not a science textbook.

It's ok for the Bible to present "out-dated" scientific perspectives because it isn't God's objective to teach people science to begin with. Jesus never sat down and gave a lesson to the apostles on quantum mechanics. That's just not what the Bible is about.
 
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David Lamb

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All of the above describe an ancient near east cosmology.
You keep bringing in ancient near east cosmology. All I said in the post you are replying to is that I couldn't see anything in the verses you quoted in your previous post that mentioned the shape of the earth, except for the tree in Daniel 4:20, but that was in a dream.
 
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Job 33:6

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You keep bringing in ancient near east cosmology. All I said in the post you are replying to is that I couldn't see anything in the verses you quoted in your previous post that mentioned the shape of the earth, except for the tree in Daniel 4:20, but that was in a dream.
The passage in job also describes:

The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬

And earth with edges as well, like a garment.

But ancient cosmology is by default, flat. That's just what it is.‭
 
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Job 33:6

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You keep bringing in ancient near east cosmology. All I said in the post you are replying to is that I couldn't see anything in the verses you quoted in your previous post that mentioned the shape of the earth, except for the tree in Daniel 4:20, but that was in a dream.

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬

To help explain:‭


It's not that the "earth" was "flat" per se in ANE cosmology. Rather the OT was written so long ago, that there wasn't actually a concept of "earth" to begin with. There was only "land". And naturally, land looks flat to most everyday people that look at it. The earth is so large that no ancient person could identify it's spherical curvature by looking at it.

In hebrew, in the OT, there is no word for "earth" because such a concept never actually existed to the original authors. Only in modern day English translations do we have that word "earth" only because translators are trying to help modern readers understand the broader theology of the Bible. And effort to help bridge the communication gap.

And so the land, by default, was simply assumed to be "flat".
 
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Job 33:6

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The meaning seems to be uncertain. Translations differ as to how they render it. The TRC translation, for example, says: "Hast thou helped him to spread out the heaven, which is to look upon, as it were cast of clear metal?" Anyway, these are the words of Elihu, one of the "friends" of Job.
I'll share a snippet from Ben Stanhope's book (Mis) Interpreting Genesis:

The noun raqia in the Genesis passage, which I have been translating as “firmament,” occurs in its verbal form 11 times in the Old Testament and refers to “beating out,” “stamping out,” or “spreading” by pounding. Frequently, it is used with reference to metal.[152] For example, Exod 39:3 says, “They hammered out (raqa), gold sheets.” Num 16:39 says, “They hammered out plating for the altar.” Jer 10:9 uses the term to refer to plated silver. Similarly, in a language close to Hebrew called Phoenician, we find a cognate noun mrqa, which refers to a metal “platter” or “bowl.”[153]

In the third century BC, the Old Testament was translated by seventy Jewish scholars into a Greek Bible called the Septuagint. The Septuagint was important because it served as the primary Bible of the New Testament authors and early church. When these ancient Jewish scholars made this translation, they selected a very rare term for expressing the meaning of the word raqia. They picked the Greek word stereoma, which indisputably emphasizes firmness and solidity.[154] Addressing his fellow professional Bible translators in the Journal of Translation, the senior linguist John R. Roberts concludes from the linguistic data that “the Hebrew makes it explicit” that the biblical firmament—the raqia “should be conceived of as a solid dome with a surface.”[155] The Israeli scholar Nissim Amzallag, in the department of Bible, Archaeology, and Near Eastern Studies at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, believes the term raqia, “designates the firmament as a piece of metal.”[156] Interestingly, the verbal form of raqia is used in Job 37:18 to refer to the creation of the skies—comparing its creation to the cast bronze plates from which mirrors were hammered out in the ancient world. [157] Here is the passage in three of its most popular English translations:

ESV: “Can you, like him, spread out (tarqia) the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?”

NASB: “Can you, with Him, spread out the skies, Strong as a molten mirror?”

NIV: “Can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?”

Some creationists attempt to translate this passage as referring to God spreading out the clouds, not the sky. However, the verb typically refers specifically to beating out metal and certainly does here where the context is pounding out a bronze plate. It doesn’t make much sense to compare the hardness of clouds to metal. Likewise, Clines points out that the “spreading” of clouds is an ongoing and daily occurrence that would tend to imply a repeated, ongoing action of the verb.[158] However, ancient mirrors were only “spread out” by hammering during their initial manufacture after casting. It therefore makes more sense that the verb refers to a single past action—the initial creation of the sky.[159]

It is important to emphasize that an association of the sky with metal is not unique to ancient Israel. Egyptologists have long known this idea is found in Egyptian texts and art.[160] An excellent recent study by Almansa-Villatoro in the Journal of Egyptian Archaeology emphasizes that the ancient Egyptians believed the sky was specifically made of iron as a container for the heavenly ocean upon which the sun daily sailed.[161] Undoubtedly, the Egyptians inferred this because meteors, which they assumed to be fallen pieces of the firmament, occasionally fell in their lands and were harvested for their precious iron long before the Iron Age. Archaeologists have discovered numerous Egyptian artifacts made of the celestial metal, such as a famed ornate dagger found in the folds of King Tut’s mummy.[162] The Egyptian name for iron (bia n pt) accordingly means “metal of heaven.”[163] A common theme in the Pyramid Texts (PT) speaks of the necessity for the Pharaoh to ascend to the afterlife by first “splitting” through the sky’s “metal” (i.e. PT 257). PT 469 and 584 similarly speak of the king forcefully pushing his way through the “iron door in the starry sky” and other texts liken this necessity for the king to break through the iron firmament to breaking out of an egg (PT 757, 669).[164] The primeval egg seems to have been related to the sky goddess Nut, whose name is sometimes spelled with an egg determinative and whose primary symbol was a water jar. Almansa-Villatoro cleverly recognized that the Egyptian sign used to write the noun iron (Gardiner sign N41—a containment of water) is also strangely used in writing terms relating to water and women. This is likely because, since very early in Egyptian thought, the sky goddess was intimately connected to iron—the “metal of heaven” and the great heavenly waters upon which the solar bark sails before its daily consumption and rebirth from the archetypal womb of the goddess.[165]

Amongst the ancient Sumerians along the Tigress and Euphrates rivers, scholars have noticed that multiple terms for iron and tin seem to etymologically contain the term for heaven—AN.[166] Accordingly, the Assyriologist Samuel Noah Kramer affirmed that for the Sumerians, “The earth was a flat disk surmounted in the shape of a vault. Just what this heavenly solid was thought to be is still uncertain; to judge from the fact that the Sumerian term for tin is ‘metal of heaven,’ it may have been tin.”[167] Comparison with the Egyptian term “metal of heaven” seems to strengthen this interpretation.[168]

The opening of a Sumerian text called Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the nether world speaks of a time when heaven was “separated” from earth—when the two were “divided” from each other. Indeed, it can virtually be inferred that “The idea of a separation of heaven and earth is present in all ancient Near Eastern mythologies.”[169]

[171] An inscription by the carver labels the image “heaven” and “earth.”[172] Likewise, a papyrus of the Aegean poet Sappho (c. 620-570 BC) refers to the dawn ascending into “the bowl.”[173]

A related concept we see in the Bible is that the firmament is visually comparable to some sort of blue stone. In Exodus 24, Moses, Aaron, and Israel’s elders ascend Mount Sanai. Verse 10 tells us that upon doing so, “they saw the God of Israel, and under his feet was pavement like lapis lazuli,[174] like the body of the heavens in clarity.”[175]

In Ezekiel 1 the raqia is said to be crystalline or ice-like in color. In a vision, Ezekiel sees God seated on his throne above the firmament upheld by cherubim whose four faces represent the cardinal quarters of the Babylonian compass.[176] The message of the vision is that God’s reign extends over the whole of the earth even though the Jews are sitting in exile in Babylon: And a form was over the heads of the living creatures: a firmament (raqia) like the fearful color of crystal…and there was a voice from over the firmament (raqia) which was over their heads…. And from over the firmament (raqia) which was over their heads was the form of a throne of lapis lazuli stone in appearance. And from up above, upon the likeness of the throne, was an image in the appearance of a man…and the appearance of amber…. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I beheld it, I flung myself upon my face….

We know this passage is describing a representation of the sky because, as a noun, the Bible uses this word raqia 17 times across Genesis, the Psalms, Ezekiel and Daniel.[177] In every single other case, it refers to the sky.

Likewise, the context of this passage is Babylonian, and it is remarkably similar in its enthronement description to a Babylonian text depicting Marduk seated on his lapis lazuli throne over the solid lower heavens of Babylonian cosmology, similarly surrounded by the gleam of amber.[178] The view that the heavens are stone is stated point-blank in the religious texts of Israel’s neighbors. One Akkadian text reads: The Upper Heavens are luludanilu-stone. They belong to (the god) Anu. He settled the 300 Igigi (gods) inside. The Middle Heavens are saggilmud stone. They belong to the Igigi. Bel sat on the high [platform] inside, The Lower Heavens are jasper. They belong to the stars. He drew the constellations of the gods on them.[179] A different tablet repeats the same phrase about the lower heavens.[180] In these texts, we are told the undersurface of the sky looking up from the earth is Jasper—a glassy, often translucent type of chalcedony. The text is probably talking about a sky-blue variety known from Persia.[181] Upon this firmament, the stars are “drawn,” perhaps similar to the concept of them being literally “set in the firmament” in Gen 1:17.

I could draw on more resources. But it's pretty self explanatory why Job would identify the sky as being hard like cast metal.

It's a part of historical ancient Israelite context and cosmology.

And this is a well understood fact of Jewish interpretive history. There are lots of writings throughout history going back to times well before Jesus, with respect to the sky being of a solid nature. And it's found in the writings of early church fathers as well.

It's the historical context of the old testament, an ancient near east context.

There is a reason the KJV calls it the "Firm"- ament. King James got it right. Modern day YECs got it wrong. It's that simple.
 
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DennisF

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I'll share a snippet from Ben Stanhope's book (Mis) Interpreting Genesis:

The noun raqia in the Genesis passage, which I have been translating as “firmament,” occurs in its verbal form 11 times in the Old Testament and refers to “beating out,” “stamping out,” or “spreading” by pounding. Frequently, it is used with reference to metal.[152] For example, Exod 39:3 says, “They hammered out (raqa), gold sheets.” Num 16:39 says, “They hammered out plating for the altar.” Jer 10:9 uses the term to refer to plated silver. Similarly, in a language close to Hebrew called Phoenician, we find a cognate noun mrqa, which refers to a metal “platter” or “bowl.”[153]

In the third century BC, the Old Testament was translated by seventy Jewish scholars into a Greek Bible called the Septuagint. The Septuagint was important because it served as the primary Bible of the New Testament authors and early church. When these ancient Jewish scholars made this translation, they selected a very rare term for expressing the meaning of the word raqia. They picked the Greek word stereoma, which indisputably emphasizes firmness and solidity.[154] Addressing his fellow professional Bible translators in the Journal of Translation, the senior linguist John R. Roberts concludes from the linguistic data that “the Hebrew makes it explicit” that the biblical firmament—the raqia “should be conceived of as a solid dome with a surface.”[155] The Israeli scholar Nissim Amzallag, in the department of Bible, Archaeology, and Near Eastern Studies at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, believes the term raqia, “designates the firmament as a piece of metal.”[156] Interestingly, the verbal form of raqia is used in Job 37:18 to refer to the creation of the skies—comparing its creation to the cast bronze plates from which mirrors were hammered out in the ancient world. [157] Here is the passage in three of its most popular English translations:

ESV: “Can you, like him, spread out (tarqia) the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?”

NASB: “Can you, with Him, spread out the skies, Strong as a molten mirror?”

NIV: “Can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?”

Some creationists attempt to translate this passage as referring to God spreading out the clouds, not the sky. However, the verb typically refers specifically to beating out metal and certainly does here where the context is pounding out a bronze plate. It doesn’t make much sense to compare the hardness of clouds to metal. Likewise, Clines points out that the “spreading” of clouds is an ongoing and daily occurrence that would tend to imply a repeated, ongoing action of the verb.[158] However, ancient mirrors were only “spread out” by hammering during their initial manufacture after casting. It therefore makes more sense that the verb refers to a single past action—the initial creation of the sky.[159]

It is important to emphasize that an association of the sky with metal is not unique to ancient Israel. Egyptologists have long known this idea is found in Egyptian texts and art.[160] An excellent recent study by Almansa-Villatoro in the Journal of Egyptian Archaeology emphasizes that the ancient Egyptians believed the sky was specifically made of iron as a container for the heavenly ocean upon which the sun daily sailed.[161] Undoubtedly, the Egyptians inferred this because meteors, which they assumed to be fallen pieces of the firmament, occasionally fell in their lands and were harvested for their precious iron long before the Iron Age. Archaeologists have discovered numerous Egyptian artifacts made of the celestial metal, such as a famed ornate dagger found in the folds of King Tut’s mummy.[162] The Egyptian name for iron (bia n pt) accordingly means “metal of heaven.”[163] A common theme in the Pyramid Texts (PT) speaks of the necessity for the Pharaoh to ascend to the afterlife by first “splitting” through the sky’s “metal” (i.e. PT 257). PT 469 and 584 similarly speak of the king forcefully pushing his way through the “iron door in the starry sky” and other texts liken this necessity for the king to break through the iron firmament to breaking out of an egg (PT 757, 669).[164] The primeval egg seems to have been related to the sky goddess Nut, whose name is sometimes spelled with an egg determinative and whose primary symbol was a water jar. Almansa-Villatoro cleverly recognized that the Egyptian sign used to write the noun iron (Gardiner sign N41—a containment of water) is also strangely used in writing terms relating to water and women. This is likely because, since very early in Egyptian thought, the sky goddess was intimately connected to iron—the “metal of heaven” and the great heavenly waters upon which the solar bark sails before its daily consumption and rebirth from the archetypal womb of the goddess.[165]

Amongst the ancient Sumerians along the Tigress and Euphrates rivers, scholars have noticed that multiple terms for iron and tin seem to etymologically contain the term for heaven—AN.[166] Accordingly, the Assyriologist Samuel Noah Kramer affirmed that for the Sumerians, “The earth was a flat disk surmounted in the shape of a vault. Just what this heavenly solid was thought to be is still uncertain; to judge from the fact that the Sumerian term for tin is ‘metal of heaven,’ it may have been tin.”[167] Comparison with the Egyptian term “metal of heaven” seems to strengthen this interpretation.[168]

The opening of a Sumerian text called Gilgamesh, Enkidu and the nether world speaks of a time when heaven was “separated” from earth—when the two were “divided” from each other. Indeed, it can virtually be inferred that “The idea of a separation of heaven and earth is present in all ancient Near Eastern mythologies.”[169]

[171] An inscription by the carver labels the image “heaven” and “earth.”[172] Likewise, a papyrus of the Aegean poet Sappho (c. 620-570 BC) refers to the dawn ascending into “the bowl.”[173]

A related concept we see in the Bible is that the firmament is visually comparable to some sort of blue stone. In Exodus 24, Moses, Aaron, and Israel’s elders ascend Mount Sanai. Verse 10 tells us that upon doing so, “they saw the God of Israel, and under his feet was pavement like lapis lazuli,[174] like the body of the heavens in clarity.”[175]

In Ezekiel 1 the raqia is said to be crystalline or ice-like in color. In a vision, Ezekiel sees God seated on his throne above the firmament upheld by cherubim whose four faces represent the cardinal quarters of the Babylonian compass.[176] The message of the vision is that God’s reign extends over the whole of the earth even though the Jews are sitting in exile in Babylon: And a form was over the heads of the living creatures: a firmament (raqia) like the fearful color of crystal…and there was a voice from over the firmament (raqia) which was over their heads…. And from over the firmament (raqia) which was over their heads was the form of a throne of lapis lazuli stone in appearance. And from up above, upon the likeness of the throne, was an image in the appearance of a man…and the appearance of amber…. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I beheld it, I flung myself upon my face….

We know this passage is describing a representation of the sky because, as a noun, the Bible uses this word raqia 17 times across Genesis, the Psalms, Ezekiel and Daniel.[177] In every single other case, it refers to the sky.

Likewise, the context of this passage is Babylonian, and it is remarkably similar in its enthronement description to a Babylonian text depicting Marduk seated on his lapis lazuli throne over the solid lower heavens of Babylonian cosmology, similarly surrounded by the gleam of amber.[178] The view that the heavens are stone is stated point-blank in the religious texts of Israel’s neighbors. One Akkadian text reads: The Upper Heavens are luludanilu-stone. They belong to (the god) Anu. He settled the 300 Igigi (gods) inside. The Middle Heavens are saggilmud stone. They belong to the Igigi. Bel sat on the high [platform] inside, The Lower Heavens are jasper. They belong to the stars. He drew the constellations of the gods on them.[179] A different tablet repeats the same phrase about the lower heavens.[180] In these texts, we are told the undersurface of the sky looking up from the earth is Jasper—a glassy, often translucent type of chalcedony. The text is probably talking about a sky-blue variety known from Persia.[181] Upon this firmament, the stars are “drawn,” perhaps similar to the concept of them being literally “set in the firmament” in Gen 1:17.

I could draw on more resources. But it's pretty self explanatory why Job would identify the sky as being hard like cast metal.

It's a part of historical ancient Israelite context and cosmology.

And this is a well understood fact of Jewish interpretive history. There are lots of writings throughout history going back to times well before Jesus, with respect to the sky being of a solid nature. And it's found in the writings of early church fathers as well.

It's the historical context of the old testament, an ancient near east context.

There is a reason the KJV calls it the "Firm"- ament. King James got it right. Modern day YECs got it wrong. It's that simple.
Quite interesting. I know of no reason to believe that the ancients, whether Sumerian, Egyptian, or Israelite, would have known much about the actual physical composition of the sky. Either this was their metaphorical reference to observed properties of the sky - it is blue in color, for instance, and also has reflective properties like a metal mirror - or else they might have been told something more by the gods.

Supposing the latter, why would they have been given the impression that the sky is solid? One possibility is that in traveling at the high speeds the gods would be traveling to enter earth, the interface of the atmosphere with the (near) vacuum of space would appear to have solidity to a high-speed craft. Apollo spacecraft returning from the moon had to enter at a rather narrow range of angles to avoid skipping off the atmosphere like a pebble skips off the surface of a pond.

Another possibility is that the troposphere and mesosphere have a definable boundary as set by the ambient temperature as a function of elevation. Ascending into the sky and beyond, the temperature of the air is a roller-coaster function with several extrema. These extrema set boundaries like surfaces that also could be said to have some solidity to them.
 
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Quite interesting. I know of no reason to believe that the ancients, whether Sumerian, Egyptian, or Israelite, would have known much about the actual physical composition of the sky. Either this was their metaphorical reference to observed properties of the sky - it is blue in color, for instance, and also has reflective properties like a metal mirror - or else they might have been told something more by the gods.

Supposing the latter, why would they have been given the impression that the sky is solid? One possibility is that in traveling at the high speeds the gods would be traveling to enter earth, the interface of the atmosphere with the (near) vacuum of space would appear to have solidity to a high-speed craft. Apollo spacecraft returning from the moon had to enter at a rather narrow range of angles to avoid skipping off the atmosphere like a pebble skips off the surface of a pond.

Another possibility is that the troposphere and mesosphere have a definable boundary as set by the ambient temperature as a function of elevation. Ascending into the sky and beyond, the temperature of the air is a roller-coaster function with several extrema. These extrema set boundaries like surfaces that also could be said to have some solidity to them.

Indeed this makes sense.

Unfortunately what is being argued is that the world is actually flat and is actually encapsulated in a solid dome because of a misunderstanding of the nature of the Old Testament, with people regarding it as a science textbook rather than what Christ our True God says about it in Luke ch. 24, that all the books of the Law and Prophet testify about Him.

If we understand and read the Old Testament as Christological prophecy, it is difficult to see what a flat world and a solid sky dome literally existing (when we know they literally do not) would have to do with the prophecy of the Incarnation of the Only Begotten Son and Word of God. Genesis 1 is directly correlated with John 1 and the Gospel narrations of the Passion and Resurrection of our Lord, in that on the first day, the Light of the World entered Jerusalem, sixth day our incarnate God remade man in His image on the Cross by conquering death and ransoming us from our own sins through His blood, and on the Seventh Day He rested in a tomb, and on the Eighth Day, the first Day of the next week, of the Age to Come, Christ is Risen from the Dead, Trampling Down Death by Death. Let there be Light: the Orthodox hymn Shine, Shine, New Jerusalem is sung at the Paschal Liturgy on the Feast of the Resurrection just after midnight on Pascha (which in some Western countries is also called Easter Sunday but this is not the original name, nor universally used, the Dutch for example call it Passen, meaning Pascha).
 
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Supposing the latter, why would they have been given the impression that the sky is solid?

What else could have held the waters above but the firmament (raqia)

The Hebrew word רקיע rāqîa‘, or ‘firmament’ in the KJV, denotes a solid dome over the earth.
 
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Lost4words

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Imagine going back 2,000 years in a tank....what would they say about it? How would they describe it? Same with a F18....how would they describe it?

They wouldnt be able to comprehend what they were....
 
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Job 33:6

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All I said in the post you are replying to is that I couldn't see anything in the verses you quoted in your previous post that mentioned the shape of the earth, except for the tree in Daniel 4:20, but that was in a dream.
And yes, it is in a dream, but the earth in this dream is flat, nonetheless.

Job 28:24 NRSVUE
[24] For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.
Quite interesting. I know of no reason to believe that the ancients, whether Sumerian, Egyptian, or Israelite, would have known much about the actual physical composition of the sky. Either this was their metaphorical reference to observed properties of the sky - it is blue in color, for instance, and also has reflective properties like a metal mirror - or else they might have been told something more by the gods.

Supposing the latter, why would they have been given the impression that the sky is solid? One possibility is that in traveling at the high speeds the gods would be traveling to enter earth, the interface of the atmosphere with the (near) vacuum of space would appear to have solidity to a high-speed craft. Apollo spacecraft returning from the moon had to enter at a rather narrow range of angles to avoid skipping off the atmosphere like a pebble skips off the surface of a pond.

Another possibility is that the troposphere and mesosphere have a definable boundary as set by the ambient temperature as a function of elevation. Ascending into the sky and beyond, the temperature of the air is a roller-coaster function with several extrema. These extrema set boundaries like surfaces that also could be said to have some solidity to them.
Id say that the easiest explanation is to simply view the text as phenomenological, or describing the sky with figurative language.

Later rabbinic writings speak about breaking through the raqia with drills. Various nations around the world also have ancient stories about shooting the sky with arrows and climbing ladders up to it to ascend through its windows to heaven, as well.

On that note, there is a verse in Genesis about angels ascending a ladder to heaven as well.

Genesis 28:12 ESV
[12] And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

And a lot of creationists like to repeat "well like Daniel 4:20, this is a dream". But I think this response misses the point that these texts are affirmations of the same cosmology of Job, Exodus, Genesis, Ezekiel and everywhere else in the Bible. As if people would mysterious dream of a flat earth despite not thinking of such a thing when they were awake (Daniel 4:20).

It's more reasonable, much like most people do when they read Genesis 7:11 and 8:2 about windows opening and closing in the sky to release water, to simply conclude that Genesis and the old testament are figuratively expressing an ancient Israelite cosmology.

Genesis 8:2 ESV
[2] The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

It need not be more complicated than this.

It's the same thing with Joshua 10 or old test references about kidneys, or Job or proverbs describing boundaries for the sea etc.

Job 7:12 NIV
[12] Am I the sea, or the monster of the deep, that you put me under guard?

Psalm 89:9-11 ESV
[9] You rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, you still them. [10] You crushed Rahab like a carcass; you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm. [11] The heavens are yours; the earth also is yours; the world and all that is in it, you have founded them.

Proverbs 8:28-29 ESV
[28] when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, [29] when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

Job 38:8-10 ESV
[8] “Or who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb, [9] when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band, [10] and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors,

And some of this relates to the crushing of leviathan, a representation of the sea. But much like the waters above, the waters below were also held back by a figuratively solid structure.

And then you get flat earthers that will say, "well maybe the earth actually is flat like in Daniel, and maybe the sky actually is or was solid". Um no, there never were nor will there ever be, windows in the sky opening and closing to release and restrain water. The Bible is not an astronomy textbook.

Then you get people making up ideas about vapor canopies during the flood or ice particles at the edge of the universe and all sorts of absurd ideas, because people don't want to just come to terms with the fact that the Bible uses figurative language.
 
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And yes, it is in a dream, but the earth in this dream is flat, nonetheless.

Job 28:24 NRSVUE
[24] For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.
However, Job 28:24 is Almighty God speaking, so of course He can see the entire earth, regardless of its shape.
 
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Job 33:6

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However, Job 28:24 is Almighty God speaking, so of course He can see the entire earth, regardless of its shape.
No, it's not God speaking about himself in the 3rd person. The earth doesn't have "ends", it is a sphere.

"But that's figurative"

That's the point. It is figurative. And so it is everywhere else in the OT that describes ancient cosmologies. Including in Genesis 1.
 
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No, it's not God speaking about himself in the 3rd person.
Sorry, my mistake! However, the point I was making still stands. The verse is certainly about almighty God, as we see if we take it with the previous verse:

“God understands its way, And He knows its place. For He looks to the ends of the earth, And sees under the whole heavens,” (Job 28:23-24 NKJV)

Apologies again for my carelessness.
 
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Sorry, my mistake! However, the point I was making still stands. The verse is certainly about almighty God, as we see if we take it with the previous verse:

“God understands its way, And He knows its place. For He looks to the ends of the earth, And sees under the whole heavens,” (Job 28:23-24 NKJV)

Apologies again for my carelessness.
Sure. Ive also added to my last post.

At the end of the day, the verse still contains its same figurative language that reflects ancient Israelites cosmology. Ie "the ends of the earth".

Just like in Daniel, where a tree grows so tall that it can be seen from the ends of the earth in chapter 4. Sometimes these ideas that reflect the ancient cosmology are described in prophetic dreams. Sometimes when people are awake. But in the end it all boils down to the same ancient isrealite contextual background.

And I'd recommend the following post for additional reference:
 
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Indeed this makes sense.

Unfortunately what is being argued is that the world is actually flat and is actually encapsulated in a solid dome because of a misunderstanding of the nature of the Old Testament, with people regarding it as a science textbook rather than what Christ our True God says about it in Luke ch. 24, that all the books of the Law and Prophet testify about Him.

If we understand and read the Old Testament as Christological prophecy, it is difficult to see what a flat world and a solid sky dome literally existing (when we know they literally do not) would have to do with the prophecy of the Incarnation of the Only Begotten Son and Word of God. Genesis 1 is directly correlated with John 1 and the Gospel narrations of the Passion and Resurrection of our Lord, in that on the first day, the Light of the World entered Jerusalem, sixth day our incarnate God remade man in His image on the Cross by conquering death and ransoming us from our own sins through His blood, and on the Seventh Day He rested in a tomb, and on the Eighth Day, the first Day of the next week, of the Age to Come, Christ is Risen from the Dead, Trampling Down Death by Death. Let there be Light: the Orthodox hymn Shine, Shine, New Jerusalem is sung at the Paschal Liturgy on the Feast of the Resurrection just after midnight on Pascha (which in some Western countries is also called Easter Sunday but this is not the original name, nor universally used, the Dutch for example call it Passen, meaning Pascha).
Thank God for Lutherans, in maintaining a Christological emphasis in understanding the word of God.

There is a book titled The Meaning of Creation (John Knox Press) by Lutheran pastor-scholar Conrad Hyers in which he makes the case that the Gen. 1 text is a refutation of the various gods comprising the regions of nature. The account of creation avoids using, for instance, the Hebrew words for sun and moon and uses descriptive language instead because the literal words in Hebrew are sun-god and moon-god. The creation account ends (Gen 2:4) with a touch of satire: These are the generations (genealogies of the gods), when they were created (instead).

Second, it is my hope that eventually the missionary accommodation of putting a plastic Jesus overlay over pagan holidays such as Christmas and Easter will be replaced with the holidays (holy-days) Yahweh gave us to celebrate instead. Recognizing the Passover as one of them instead of Easter (the pagan Norse eoster) is a good start. Some churches have church camps, which is an unwitting move toward bringing back the "Feast of Booths" or what I translate in the vernacular as the Camping Festival, which reminds us that we are sojourners seeking to travel in God's tent (Psalm 15). The two groups of Yahwist holidays are in the spring and the fall. It is not surprising that the feast of Trumpets - trumpets sounding the arrival of the king - should be around the time of the birth of Jesus.

The whole YEC idea is based on faulty biblical exegesis. Nobody tries to interpret the Sumerian or Egyptian writings as modern science. Why should the Bible be any different? The Genesis account answers that Yahweh gave adam "dominion" over the physical surroundings, where dominion implies the ability to know it. That effort in our time is called science, whether physical or social.
 
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