Flat Earth? Not Far From The Truth.

Messenger 3k said:

Amazingly scripture has the same opinion about you.

1 Timothy 6:20,

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called. (KJV)

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The KJV does not mean what you think it means.

Radagast said:

The KJV does not mean what you think it means.

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Messenger 3k said:

Wrong.

I know what it looks like.

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Then, to quote you... "Show us!"

That is the real look of the earth.

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You seem to have problems understanding the question. WHAT is the real look of the earth?
What you showed us in your video isn't the "real look"... you already conceded that.
So WHAT is it? Show us.

You nitpicking on why I never used a circular map of my own, proves nothing.

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I am "nitpicking" why you chose one shape, when you yourself say that this isn't the shape.

What's the difference? I shrink the map, it fits. Then I fill in details on the edges.

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The difference is if this "map" is "spatially accurate", as you called it, or not.

But I've never been to the edges (as yourself) so how would I know?

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Just a few sentences earlier, you said that you do know how the earth looks like... now you say you don't because you haven't been "to the edges". So what is it?

You agree the edges exist, you just don't agree it ends there.

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Not at all. I do not agree that edges exist on the surface of the earth. That's kind of the point.
That's just basic geometry. The surface of a sphere is finite - meaning it has a specific size - but also unlimited - meaning that regardless of the (2D) direction you move, you will always stay on that surface.
Thank you for being that elaborate. The "etc" is really helping.
Let's see.
Drag forces and resistance are relevant when you move relative to - and through - a "stationary" medium. If there is no relative movement, you won't experience these forces.
Easy testable observation: board a train. It will certainly move a different speeds, even in the range from 5 to 80 mph. See if you experience any kind of "drag forces" inside the train. (Hint: you won't).
Inertia is how resistent objects are to changes in their velocity. If you move at a constant linear speed - regardless of 5 or 80 mph - there is no change in velocity... and inertia doesn't do anything.
It cannot tell you anything about your velocity, it can only tell you about your acceleration.

There are indeed "et ceteras".
You can gauge your velocity visually. But that requires knowledge about the spatial relations and correct measurements of your visible surrounding.
It works quite well when driving, for example - because you have certain experiences about the size of the objects you see. But it doesn't work when you don't have this visual clues... for example on the open sea, or in the air.

You can use other indirect means. You can estimate your velocity by the sound of your propulsion or by the vibrations of your vehicle. But that again is dependent on your experiences in this regard, and the limits of your means of movement.
An old small car on a bad road may shake heavily at low speeds... a large passenger plane in calm weather will give you a smooth ride at very high speeds.

So, basically, you don't have any means to directly experience velocity. There is no direct difference between 80mph and 5mph.

But, ok, you asked for math. (Forgive me if I will mostly use metric units for this... the math stays the same, but I won't be bothered to do all the transformations between inches and feet and miles.)

Let's see if we can find out the relation of "speed" to "dizzyness".
Do you have a chair that can rotate? Sit on it. Spin it around. Faster. Let's say you manage one revolution every two seconds. That's achievable and not even too fast.
Do you get dizzy? I bet you do!
So... how fast are you going, linear-wise?
Obviously you are not going anywhere... you are sitting smack-bang on the center. But your ears, where your sense of motion is comming from, are slightly offset, so you do "feel" the movement.
Let's say your ears are something about 4 inches from the center of rotation, about 10 centimeters. That means they spin in a circle with the circumference of 4in*2*PI... that's about 25 inches, or 63 centimeters.

You are moving 63 cm every 2 seconds. That's 1.89 m per minute. If you kept that up for an hour, your ears would have travelled the distance of not quite 1.2 km, or about three quarters of a mile.

So your "speed" would be 0.75 mph. That's not very fast, is it? And yet you get dizzy.
Too slow, you think? Ok, let's crank it up. Do one full rotation every second.
The math is easy... it's a simple linear relation.
Your speed is now 1.5 mph. Still not very fast... but I hope you can keep your breakfast in.
Want to go faster? Double the rotations! Two rotations every second. Hold on to your pants, pal!
We are now at a speed of 3 mph. That's about normal walking speed! Do you get dizzy while walking? (If you do, contact a doctor, urgently!)

Now, when you have stopped throwing up, let's take a short ride. Standard US town limits. 30 mph. That's ten times as fast as your ears spun around!
Do you feel dizzy? No?

Want to go faster? Let's take the highway. Or even better, take a hop over to my place and we can hit the Autobahn. Want to go 100mph? 120? 150? 175? Let's rent a nice Mercedes and test it out.
Do you feel dizzy?

Hey, when you came to visit me, you took a plane, right? How fast do you think this iron bird went? 500, 550 mph? Did you feel dizzy, or did you rest comfortably in your seat and enjoyed the meal?

See... somehow it is not the linear speed that you feel and that makes you "dizzy". You can go very very slow... and feel it hit you like a turbine. And you can go very very fast... and don't feel a thing.

Because it isn't the speed that matters... it is the change in velocity, which in the case of rotations is based on the angular speed, not the linear speed. And the angular speed of the earth is only 360° per 24 hours.

Messenger 3k said:

Lol.

Kids, hope you're observing? Whether you believe a lie, or the truth, is really up to you.

These people say, the layers of gases called clouds are moving at a speed of 1000 miles/hour!

And when we look up, these clouds manage to stay in the same shape.

Isn't that amazing??

Amazing!

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Ah, the "Argument from impossibly big numbers".

What really is amazing is the inability of some people to grasp the simplest physical concepts.

Messenger 3k said:

When you get your license, get into mommy's car and drive into the highway at 70 miles/hour.

Pretty fast right?

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And how does it feel? Do you feel that motion? If you are on a straight stretch of road with the windows closed, and you (in the passenger seat hopefully), pour cream into your coffee. Does it splat on the back window, or does it pour straight down?

Messenger 3k said:

Remember kids, you live on the surface of the earth moving at 1000 miles/hour!

The clouds (gases, mind you) also move at 1000 miles/hour but remain in shape like a solid block.

Amazing!!!

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Amazing that you did not respond to what I said.

The Great Red Spot has kept its shape for 400 years.



Remember kids, a spot on Jupiter's equator moves at about 30,000 miles per hour!

Messenger 3k said:

Deception.

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So how do you test to ensure that you are not deceived?

You don't even need to test necessarily. You can just reflect on your experience of the world. Have you flown in a plane? Driven fast in a car? What did you notice about the motion as you sat comfortably in your seat?

Messenger 3k said:

Lol.

Kids, hope you're observing? Whether you believe a lie, or the truth, is really up to you.

These people say, the layers of gases called clouds are moving at a speed of 1000 miles/hour!

And when we look up, these clouds manage to stay in the same shape.

Isn't that amazing??

Amazing!

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At what point does velocity become "Amazing?" To the point that clouds remaining intact becomes impressive? If you smoke a cigarette in a car at 60 miles an hour, you can blow a smoke ring, and it will stay intact for the same amount of time as if you were standing still in a room.

At 180 miles an hour on a bullet train, you could do the same thing.

Likewise at 600 mph in a passenger airliner.

Same thing at mach 2 in a military jet....oops, wait, that's more than 1000 mph.

Sorry, your fact fails to amaze.

I wonder what the Logos thinks of this prolned discussion. He went to infinite lengths to plan order it all.

coffee4u said:

The Book of Enoch? That is not scripture but apocalyptic religious text. I believe in sola scriptura.

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Believe what you may, but the OP video was about a verse in 1 Enoch 72:3. I gave the full context of the Book of Luminaries earlier (#260) to give the bigger picture.

1 Enoch is authoritative. Enoch is the very first astronomer. He describes the paths of the sun, moon, stars, and also explains the seasons. The lunar quarter phases, and calculates the solar year to 364 days and a lunar year to 354 days.

Not bad for an ancient unscientific guy. God didn't just take him to go play a harp (Genesis 5:24). Here is a summary from Nickelsburg, who has written two commentaries on the book of 1 Enoch.


“in it the original length of the astronomical work is significantly abbreviated. It begins by saying that Uriel revealed these matters to Enoch (72:1) and then immediately gives the law of the great light, the sun; included is the amount of time each day that it is light and dark (understanding a day to be divided into 18 units) over a one-year period of 364 days. There are 12 months of 30 days each, with one extra day in the third, sixth, ninth, and twelfth months. The sun rises through six gates in the east and sets through six gates in the west; it moves from gate to gate, switching each month in its annual progression (72:2-37). The moon, which also moves through these gates, is the subject of 73:1—74:9, while 74:10-17 compare a solar year of 364 days and a lunar one of 354 days. The subject of gates in the heavens is very important in 75:1—76:14; the winds emerge from sets of three gates situated in each of the cardinal points of the compass. This geographical notice precedes a section in which other statements about the earth appear (the four quarters, seven mountains, seven rivers, seven islands [77:1-8]). Chapter 78 reverts to the sun and moon. It seems that chapter 79 sets the stage for the completion of the book, since in it Enoch addresses his son Methuselah and tells him that the revelation about the law of the stars is complete. Related contents may be found in 81:1—82:9.”



Nickelsburg, George W.E.. 1 Enoch (pp. 6-7). Fortress Press..

Paul4JC said:

1 Enoch is authoritative.

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No. Except perhaps if you're Ethiopian.

Trying to edit this and it won't let me.

Paul4JC said:

Believe what you may, but the OP video was about a verse in 1 Enoch 72:3. I gave the full context of the Book of Luminaries earlier (#260) to give the bigger picture.

1 Enoch is authoritative. [/QUOTE]

I believe in scripture.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Which is where Biblical doctrine comes from.

Still waiting on my questions to be answered
1) Science to back up the shape claim
2) Evidence on why NASA and others would carry out such a long expensive hoax
3) Scripture to make this a Biblical teaching.

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Messenger 3k said:

But, but, but...

The earth's surface moves at 1000 miles/hour.

An airplane moves at about 500 miles/hour.

When flying, why doesn't the earth move faster than the airplane?​

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Relative velocities.
When you walk to the dining car on an interstate train, your velocity relative to the train is maybe one meter per second. Your velocity relative to the area the train is travelling through will be much faster.

To all intents and purposes, the Earth was flat for most people for all of time before dependence on communication satelites.

Now you might say that the Earth was never literally flat, and you'd be right, but you would also be making a pointless comment. People did not live as if the Earth was a sphere. They lived as if it was flat and the sun went around it, and most importantly...this WORKED.

Now you might say that the literal truth matters more than what works, but the literal truth is that the keyboard in front of you is mostly empty space between atoms...but we still experience and treat it as solid.

Point being that you can live as if the world is flat, and it will not harm you in the slightest.

Messenger 3k said:

Science says this, science says that.

Should we care? No.

What does scripture say?

A sizable number of scriptures show, if anything, earth is not a spinning ball.

We test all things (including science), through God's word.

We do not test God's word, through things (especially science).

The truth is out.

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If you have a severe pain it's straight off to the doctor, and let centuries of scientific research soothe that pain.

If you want to find out something, then google it. That is, take advantage of decades of scientific research and use that computer to find out.

Want to watch the footy? Turn on the television and watch it sitting on the lounge, in the comfort of your own home. That tv represents decades of scientific research.

Jump in the car and visit a friend, science again.

Then for some unknown reason, science takes a back seat when it comes to the shape of the earth?

Inkfingers said:

To all intents and purposes, the Earth was flat for most people for all of time before dependence on communication satelites.

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Not really. First, because there were stars to see in the sky, and astronomy alone proves that the world is round. And second, because you can see the curve at sea, as ships go "hull down."