Flag Desecration Amendment Crisis

[AirPo]

I got this email today and thought it would make a good topic.

Congressional supporters of the so-called flag “desecration” amendment are pushing forward this week. This proposed amendment to the Constitution would betray the promise of our democracy by restricting the First Amendment. In the past we have been able to check their attempts but now, for the first time ever, there may not be enough votes in the Senate to stop it.

We need your help today to urge the House and Senate to reject this dangerous amendment. Click here to write your Representative and Senators and urge them to oppose the flag “desecration” amendment. Without your action, Congress may restrict the First Amendment for the first time in history.

Why should you care so much about this proposed amendment? It infringes on freedom of speech by placing restrictions on the First Amendment. It also sets the stage for the government to restrict other speech it might disagree with. What’s next? Amending the Constitution to prevent people from criticizing the President during times of war?

Veterans opposing this amendment have told Congress that they fought to defend free speech and the other freedoms that we hold dear. We cannot let Congress strip these freedoms using the guise of patriotism. And while few of us might support the burning of flags, we can all agree that it is much more wrong for the government to infringe on our free speech.

In 2000, we were also in a dangerous situation, but with the help of our members and our affiliates we were able to secure the wavering votes of several Senators who considered supporting the measure. We also convinced two Senators who had long voted in support of the amendment to oppose it. We need to build on this success and stop the flag desecration amendment cold.

Click here to take action and urge your Representative and Senators to defend free speech or read more here.

http://action.aclu.org/flagaction

 

[Verv]

I believe that the desecration of the flag should be a legal act in the United States of America. It is a right to do what we wish with our property -- if the flag was bought by them, and they chose to desecrate it, that is their choice.

However, if I was someone who sold flags, I would have a buyer's agreement that they would sign, agreeing to treat the flag with its' honor and respect, being that to me the desecration of the flag that I wear on my right shoulder every day is disgusting.

I would also be inclined, if the circumstances were right, to be willing to spend the night (or the month) in jail to have the pleasure of beating a flag-burner senseless. I would be willing to break the law to break the nose of someone who would destroy the flag -- for when they destroy our flag, they destroy a monument to those who fought and died for our freedom, and they destroy a monument to the great, prosperous, and tremendous Republic which we have established. I think that I could not contain myself if I saw as much, and that even if I wanted to restrain myself I would probably end up spending the night or the month in jail for my actions.

It is their right, but it is also the instinct of many a man to not stand for such offensive desecration of our flag.

 

[Sir Jack Napes]

If it was a woman that offended you, would you, with pleasure, beat her senseless too?

 

[Sitting Duck]

I would also be inclined, if the circumstances were right, to be willing to spend the night (or the month) in jail to have the pleasure of beating a flag-burner senseless. I would be willing to break the law to break the nose of someone who would destroy the flag -- for when they destroy our flag, they destroy a monument to those who fought and died for our freedom, and they destroy a monument to the great, prosperous, and tremendous Republic which we have established.

I have sympathy for your position but I don't think symbols should ever be held as more important than human beings.

What personally offends me is that a good many of the american flags this amendment would protect are actually made in China:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0701/p01s03-usgn.htm

 

[Verv]

If it was a woman that offended you, would you, with pleasure, beat her senseless too?

Good question... No. You should not attack someone who is probably incapable of defending themselves.

To me, the American flag represents Me, my family, my friends, my ancestors -- as a soldier, it has become extremely meaningful to me, and every thing that I have undertaken in some way is pertinent to America, and everything that has ever molded me is pertinent to the Red, White, and Blue.

It would be like if someone was burning an effigy of your loved one.

I'll never forget how proud my grandfather was when I signed up to join the U. S. Army, and how six months later when he died, he could die a bit more happy knowing that his grandson is in line to continue a family tradition of serving the nation.

It is an emotional attachment. Believe it or not, some of us are still raised on mom, baseball, and apple pie, and we still fly flags year round, still barbecue with the neighbors on the 4th of July with enough red, white, and blue to make you vomit.

The pride, honor, tradition, and the Life of me is rooted in the flag, and an attack upon it is an attack upon me.

I think the only thing worse to me would be the desecration of a Bible.

One of the saddest moments of my life was the 7th grade when Bibles were being handed out just off school grounds to my pupils, and several Bibles ended up torn apart and one person took a lighter to the Bible... Honestly, my faith in mankind began to die that day, my heart began beating as fast as a Hummingbird's, my face was flushed and if I could have I would have died on the spot. I was too shocked and utterly destroyed to see such terrible acts when, prior to this day, I thought that most people like me, were Christian, or at least had enough mutual respect not to do such a thing.

And I think that that day, as well as the day that I found out that some of the kids I knew were having sex with each other in the 8th grade, was a day where my soul was wounded and hurt by the State of the World, and total lack of values or spines; I have a pretty big callous and a pretty big drive.

To see a flag burning, tome, would not be shocking so much as expected after seeing the sort of patches people wear on their bags and the sort of Leftist diatribe I have to imbibe. I am no longer a weak kid going through puberty, uncertain of the world; I am familiar with the way of the world, and I am to my rope's end.

I feel like Peter when he cut off the ear of the Roman soldier. I feel imperfect in my Faith because I do not think I have the restraint to stand-by as Christ would want me; I recognize that it is probably quite morally wrong for me to do as much... I think I am going to have to pray and search my soul, and to come to more maturity to deal with the way people can desecrate me and behave...

Honestly, I pray to God for guidance and pray for peace and serenity on this issue -- I am struggling to find out what I should do in these circumstances.

Sweet Christ, we beg for your peace of mind and calmness, and your understanding of the World to come to us and help us understand where our fellow men come from, and to help us deal with the issues that come to us. I ask for a sober mind. Amen.

 

[charmtrap]

I would also be inclined, if the circumstances were right, to be willing to spend the night (or the month) in jail to have the pleasure of beating a flag-burner senseless. I would be willing to break the law to break the nose of someone who would destroy the flag -- for when they destroy our flag, they destroy a monument to those who fought and died for our freedom, and they destroy a monument to the great, prosperous, and tremendous Republic which we have established. I think that I could not contain myself if I saw as much, and that even if I wanted to restrain myself I would probably end up spending the night or the month in jail for my actions.

If you beat someone senseless, you'd likely spend a lot more than a month in jail, and rightly so.

Personally, I don't even want to burn a flag until some internet he-man threatens to beat me senseless if I do.

 

[seebs]

To beat someone senseless for saying something you don't like is to desecrate the republic the flag stands for.

I hate to say it, but:

To me, the American flag represents Me, my family, my friends, my ancestors -- as a soldier, it has become extremely meaningful to me, and every thing that I have undertaken in some way is pertinent to America, and everything that has ever molded me is pertinent to the Red, White, and Blue.

This ends up sounding like idolatry. If you would harm a person for failing to respect a symbol, then your love for that symbol has trumped your love for the commandments of God, and I think this is idolatry.

 

[toxiciridescence]

The flag has been flown in the faces of people in this country to inspire them to hate others. It disgusts me when I see something like a "God Bless America" Bumper sticker with an American Flag background. Why? Because God should bless everyone, everywhere. Not some land between imaginary lines. The flag has lately created an "us vs. them" mentality, when I don't see that there is a distinction between "us" and "them" because there shouldn't be. We are all people of the world, and a piece of cloth seems to put into the hearts of men a desire to separate ourselves from the rest of God's beautiful creation.

I, for one, support flag burning, or any desecration of the flag, because people take notice. I believe that cities should be able to dictate that a flag may not be burned on the steps of the schoolhouses for safety, sure. But I think that if one should believe that they had something to gain through burning a flag, then so be it.

 

[Gracchus]

How dare anyone burn our holy flag! After all didn't Jesus say, "Blessed are the warmakers, for they shall be called the children of god"? Errr...well, anyway, to burn our flag is to show disrespect to our god-appointed leaders, who are just trying to make a buck, and our holy fighting men and women, who are aiding them in this holy cause.

HOLY! HOLY! HOLY!

How dare they blaspheme, who say only god is holy!?

I say that we could prevent this descration by making all flags legal tender. The biggest denominations we be flown by the most patriotic citizens, so we could easily discern the slackers and traitors. Any body burning a flag then, would be so obviously crazy, that no one would dare say a word if we locked them up and threw away the key.

 

[rebel_conservative]

Why should you care so much about this proposed amendment? It infringes on freedom of speech by placing restrictions on the First Amendment. It also sets the stage for the government to restrict other speech it might disagree with. What’s next? Amending the Constitution to prevent people from criticizing the President during times of war?

this is a pernicious lie. the idea that this will lead to further restriction of free speech is baseless.

this Amendment is dead in the water. Congress can not pass an Amendment to the US Constitution unilaterally. to amend the Constitution, it would require the Amendment to pass both Houses with a 2/3 majority, 290 Representatives and 67 Senators. AND 3/4 of the State legislatures to agree, that is 38 State Legislatures. you only need is 13 states to oppose it, and it will not pass.

 

[charmtrap]

this Amendment is dead in the water. Congress can not pass an Amendment to the US Constitution unilaterally. to amend the Constitution, it would require the Amendment to pass both Houses with a 2/3 majority, 290 Representatives and 67 Senators. AND 3/4 of the State legislatures to agree, that is 38 State Legislatures. you only need is 13 states to oppose it, and it will not pass.

The fact that it won't pass is no reason not to oppose it strenuously.

 

[seebs]

this is a pernicious lie. the idea that this will lead to further restriction of free speech is baseless.

It may not successfully do so, but that is its clear intent.

The material I snipped about whether or not this will pass is totally irrelevant to the question of what its implications are or would be.

 

[lucid42day]

I got this email today and thought it would make a good topic.

Why is the term "flag desecration" so close to that other word, "crisis?" You'd think they were somehow related, or something.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

Its offensive but legal. The first amendment isn't meant to protect popular speech, or it would be unnecessary. It is supposed to protect speech that is unpopular or offensive to people.

 

[lucid42day]

I would also be inclined, if the circumstances were right, to be willing to spend the night (or the month) in jail to have the pleasure of beating a flag-burner senseless. I would be willing to break the law to break the nose of someone who would destroy the flag -- for when they destroy our flag, they destroy a monument to those who fought and died for our freedom, and they destroy a monument to the great, prosperous, and tremendous Republic which we have established.

If it feels good, do it, right? Or is it a moral absolute that it is okay for you to beat someone senseless for doing something you believe should be perfectly legal? My mind reels.

 

[Marissa]

I would also be inclined, if the circumstances were right, to be willing to spend the night (or the month) in jail to have the pleasure of beating a flag-burner senseless. I would be willing to break the law to break the nose of someone who would destroy the flag -- for when they destroy our flag, they destroy a monument to those who fought and died for our freedom, and they destroy a monument to the great, prosperous, and tremendous Republic which we have established. I think that I could not contain myself if I saw as much, and that even if I wanted to restrain myself I would probably end up spending the night or the month in jail for my actions.

Simply because someone disagrees with you?

Gosh, you're full of yourself.

 

[Verv]

I am catching a lot of flack because I would attack someone -- I would do it because it is an attack on me to burn the flag; for it is not a mere piece of cloth but it is a collective representation of our state. I do not htink that in any way is it idolatrous, being that it is not bein worshipped or considered as a Holy & Sacred thing, but rather it is being used as a representative symbol of our nation.

And I would fight somebody because it is the most offensive thing, to me, to do such a thing. But apparently that would make me an internet he-man (lol).

I am a flawed person who is often very angry, and I have in fact been struggling my whole life to reach a happy median between my emotions and feelings and my religion, being that one leads me in one direction, and another in the other. I am a 'hot head,' if you will, and when someone makes such a personal attack on the Flag it becomes immediatley disgusting to me.

Yes, every nation should be blessed and yes, everyone has rights; and yes, it is wrong to make violence on someone who wishes peace and it is only justifiable to fight someone who is using physical aggression. I could never beat someone who was cowering.

However, in a circumstance where a very physical desecration of an item that I adore and represents me and myself, it is disrespectful on such levels that one could view it as a declaration against me & mine, and thus I am emotionally inclined to want to fight.

Is it wrong? I think so, I think that it could be wrong for me to do as much, and in the future I will pray to have the serenity necessary to confront my enemies in a better means. But such is incomprehensibly offensive to me, on such base levels, that confronting the person with violence seems borderline instinctual.

To me a flag-burner is someone who desires to dismantle our nation or so utterly change the face of it that it is... Ugh, you know.

But yes, you are right, and I do repent for the feelings that I have (for thinking so negatively is like behaving so negatively), and on a philosophical level I will admit it as a ground that I cannot defend.

 

[El Brujo]

jmverville, keep this in mind... Francis Scott Key watched an attack on the US Flag and instead of wanting to do violence against someone, he wrote The Star Spangled-Banner.

 

[rebel_conservative]

Its offensive but legal. The first amendment isn't meant to protect popular speech, or it would be unnecessary. It is supposed to protect speech that is unpopular or offensive to people.

but burning the flag isn't speech

 

[Sir Jack Napes]

but burning the flag isn't speech

First Amendment speech includes expressive conduct.