Flag Desecration Amendment Crisis

[Milla]

I am a flawed person who is often very angry, and I have in fact been struggling my whole life to reach a happy median between my emotions and feelings and my religion, being that one leads me in one direction, and another in the other. I am a 'hot head,' if you will, and when someone makes such a personal attack on the Flag it becomes immediatley disgusting to me.

If your feelings are so violent, maybe you need to stop trying to find a "happy median" for them and learn how to control them all together instead of coming up with justifications for your violent rage.

 

[lucid42day]

I am catching a lot of flack because I would attack someone -- I would do it because it is an attack on me to burn the flag; for it is not a mere piece of cloth but it is a collective representation of our state. I do not htink that in any way is it idolatrous, being that it is not bein worshipped or considered as a Holy & Sacred thing, but rather it is being used as a representative symbol of our nation.

And I would fight somebody because it is the most offensive thing, to me, to do such a thing. But apparently that would make me an internet he-man (lol).

I think what really confuses me is that to me the flag is just an object. Burning it or trampling it or whatever is (or should be) protected speech. Sure, it's foolish and probably unproductive. So's Congress. I can't figure out how it's an attack on you. To me it's merely someone trying to get attention. Beating the pulp out of someone just seems like a way to service your pride with a really thin veneer of moral justification.

Besides, in my mind someone who feels the need to turn to flag burning to communicate is not in the strongest position to begin with. If I can borrow words of yours from another thread, if it is never right to mock the weak why is it ok to pulverise them?

I am a flawed person who is often very angry, and I have in fact been struggling my whole life to reach a happy median between my emotions and feelings and my religion, being that one leads me in one direction, and another in the other. I am a 'hot head,' if you will, and when someone makes such a personal attack on the Flag it becomes immediatley disgusting to me.

Understood. I'm a very calm person by nature and rarely get angry. I don't feel myself or my nation diminished by some yahoo burning a piece of cloth somewhere. I feel my calmness is enhanced by a firm suspicion that after the races we all sort of get the same oat bag, if you know what I mean.

But yes, you are right, and I do repent for the feelings that I have (for thinking so negatively is like behaving so negatively), and on a philosophical level I will admit it as a ground that I cannot defend.

Knowing is half the battle, GI Joe.

 

[seebs]

I am catching a lot of flack because I would attack someone -- I would do it because it is an attack on me to burn the flag; for it is not a mere piece of cloth but it is a collective representation of our state. I do not htink that in any way is it idolatrous, being that it is not bein worshipped or considered as a Holy & Sacred thing, but rather it is being used as a representative symbol of our nation.

Uh-huh. And statues of Zeus weren't gods, they were just symbols.

This is idolatry pure and simple.

Furthermore, what gives you the idea that someone "attacking" you gives you the right to beat them senseless? My own religion teaches that, if someone attacks us, we must forgive them and love them, rather than fighting back.

This alleged "attack" on you appears to be able to be repeated thousands of times without requiring so much as a band-aid in treatment. Perhaps your escalation to physical violence which could permanently cripple, or even kill, is not entirely justified, even if we grant some right to retaliation?

I suggest considering the reasons for which God claimed vengeance for God alone, and not for the rest of us. I think you've already got it figured out...

 

[Verv]

(1) It is not idolatry. It is recognizing the flag as a symbol of the nation, and the desecration of the flag to be a symbolic desecration of the nation. The flag is an important representation of our nation, and to figuratively burn it is the act of figuratively burning our nation, is it not?

I am not treating it as a god.

Would it not be offensive if someone took a picture of your mother and burnt it? Or a Bible? Of course.

 

[parousia70]

Would it not be offensive if someone took a picture of your mother and burnt it? Or a Bible? Of course.

Who gets to decide what you find offensive?

Should I have the right to choose what you find offensive and what you don't?

If I don't have that right to make that decision for you, who does?

If it is your decision, and you won't let anyone else make it for you, then why on earth would you hold someone else responsible for it?

 

[Milla]

(1) It is not idolatry. It is recognizing the flag as a symbol of the nation, and the desecration of the flag to be a symbolic desecration of the nation. The flag is an important representation of our nation, and to figuratively burn it is the act of figuratively burning our nation, is it not?

But the word here is figuratively. They're not literally burning the nation. No one is actually being harmed. Until, of course, you start pummelling the burner.

Would it not be offensive if someone took a picture of your mother and burnt it? Or a Bible? Of course.

Of course. But someone offending you is not an excuse to pound them. If someone burnt a Bible or a picture of my mom, or whatever, in front of me, I would tell them why it is wrong to do that, and try to find out their reason for doing it, reasonable interaction being the best path to reconciliation.

 

[Verv]

There is a basic modicum of moral behavior and respectful actions that you can take, and I feel that those who would burn a flag are extraordinarily wrong, incorrect, immoral, etc. ad nauseum.

How would it not be offensive to symbolically destroy a symbol of our nation? Or your mother? Or God?

I hold someoen else responsible for the decision when it is in the clear context of a flag burning protest (though on occasion a flag may be burned, as it is prescribed that flags which touch the ground should be burned).

 

[Gracchus]

(1) It is not idolatry. It is recognizing the flag as a symbol of the nation, and the desecration of the flag to be a symbolic desecration of the nation. The flag is an important representation of our nation, and to figuratively burn it is the act of figuratively burning our nation, is it not?

"Desecrate" is from the same Latin root as "sacred". Arguably, reality may be sacred, but to transfer the sacredness of a reality to the symbol is idolatry, and leads to the kind of violence that you admit you feel.

I am not treating it as a god.

It is cloth. It is a rallying point for soldiers, like the eagles of the Roman legions, and inherits their semi-devine status.

Would it not be offensive if someone took a picture of your mother and burnt it? Or a Bible? Of course.

Well, I don't doubt that you would find it offensive. That just means that someone knows how to push your buttons and put you in a non-rational state. That makes you an easy tool to the hand of tyrants and murderers.

 

[toxiciridescence]

Our nation is destroying itself through hatred towards each other and everyone outside of us. We don't need a flag and a lighter to do that.

 

[Milla]

There is a basic modicum of moral behavior and respectful actions that you can take, and I feel that those who would burn a flag are extraordinarily wrong, incorrect, immoral, etc. ad nauseum.

How would it not be offensive to symbolically destroy a symbol of our nation? Or your mother? Or God?

I hold someoen else responsible for the decision when it is in the clear context of a flag burning protest (though on occasion a flag may be burned, as it is prescribed that flags which touch the ground should be burned).

So it's offensive. Why does that make it okay to beat someone down about it?

 

[Verv]

I cannot comment anymore on the issue of the desecration of the flag, and I should have never commented to begin with.

I think it is a trap for a person like me (not that the thread creator was setting a trap for jmverville, but rather that the entire series of discussion pertinent to things along these lines are a trap for me in general).

I am a very flawed person, and have committed very excessive sins and without help of God I am liable to commit more -- please pray for me if you Believe, as we should pray for everyone.

 

[rebel_conservative]

whilst I certainly don't agree with it, I don't think it should be illegal to burn the flag (except in enclosed spaces etc - obviously).

this Amendment will not get the required number of states. it will certainly fail. I think that the GOP are just playing political games here. they know it will fail, but plan to use "you support flag-burning" against Democrat opponents in 2006 - hoping to pick up another 5 Senate seats to get over the fillibuster, lol

 

[Sycophant]

I'd be interested to learn a bit more about what might be counted as desecration, because technically, the stylised use of a flag in a graphic, with text imposed over it and the like would often be considered disrespectful to the flag. This would include the flag in the background of the ACLU site linked to, those on many political sites, posters and signs, and of course the many pro-USA bumper stickers. All those uses could reasonably be seen as a form of desecration.

 

[starchild]

It amuses me no end that so often it's the same people who think automobile seatbelt laws or motorcycle helmet laws or laws slowing the sales of guns are bad things - too 'big brother' - laws only to protect...

Think it's fine and dandy to add a constitutional amendment restricting free speech.

I'd rather not burn the flag. I'd rather other people not burned the flag. But I think the best way to arrange that is to give them positive reasons why the flag should not be burned (because the country is a good one, one full of promise) rather than negatives...

 

[jgarden]

Think of all the nations that wouldn't tolerate burning the flag and then ask yourself how many of them you would choose to live in. The very act of burning a flag can be seen as a tribute to American's commitment to protect personal freedoms no matter how onerous.