Five Misconceptions About Calvinism

jimmyjimmy · Jul 27, 2017

Open Heart said:
Like I said, we are not totally depraved. All it takes for us not to enter heaven is for us not to be perfect.

Totally depraved means that sin has had an effect on every part of us. It does not mean that we act in the worst possible way.

So far, your understanding of Calvinism is just the same as most everyone's - wrong. Don't you think it's fooling to argue against something that you don't even understand?

Meowzltov · Jul 27, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Totally depraved means that sin has had an effect on every part of us. It does not mean that we act in the worst possible way.

So far, your understanding of Calvinism is just Tham as most everyone's - wrong. Don't you think it's fooling to argue against something that you don't even understand?

I understand Total Depravity perfectly. It means it permeates your being, that you no longer have any good nature.

And I disagree with that. I believe we have an evil inclination and a good inclination -- original sin, and the image of God.

Meowzltov · Jul 27, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
As I said earlier, that's not a position that reflects what the vast majority of Calvinists think.

We think that God saves some and leaves the rest to their own desires. Men who are saved have no one to thank but God, and men who are lost have no one to blame but themselves. They weren't coerced into their choices.

You are not being honest. Calvinism teaches that there is no free will.

Hammster · Jul 27, 2017

Open Heart said:
You are not being honest. Calvinism teaches that there is no free will.

We do teach that man has free agency. He can do or not do, as it pertains to his nature.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 27, 2017

Open Heart said:
You are not being honest. Calvinism teaches that there is no free will.

Wrong again, I'm afraid.

Men are free to make choices, but only capable of making choices according to their nature. We can't choose to do something against our nature, like breath water, for instance.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 27, 2017

Open Heart said:
I believe we have an evil inclination and a good inclination -- original sin, and the image of God.

Depending on how you define, "good", Calvin does, too. If good means that people love their children, feed the poor, open hospitals, fight cancer. . . then Calvin and I find no disagreement with you.

I'm saying this for your benefit: learn about the doctrine before you attempt to debate it.

Meowzltov · Jul 27, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Depending on how you define, "good", Calvin does, too. If good means that people love their children, feed the poor, open hospitals, fight cancer. . . then Calvin and I find no disagreement with you.

I'm saying this for your benefit: learn about the doctrine before you attempt to debate it.

By good I mean obey God and seek God. Calvinism teaches that man cannot seek God on his own, without grace.

Please stop saying that I don't understand Calvinism. I may not be a total expert, but I certainly have the basics down. I began studying the Calvinism/Arminianism debate when I was in junior high with my father, who had a Doctor of Divinity. We were comparing the doctrine of the Evangelical Free to the Church of the Nazarene, both churches I had attended.

Meowzltov · Jul 27, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Wrong again, I'm afraid.

Men are free to make choices, but only capable of making choices according to their nature. We can't choose to do something against our nature, like breath water, for instance.

You know that we are talking about our moral choices. Enough with the non-sequiturs.

Two words: irresistible grace.

Meowzltov · Jul 27, 2017

Hammster said:
We do teach that man has free agency. He can do or not do, as it pertains to his nature.

Irresistible Grace.

Hammster · Jul 27, 2017

Open Heart said:
Irresistible Grace.

Non response.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 28, 2017

Open Heart said:
By good I mean obey God and seek God. Calvinism teaches that man cannot seek God on his own, without grace.

Firstly, the Roman Catholic Church teaches the same thing. Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. v).

Secondly, Jesus, a slightly higher authority than Rome, said this on the subject: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. . ." (John 6:44)

Thirdly, I think that a better way of describing this (men can't come to God unaided) is that men *will not* seek God. It's a problem of the will. Yes, men are incapable, but it's rooted in their unwillingness.

Open Heart said:
Please stop saying that I don't understand Calvinism. I may not be a total expert, but I certainly have the basics down. I began studying the Calvinism/Arminianism debate when I was in junior high with my father, who had a Doctor of Divinity.

Learning Protestantism, let alone, Calvinism from a Roman Catholic is going to leave you lacking in true understanding on the matter.

I've learned Catholicism from Catholics; I've learned Arminianism from Arminians; I've learned Reformed theology from Calvinists. I've lived with all three groups for decades each, so when I say that I know their views, I don't only know their written doctrinal statements, I know how they actually live out those doctrines, and I can tell you that men don't always live out their written theology. Arminians pray like Calvinists, for instance.

Meowzltov · Jul 28, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Firstly, the Roman Catholic Church teaches the same thing. Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. v).

Secondly, Jesus, a slightly higher authority than Rome, said this on the subject: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. . ." (John 6:44)

Thirdly, I think that a better way of describing this (men can't come to God unaided) is that men *will not* seek God. It's a problem of the will. Yes, men are incapable, but it's rooted in their unwillingness.

It's not a matter of God not offering grace. It's a matter that we must cooperate with that grace. And some choose to of their own free will. That comes from the image of God which is still in us. Is that part of Calvinism? Because that sort of cooperation and free assent is certainly part of Catholicism -- not irresistible grace. (CCC 1993)

Meowzltov · Jul 28, 2017

Hammster said:
Non response.

If grace is irresistible, we do not have free will to say no. Thus my response was a legitimate response.

EmSw · Jul 28, 2017

Open Heart said:
If grace is irresistible, we do not have free will to say no. Thus my response was a legitimate response.

I agree. I wonder how one falls from grace if it irresistible?

Galatians 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Meowzltov · Jul 28, 2017

EmSw said:
I agree. I wonder how one falls from grace if it irresistible?

Galatians 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Great verse.

Hammster · Jul 28, 2017

Open Heart said:
If grace is irresistible, we do not have free will to say no. Thus my response was a legitimate response.

By this response, you show that you do not understand Reformed Theology and the misnamed "irresistible grace".

Meowzltov · Jul 28, 2017

Hammster said:
By this response, you show that you do not understand Reformed Theology and the misnamed "irresistible grace".

Baloney. Irrestible grace means just that. If God extends his grace to you, you have no choice but to accept. You do not have the free will to say no--all resistance will eventually be overcome. This is basic. I say that if you disagree with that statement, it is you that doesn't understand Calvinism.

Hammster · Jul 28, 2017

Open Heart said:
Baloney. Irrestible grace means just that. If God extends his grace to you, you have no choice but to accept. You do not have the free will to say no--all resistance will eventually be overcome. This is basic. I say that if you disagree with that statement, it is you that doesn't understand Calvinism.

Doubling down?

How about this. If you are sure you understand Calvinism, explain irresistible grace in a way a Calvinist would.

Foxfyre · Jul 28, 2017

Hammster said:
By this response, you show that you do not understand Reformed Theology and the misnamed "irresistible grace".

Forgive me, but I just can't take seriously your and jimmyjimmy's argument when your standard line for what you cannot counter is 'the other person doesn't understand Calvinism and/or shouldn't be arguing what he/she doesn't understand.'

If I was judging this debate, Open Heart would have already been declared the winner based on that one point alone.

sdowney717 · Jul 28, 2017

Open Heart said:
I understand Total Depravity perfectly. It means it permeates your being, that you no longer have any good nature.

And I disagree with that. I believe we have an evil inclination and a good inclination -- original sin, and the image of God.

Even evil natured people know how to give good gifts to their kids.
But they are still evil as Jesus states. Jesus also says only God is good.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 12:34
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Them 'being evil' Christ speaks to their nature as evil.
None will come to Christ in belief unless God regenerates the spirit so they are no longer of evil, but of God.

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