Fish who won't evolve.

[Ana the Ist]

I have heard the opposition say that feelings, or emotions, doesn't prove Gods power. They say emotions are not exclusive to Christians only, and are not evidence of Gods power.

There is however a difference between regular emotions and Gods power. Gods power is love, and it leaves you strengthened in such a way that you will know its power. You will not be able to deny it. We call it faith. IT can be like a taste of heaven itself. You have no idea what it feels like. Its not just some random emotion, i can assure you. Faith picked me off the floor of despair. It picked me up from a pool of depression, hate, anger, bitterness, and utter misery. I felt God love and it strengthened me in a very profound way. Show me a scientist, doctor or politician that can do that. They cant.

You say that emotions are not evidence. You however cannot measure the power or substance of love, so how can you possibly exclude it? God is holy, and he will not allow man to put him under a microscope. We must know our place in life, and God will surely have the last word.

Your emotions reflect what's inside you...not something external.

 

[Extraneous]

Your emotions reflect what's inside you...not something external.

That's not true, Our emotions reflect outside forces all the time.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That's not true, Our emotions reflect outside forces all the time.

Your emotions react to your perceptions...which aren't necessarily accurate.

 

[Extraneous]

Your emotions react to your perceptions...which aren't necessarily accurate.

Thats true. I totally believe what you say. The bible teaches us this as well. It tells us that the world follows an illusion. It says that there is way that seems right to mankind, but it leads to death.

 

[Extraneous]

Imagine what that means. It means we dont see our own mortality. We dont see own weakness. We live in an illusion. Its right there, do you see it?

 

[Chris B]

Emotions are an extension of our soul. We actually deny ourselves when we deny our emotions. You deny that you exist. You are merely an animal at this point, nothing more. Your will and desires don't matter logically. You are just a robot.

Interesting. I would have that almost inverted.
I do not actually deny my emotions, but by golly do I work to avoid giving them uncritical free rein, or unchallenged precedence in determining truth!
(Apart from that of announcing their own presence, of course.)
They are more "animal me" than my ability, hard won sometimes, to think *dispassionately* and consider that the perspectives and experiences of others may be different from mine, and will need thought to come to understand.

Yes, I have had overwhelming experiences and powerful emotions.
But does that settle that these are beyond doubt and question what they proclaim themselves to be, or are taken to be?
No. No more than a spoken argument is more valid for being shouted or delivered with high emotion or vehemence.
(Though many still fall even for that.)

Add to this that sincere and honest individuals have had experiences that have utterly convinced them, too, but left them arriving at positions completely different one from another.
If this personal, existential, route to truth is simply, reliably, right, how can this be?

It's hard to say when one has had such seemingly positive and clear moments but why, apart from special pleading, should I privilege my sincere experiential moments over the sincere experiential moments of others?
I find this a very necessary thought. Even if my emotions aren't keen on it, quite a lot of the time.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Imagine what that means. It means we dont see our own mortality. We dont see own weakness. We live in an illusion. Its right there, do you see it?

Some do...some don't. Some are so scared of their deaths they refuse to accept it...and believe they will exist forever. Some don't want the responsibility of morality and want to believe that it's a product of their god. Some folks can't deal with the uncertainty of finding meaning to their own life...so they need to believe that meaning is created for them.

Are these the kinds of illusions you're referring to? If so, yes...I see them.

 

[Extraneous]

Interesting. I would have that almost inverted.
I do not actually deny my emotions, but by golly do I work to avoid giving them uncritical free rein, or unchallenged precedence in determining truth!
(Apart from that of announcing their own presence, of course.)
They are more "animal me" than my ability, hard won sometimes, to think *dispassionately* and consider that the perspectives and experiences of others may be different from mine, and will need thought to come to understand.

Yes, I have had overwhelming experiences and powerful emotions.
But does that settle that these are beyond doubt and question what they proclaim themselves to be, or are taken to be?
No. No more than a spoken argument is more valid for being shouted or delivered with high emotion or vehemence.
(Though many still fall even for that.)

Add to this that sincere and honest individuals have had experiences that have utterly convinced them, too, but left them arriving at positions completely different one from another.
If this personal, existential, route to truth is simply, reliably, right, how can this be?

It's hard to say when one has had such seemingly positive and clear moments but why, apart from special pleading, should I privilege my sincere experiential moments over the sincere experiential moments of others?
I find this a very necessary thought. Even if my emotions aren't keen on it, quite a lot of the time.

Im well familiar with emotions. I've know the roller coaster ride of depression, anxiety, fear, joy, confusion. I have known it well. I have also known the peace from it. Science cannot even begin to probe the mystery of the mind and soul. They cannot cure mental illness nor can they understand it. Just because science cant understand something, doesn't mean its not real.

 

[Chris B]

Thats true. I totally believe what you say. The bible teaches us this as well. It tells us that the world follows an illusion. It says that there is way that seems right to mankind, but it leads to death.

Correct. it does say that. Now, is it correct in saying that?
Not least in saying that there is a way that does not lead to death. There's an alternate possibility for a proffered illusion, unless it can be definitively ruled out by some means.

Imagine what that means. It means we dont see our own mortality. We dont see own weakness. We live in an illusion. Its right there, do you see it?

I see my own mortality. I don't need the bible or Christianity for that. If it isn't intuitively obvious then Shakespeare's poor player fretting and strutting on stage before disappearing for ever gets the idea across quite nicely.
I'm aware of my own weakness (in some degree at least) I know not to claim perfection in perception.
Which is why doubt can be so important as a virtue.

And never forget: the best illusion is the one you have not yet spotted, and still regard as real, or true.
(And did anyone say that there's only one level of illusion? To dispel one level of illusion is no assurance of having arrived at a point past illusion.)

Chris.

 

[Chris B]

Im well familiar with emotions. I've know the roller coaster ride of depression, anxiety, fear, joy, confusion. I have known it well. I have also known the peace from it. Science cannot even begin to probe the mystery of the mind and soul. They cannot cure mental illness nor can they understand it. Just because science cant understand something, doesn't mean its not real.

"Science cannot even begin to probe the mystery of the mind and soul. "
Want to bet? On the second I'll take for now the hypothesis that "soul" is an artificial mental concept, representing no reality beyond that.
"They cannot cure mental illness nor can they understand it."
Want to bet? I've seen that done plenty a time.

"Just because science cant understand something, doesn't mean its not real."
Correct. But it doesn't mean that it is real, either.
So science can set out to see if it is something real, and how it may be understood.
Science has a nice list of things filed under "we're working on it."
Knowing that something is not understood is itself a first level of knowledge.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not “Eureka” but “That's funny...” —Isaac Asimov

 

[Extraneous]

I've seen that done plenty a time.

I've seen it fail many times.

 

[Extraneous]

Correct. it does say that. Now, is it correct in saying that?
Not least in saying that there is a way that does not lead to death. There's an alternate possibility for a proffered illusion, unless it can be definitively ruled out by some means.



I seem my own mortality. I don't need the bible or Christianity for that. If it isn't intuitively obvious then Shakespeare's poor player fretting and strutting on stage before disappearing for ever gets the idea across quite nicely.
I'm aware of my own weakness (in some degree at least) I know not to claim perfection in perception.
Which is why doubt can be so important as a virtue.

And never forget: the best illusion is the one you have not yet spotted, and still regard as real, or true.
(And did anyone say that there's only one level of illusion? To dispel one level of illusion is no assurance of having arrived at a point past illusion.)

Chris.

I have been through the hardships of life, i'm no stranger to how the world works. I know about spiritualism because i know about the pain of the soul. I know the deceptions of this world as well, the ones we all face inevitably.. There are no illusions left in my life. If only you could feel what i've seen. I have seen it all. Even what i didn't personally live with, i saw even that. I have seen the darkness of life. Illusions are for people who have strength to imagine. I have seen tired and hopeless. Seen the darkness of life.

 

[Extraneous]

Some do...some don't. Some are so scared of their deaths they refuse to accept it...and believe they will exist forever. Some don't want the responsibility of morality and want to believe that it's a product of their god. Some folks can't deal with the uncertainty of finding meaning to their own life...so they need to believe that meaning is created for them.

Are these the kinds of illusions you're referring to? If so, yes...I see them.

I find the opposite to be true. People fear death less when they live by faith.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Sales and persuasion is indeed a very fine art.

Especially if what you are trying to sell is snake-oil ;-)

 

[DogmaHunter]

You however cannot measure the power or substance of love, so how can you possibly exclude it?

1. your assertion that we can't feel love, is noted.

2. if you can't demonstrate this power to us, then how do you expect us to believe you?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Emotions are an extension of our soul. We actually deny ourselves when we deny our emotions. You deny that you exist.

Your assertion that we are "denying" our emotions, is once again noted.

You are merely an animal at this point, nothing more. Your will and desires don't matter logically. You are just a robot.

Your condescension, and superiority complex, is also noted.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Imagine what that means. It means we dont see our own mortality. We dont see own weakness. We live in an illusion. Its right there, do you see it?

Nope, I don't see it.

Perhaps you are just imagining things?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Science cannot even begin to probe the mystery of the mind and soul. They cannot cure mental illness nor can they understand it.

Really now?
Then how was my depressed friend cured by a psychologist?

Another friend of mine suffered from chronic psychotic episodes. A psychiatrist helped him get rid of that as well, with anti-psychotic medicine and some cognitive therapy.

Some things, like severe schizofrenia, are dificult to treat and in some cases impossible to cure (at this point), yes. That doesn't make it supernatural.

Just like a terminal cancer doesn't mean a supernatural entity is behind it either.

Sometimes mental illness goes away by itself as well when it is just a temporary imbalance in brain chemistry, which can be caused by any number of things.

None of this requires supernatural shenannigans to be explained.
In fact, supernatural shenannigans has no explanatory power whatsoever. Not in the matter of mental illness, nore in any other subject area.

 

[Extraneous]

Nope, I don't see it.

Perhaps you are just imagining things?

Yes, that's it. Im imagining things. God is not real and us humans will die without having purpose or fulfillment. You win. (i think)

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes, that's it. Im imagining things. God is not real and us humans will die without having purpose or fulfillment. You win. (i think)

It sounds like your entire case is based on an appeal to emotion. Are you aware that this is a fallacy?